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#543158 01/19/22 09:33 AM
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As the new care taker for my family property, which includes an extensive water system, I am happy now to be a part of this excellent pond forum!

The pond system that I am tasked with covers about 80 acres of land in MidMichigan. On that land, we have a defunct tree farm, a natural swath of hardwood forest, a natural ravine about 40ft deep, over two miles of trails, an extensive collection of equipment including a 50ft reach excavator, tree spades, and even our own topsoil screening operation.

The extent of the property was previously designed and managed by my grandfather. Though I was around while he made all his improvements I am only now beginning to understand the true genius of his engineering.

Our primary pond is 4 acres and I am told may be as deep as 20ft in spots. It was converted from a bog, the excavated peat was converted to top soil with the addition of sand (also from our property) until a layer of gravel was uncovered. It was then lined with clay and allowed to fill. Water comes from two springfed sources, mainly from a channel to the southeast that fills then flows over a weir but also from a preexisting pond to the northeast that we have only partial ownership and keep dammed off. After water enters from the channel, it flows across the pond to an exit dam on the northwest corner where it dumps into the first portion of the ravine. Water in the ravine is typically shallow, under 1 foot until the first retention pond where it flows through a second dam, under a trail, then continues to a final retention pond and third dam under another trail. At that point, a 15ft waterfall was created and water continues to a marsh at the northwest edge of our property.

To the west of the pond there is a backup drainage pond, long and narrow, that is connected by another dam under the trail. For the most part, all the dams self manage and consist of culverts partially blocked by concrete slab weirs that we may control if necessary using an excavator or loader.

In recent years I have noticed an increase of muck in our primary pond and have been examining how to mitigate this. Cost estimates for aeration equipment has been over $9k from "The Pond Guy". Though we may have much in terms of property and equipment, cash is in short supply. I was able to uncover one method that my grandfather used when he designed it; a pump system that pulls water from the primary pond and supplied a fountain in the channel. That combined with a small waterfall coming off the channel's weir seems to have been his solution. But since the fountainhead was sunk, most of the piping and electrical are underground, and the electric water pump is missing I have not yet been able to revive this system.

Aside from the water features, I have had my hands full with other tasks; I uncovered a small-ish pontoon boat in the woods and have been making slow progress refurbishing it. It was completely entailed in trees and vines, one log was full of water, the motor is missing and the aluminum top structure had multiple cracks. I have since drained and patched the log, cleared the top structure completely and am working on fitting new railings and a couple electric motors. It should make a fine picnic and fishing platform in the future.

I am also working on replacing the dock. The existing dock is beginning to rot a little and the shore where it meets was undermined by muskrats causing it to erode away. Due to this, the shore end of the dock is partially submerged. The dock is only 12ft long and 4ft wide anyway. Fishing on it can be a little claustrophobic if not fishing alone and tying up the pontoon would prove difficult. The new dock will be 30ft long, 5ft wide and have a T-shaped fishing area at the end I will post a sketch of the plan to give a better understanding.

Also, this past summer I took some steps to revive the tree farm by clearing a few acres and planting some fruit trees.Though the previous tree farm never had fruit trees other than crab apples and what looks like some sort of cherry (not sure), I thought it would be nice to be able to harvest our own fruits for family get-togethers or simply grab an apple after a hard days work. Being that I am also new to farming, this has been a true learning experience and I struggled a little at first to figure out how to make my first trees successful. So far, I have only planted 10 trees (apples, pears and peaches) but I plan on planting another 10 this summer (more apples, plums and cherries) along with some small fruits like strawberries, raspberries, blueberries, grapes and even some rhubarb. If all goes well, I think we may see fruit in just another couple years. Fingers crossed!

Anyhow, I will post an annotated satellite photo of the property for reference. Hopefully those who are more accustomed to managing acreage can lend advice on how to manage it better. Having been a designer and builder for the past few decades, I look forward to giving my own advice to those who need it too. Thanks!

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Here are the pictures:

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Thanks for posting my pics.
How did you do that?
The forum help seems to indicate I would need a website or something.
Is that how you did it?

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When I right click on one of the images, I get an option to "Copy Image Link." So, left click on that.

Then you will PASTE that in between these... [img] paste here with no spaces [/img]

The "IMG" both need to be capitalized.

Last edited by Sunil; 01/19/22 11:55 AM.

Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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The pictures have to be posted somewhere on the web. I use imgur to host the pictures I post.

As for aeration, how far away is electric from the pond that you want to aerate?


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Welcome and thanks for the great post!! I am always happy to find other Michigan pondmeisters joining the forum. While I can't help you with fruit trees, we have had good success with rhubarb, blackberries, strawberries, raspberries, and blueberries on a small scale here in the greater Grand Rapids area.

We have a tiny pond but as you are finding out, it is all work to keep up. There are lots of posts on how to make your own bottom mounted diffusers and dozens of good posts that explain why you will not meet your goals without bottom mounted diffusers (as opposed to a fountain) Your pond is deep so you will need some guidance on how many diffusers and how deep to place them (which also means you size your compressor based on how many runs, how long the weighted air line runs are, what diameter the weighted line is etc.) Many people have sourced a rebuilt gast compressor, built their own manifold with pressure gauges, sourced tubing, and did it themselves.

You said you have access to long reach excavators, so wouldn't it make sense to just use those to rapidly demuck your ponds as far as you can reach and then let the bottom aeration and time slowly take care of what you can from there?

As for pictures, as esshup says you can upload to a website that keeps their 'address' and then link that address back to the forum using the 'full editor' compose button and select the picture icon and paste that specific web location for that picture.

or do as I do and as Sunil suggest, just upload the pictures as attachments to your post. Then you have to take a separate step of going back to your post once it shows up on the forum, open each picture, copy its current link, then go back to edit your original post and in the body of your message type [img] but img in caps, then paste your link, then add the [/img] but in caps. This will then take the attached picture and pull it in the body of your message.

Crazy awkward workaround just to allow inline images. Have no idea why we are in 2022 and still doing 3 steps to get images to show up inline in our posts.

Who will be living on site with you? Will that be your primary residence so you won't have to commute to the location to get time to work and to enjoy?

If you have more questions fire away!

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It's a pain in the ass, but easy enough if you have already put the picture links in the post like canyon c says, and yes, that makes a double effort.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Originally Posted by canyoncreek
...we have had good success with rhubarb, blackberries, strawberries, raspberries, and blueberries on a small scale here in the greater Grand Rapids area.

We already have wild rhubarb, strawberries, raspberries and grapes that grow. I will try to plant purchased varieties of strawberry and raspberry amongst the wild crops. The wild grapes are actually a nuisance so I will attempt to eradicate those the build a fence for the new grapes. I will attempt to relocate the rhubarb and add to that crop. The wild is difficult to get to and looks too much like burdock(?). As for the blueberries, from what I have read, planting those near pines is good practice. But, I may amend some more sand in that area since it is mostly clay now.

Originally Posted by canyoncreek
There are lots of posts on how to make your own bottom mounted diffusers and dozens of good posts that explain why you will not meet your goals without bottom mounted diffusers (as opposed to a fountain) Your pond is deep so you will need some guidance on how many diffusers and how deep to place them (which also means you size your compressor based on how many runs, how long the weighted air line runs are, what diameter the weighted line is etc.) Many people have sourced a rebuilt gast compressor, built their own manifold with pressure gauges, sourced tubing, and did it themselves.

Yes, I have been reading a lot about DIY sub-surface aeration. Getting the quote from the Pond Guy gave me a lot of insight towards the required equipment sizing. I hadn't heard of a "Gast Compressor" yet but I was looking at septic air pumps as a lower cost option. I will look more into the Gast pumps too. I have a decent amount of plumbing experience so that seems straightforward to me. I will be scouring the forum here for more information on constructing the diffusers. Yesterday I searched in hopes of finding info on DIY windmills but no luck. The search here isn't the best for multiple keywords IMO. I might be better just going with AC power anyway but building a windmill from scratch seems like it could be fun.

Originally Posted by canyoncreek
You said you have access to long reach excavators, so wouldn't it make sense to just use those to rapidly demuck your ponds as far as you can reach and then let the bottom aeration and time slowly take care of what you can from there?

We have discussed de-mucking using the excavator. Even at 50' reach we couldn't reach the center but I agree it would probably give us a jumpstart. My dad even suggested dredging it using a couple bulldozers and an huge old dragline bucket we have but that seems a bit extreme. Normally we'd just dig with the excavator in winter while the banks are frozen but I guess there is a problem with the hydro pump that needs to be repaired right now. Hopefully we will get that fixed this spring/summer.

Originally Posted by canyoncreek
Who will be living on site with you? Will that be your primary residence so you won't have to commute to the location to get time to work and to enjoy?

Currently the property is co-owned by my dad and grandmother. I live 30min away from the property but I hope to live there in the near-ish future. I have two brothers to contend with also. Only one of my brothers has shown interest in living there but he is much younger than I am and not yet financially stable enough to take on the costs. I can afford it but without any form of contractual ownership I am hesitant to sink a huge amount of money into the upgrades. I would love to say it's as easy as drawing up a land contract or trust estate but it isn't so in my case. Families are complicated to deal with.

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Originally Posted by esshup
...how far away is electric from the pond that you want to aerate?

I have multiple electrical access points. It's kinda hard to make out in the satellite photo but the main residence is at the southeast corner and we have a few barns nearer to the pond, northwest of the house. There is already a 220v power platform directly east of the house that once supplied the pump for the water fountain. I need to investigate that to ensure it is still safe to use. The barns are fully powered with 200A available. At one point we used a pump from the nearest shore to irrigate the farm but nobody remembers if there was an underground power feed. If there is, its covered in brush now. I found the first power platform while clearing brush near the house; nobody remembered that was there either. I have already cleared over 1000ft of bank from the main road to the barn. I am planning on clearing another 300ft this summer and hoping to uncover a second power source. If not, we have discussed trenching a line to the shore from the nearest barn. Though I would like power at the shore too, I will probably just run airline for the aeration pumps and keep the actual pumps in the barn. I believe it is about 120ft from the barn to the shore. Then if I want power at the dock too, that would be about another 500ft. (I can dream, right?)

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To do a DIY system, there are a few things that you'll have to take into consideration:

Where the deepest part of the pond is.

Total water volume of the pond.

Then if you are going to use Vertex diffusers, you can use this chart to calculate how many diffusers you will need:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

You will want to have a few single membrane bubble (not necessarily Vertex) diffusers (coarser bubbles are better for winter deicing) placed approximately 30 feet out from shore for winter aeration. You will need enough to open water that is between 5% and 10% of the pond surface. Figure if you are shoving a couple of CFM through each of those membranes that they will open an area that is between 20' and 50' in diameter, depending on water depth that they are placed in, bubble size, air volume, ambient temps and snowfall. You want those placed as deep as possible, but no more than 25% of the total pond depth below the surface of the pond.

For summer use, each Vertex diffuser membrane should have (for optimum performance) between 1 and 3 CFM going through each membrane. Minimum is 1/2 CFM.

Use the lifting chart above to determine how many airstations and diffusers you will need if you are going to use Vertex diffusers. You want the total amount of water that is lifted to the surface in the summer to be between 1.15 and 2.5 times the total volume of water in the pond. If you aren't going to use Vertex diffusers, you are on your own to get the data needed to correctly design the system.

You should have a water volume measurement from the aeration company. If not, calculate how many acre feet of water is in the pond (one acre, one foot of water) 1 ac/ft = 325,851 gallons. (rough rule of thumb is 1/2 total depth x surface area = ac/ft.)

You can run both the winter diffusers and summer diffusers when the water temp is above 45-50 degrees F, but only run the winter diffusers (to de-ice part of the pond) when the water temp is below 40°F.

You have to look at the air produced by the compressors at the psi of backpressure that the diffusers will see at the bottom of the pond. Each airstation will need it's own airline, you can't "T" off of an airline underwater to run two airstations. Trust me, it won't work, even if both are the wame depth and the length of run is the same to each one. The differences in the rubber membrane of the diffusers will cause one or the other to flow more air. Figure 0.5 psi backpressure for every foot of water depth over the airstation, and figure 1/2 psi backpressure to open the Vertex diffusers. No, that is not cumulative, say if you have 4 diffusers in 10 feet of water, your compressor will need to supply between 4 and 12 cfm @ 6 psi for the system to work properly.

Gast is a company that makes a LOT of compressors, and they will make compressors for various companies to put their own label on them. Using a septic supply company will possibly get you a cheaper price.

Pay attention to the self weighted airline ID. You will need to take length of run/ID into consideration when looking at the amount of air that each airstation needs. We have run 5/8" ID weighted airline 800 feet to supply a Vertex XL5 airstation but any more than that I'd consider bumping up the ID of the line.

You will need ball valves to control the amount of air going to each airstation, a pop-off valve to protect the compressor, a low pressure gauge to help monitor how the system is running, a cabinet to protect the compressor from the elements, a cooling fan to blow cool air from outside the cabinet over the compressor, a large enough air filter for the compressor that has an element that you can change every 3-4 months, and a GFCI on the electric line feeding the compressor.

There are other things to help fine tune the system, but that should be enough to get you going.

If the compressors are in the barn, you might (depending on temp) still have to put a cooling fan on them to help lower the compressor temps. I would run a minimum of 1" poly line to the remote valve boxes on the shore of the pond, we have run 1 1/4" poly line for larger systems where there was no electric at the pond. Then transition over to the self-sink tubing for in the pond use. My advice is to NOT use the poly tube and try to weigh it down to get it to sink for in-pond use.


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I really appreciate all the advice on the aeration. I have shown this to my family and we are working out the budget now. So far we are realizing that we will likely need to install in phases to keep the cost palatable. I think this would work fine so long as we begin with a single pump in the barn running to a 1" main feed to the shore where we can put a manifold box. The big costs are the pump and the self sink weighted line as far as I can tell. So if we start this way then later acquire another pump plumbed into a combiner manifold at the barn then run additional weighted lines and diffusers as time goes on. I don't believe heat will be an issue. If it is, we can easily deal with that.

Our other goal is to run power to our new dock. Distance is 245ft. to the first outlet on shore then another 72ft to the end of the dock outlet (to charge boat batteries). Power requirement should be 115v15A min. to run small electric tools, radios, lights, etc. (not all at same time). I am thinking this will require minimum 10/3 UF-B buried cable to get to the first outlet (junction) then maybe same cable to get to the shore (42ft) then junction again before going into conduit running the length of the dock (30ft.) Note that this description is slightly different than my previous image depicts. I will try to post a new picture of the electrical plan.

[Linked Image]

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Check the difference in price between #8 and #10 wire. Bigger is better if it's near the upper limit of the #10 due to the length of run aand the projected load. You are correct on the 2 big tickets of the system.


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At that distance, #8 copper is adequate, just, for a 15a circuit.
#12 copper will do from your on-shore j-box to the end of your dock.

Would be fine for lighting, stereo, fountain pump, battery charger, etc.

Add power tools into the mix you'll need a 20a circuit and #6 copper to maintain <5% voltage drop.

If there's a need to maintain <3% voltage drop you'll need to go up one conductor size on both of your runs.

For an install such as this I would recommend using a GFCI circuit breaker in your load center.
GFCI outlets offer excellent protection, but they don't like the damp conditions that are present in outdoor installations.

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Originally Posted by Augie
At that distance, #8 copper is adequate, just, for a 15a circuit.
#12 copper will do from your on-shore j-box to the end of your dock.

Would be fine for lighting, stereo, fountain pump, battery charger, etc.

Add power tools into the mix you'll need a 20a circuit and #6 copper to maintain <5% voltage drop.

If there's a need to maintain <3% voltage drop you'll need to go up one conductor size on both of your runs.

For an install such as this I would recommend using a GFCI circuit breaker in your load center.
GFCI outlets offer excellent protection, but they don't like the damp conditions that are present in outdoor installations.

I ran power from the outbuilding to the pier, and put a load panel out there with a GFCI for a hot tub out there. I figured if it was rated for being outside near a hot tub, it should work. It tripped once during a thunderstorm and it took me 2 days to figure out why the pump in the pond wasn't pumping. I had forgotten all about the GFCI.


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When we built this place in '07 I installed a livestock drinker ~400' from the house.
Halfway there I set a pole with a weather box, waterproof flip switch for the heater in the drinker, and a duplex GFCI outlet to keep it all safe.

The GFCI outlets operate reliably for about three years, then they very quickly get to the point that they won't hold even the slightest load without tripping.

When this one gives up I'm going to do what I didn't know to do on day one - install a GFCI breaker in the load center where it will stay warm and dry.

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Originally Posted by Augie
The GFCI outlets operate reliably for about three years, then they very quickly get to the point that they won't hold even the slightest load without tripping.


Augie, slightly off-topic question.

We have some very old GFCI outlets (20+ years) in our house. Do they always fail in safe mode (i.e. tripped)?

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GFCI outlets can fail in several ways. At least one of those failure modes could result in the death of you or someone you care about.

Read this article. After you finish you may be motivated to replace those 20yo outlets.


Bad GFCI receptacle: Can a GFCI Outlet Fail?

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