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Originally Posted by FishinRod
There has been no significant rain on our farm or in the watershed of our creek for 10 weeks. However, the water level in the creek has risen substantially!

We have sandy loam soils that transmit a lot of groundwater in the top 6-8' as springs. The tallgrass prairie has evolved roots that easily reach to that level.

When the grass goes dormant in the late fall, the water in the creek goes up as the groundwater flows can finally outpace the transpiration of the plants!

It is an impressive ecological system that has certainly adapted to survive pretty significant droughts.

Reminds me of coral atolls in Indo-Pacific oceans. They grow to the surface, so as waters rise they build up. Recent surveys show that the vast majority of larger islands are growing in extent, including mangrove islands. Of course, they've experienced much higher sea levels in the not too distant past, roughly 6,000 years ago, so are well adapted to change.


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My complaint with Climate Change is the inability to hang a deer! 30 years ago, I could shoot a deer in gun season, and hang it in the barn to age the meat before butchering it. The temperature never got above 40F. Not any more. The temperatures in late Nov/early Dec these days routinely reach into the 50's. Now I pay the butcher and freezer do the same job. (not to mention, it's a LOT of work to butcher a deer, and I'm not so gung-ho at this age.)
As far as pond cooling goes, any little shade helps, so leave the boat in the water, float some logs, expand the dock, let the shoreline grow tall, ... If possible, bury the aerator supply hose or air-condition the supply air, so you're not bubbling 90F air through the water.


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Originally Posted by anthropic
Originally Posted by FishinRod
There has been no significant rain on our farm or in the watershed of our creek for 10 weeks. However, the water level in the creek has risen substantially!

We have sandy loam soils that transmit a lot of groundwater in the top 6-8' as springs. The tallgrass prairie has evolved roots that easily reach to that level.

When the grass goes dormant in the late fall, the water in the creek goes up as the groundwater flows can finally outpace the transpiration of the plants!

It is an impressive ecological system that has certainly adapted to survive pretty significant droughts.

Reminds me of coral atolls in Indo-Pacific oceans. They grow to the surface, so as waters rise they build up. Recent surveys show that the vast majority of larger islands are growing in extent, including mangrove islands. Of course, they've experienced much higher sea levels in the not too distant past, roughly 6,000 years ago, so are well adapted to change.

Sea or water levels were higher even 300 years ago. The monks sailed up some rivers in So. Cal to their monastery (specifically St. Luis Rey River in Oceanside, Ca) and now the "river" is only maybe 24" deep.


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You of course realize that the reduced San Luis River depth has nothing to do with sea level or climate changes, but rather reduced flow due to human activities like damming and water use from the river?

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Originally Posted by esshup
Originally Posted by anthropic
Originally Posted by FishinRod
There has been no significant rain on our farm or in the watershed of our creek for 10 weeks. However, the water level in the creek has risen substantially!

We have sandy loam soils that transmit a lot of groundwater in the top 6-8' as springs. The tallgrass prairie has evolved roots that easily reach to that level.

When the grass goes dormant in the late fall, the water in the creek goes up as the groundwater flows can finally outpace the transpiration of the plants!

It is an impressive ecological system that has certainly adapted to survive pretty significant droughts.

Reminds me of coral atolls in Indo-Pacific oceans. They grow to the surface, so as waters rise they build up. Recent surveys show that the vast majority of larger islands are growing in extent, including mangrove islands. Of course, they've experienced much higher sea levels in the not too distant past, roughly 6,000 years ago, so are well adapted to change.

Sea or water levels were higher even 300 years ago. The monks sailed up some rivers in So. Cal to their monastery (specifically St. Luis Rey River in Oceanside, Ca) and now the "river" is only maybe 24" deep.

Have you guys ever heard of plate tectonics? To make these conclusions you must rule out uplifting from this influence. Very few in the scientific community, (if any), think higher ocean levels were present within that time period. They consider these kind of arguments as disinformation. Go here to learn more about how plate tectonics explains why coral islands are above the surface. As for Oceanside, sedimentation is sufficient explanation, something that has been accelerated by human influence through agriculture. It is also tectonically active and is near a plate boundary where the plate resisted subduction and so has been uplifted.


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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Have you guys ever heard of plate tectonics? To make these conclusions you must rule out uplifting from this influence. Very few in the scientific community, (if any), think higher ocean levels were present within that time period. They consider these kind of arguments as disinformation. Go here to learn more about how plate tectonics explains why coral islands are above the surface. As for Oceanside, sedimentation is sufficient explanation, something that has been accelerated by human influence through agriculture. It is also tectonically active and is near a plate boundary where the plate resisted subduction and so has been uplifted.

I have heard of plate tectonics. I have an Earth & Planetary Sciences degree from one of the most prestigious universities in the U.S. I have also studied Sedimentary Basin Analysis (tectonics) at one of the most prestigious engineering universities in the U.S.

The wikipedia article you linked is so bad, that it is not even wrong.

"While isostatic response is important, an increase in the mean elevation of a region (bold mine) can only occur in response to tectonic processes of crustal thickening (such as mountain building events), changes in the density distribution of the crust and underlying mantle, and flexural support due to the bending of rigid lithosphere."

It appears that this has been edited by a smart person, but that person DOES NOT have a strong background in the subject matter. This is a common malady on Wikipedia.

The entire Hudson Bay region is still exhibiting isostatic rebound from the last glacial period. I believe the current rate is still over 1 meter/century.

The wiki article should have been written to say that: no crustal tectonic plate can exhibit an increase in mean elevation for the entire plate without being subjected to some tectonic uplift process.

At least 2.5 million square miles of land in Canada is currently moving upwards, primarily due to isostatic rebound. I consider the unit of a "region" to be smaller than almost the entirety of the second largest country in the world.

The wiki discussion of coral islands farther down is just a mess. It poorly describes the tectonic environment for a single type of coral island and then implies that condition applies to the general case.

That conclusion is demonstrably untrue. There are a multiplicity of tectonic environments that contain islands with carbonate deposits above sea level. Including islands that exhibit carbonate deposits above current sea level AND are located in tectonic environments that are currently undergoing subsidence.

Among those islands, fluctuating sea levels exert a powerful control on carbonate deposition. However, there are several other geological processes affecting sedimentation. Some of which enable deposition above sea level.

It is possible to find modern deposits of marine creatures above sea level. These carbonate-based marine fossils ARE NOT in situ, but have been emplaced as storm deposits and then subsequently cemented with carbonate minerals that were demonstrably formed in a freshwater vadose zone or phreatic zone.

However, the biggest reason that I spent the time to type this reply, is that there are also modern MARINE carbonate sediments that were deposited above the current sea level in non-uplifting tectonic environments!

There is abundant evidence of a global sea level highstand earlier in the Holocene!

Below is a link to over one hundred peer-reviewed publications documenting the previous sea level highstand.

Holocene Sea Level Studies

Some of these studies document the equivalent of walking up to a sandy shore at your pond and observing depressions and bowls in the sediments of the pond filled with spawning BG at depths of 1' to 4'. You then notice similar depressions in the sand that are located ABOVE the current water level. This is not PROOF that the water level was previously higher in your pond, but it is highly suggestive.

If another researcher can document rabbits making similar depressions adjacent to ponds and above the water level, then the elevation of existing depressions CANNOT be used to determine prior water levels. However, speculation about rabbits IS NOT sufficient to overturn the use of depressions as an indicator of prior water levels of the pond. Calling such a hypothetical BG study "disinformation" based on speculation is a disservice to science and the scientific method.

The studies in the link above show different values for the previous sea level because the determination of eustatic sea level is exceedingly difficult to calculate based on all of the local influences on relative sea level. However, many of the studies clearly document evidence of higher sea levels in areas that ARE NOT experiencing tectonic uplift.

If anyone is interested, the link below goes to a good paper studying ONLY TWO FACTORS on marine carbonate deposits. You will quickly be able to discern for yourself that any "scientist" giving simplistic, one-dimensional answers on this topic is either uneducated or is attempting to deliberately mislead you.

Influence of Water Depth and Wave Energy on Marine Carbonate Deposition

I personally get extremely worried when scientists dismiss other rigorous research as "disinformation" and then proceed without addressing the evidence presented. That is the domain of ideologues. True scientists must integrate all of the data when presenting an accurate representation of the actual physical world.

[I do not intend this post to step on anybody's toes, or to insult anyone's firmly held beliefs. However, any discussion that implicates "global warming" to any degree almost inevitably devolves into two dissenting camps influenced by political beliefs. I wish to avoid the outcome with all of my good friends on Pond Boss.]

Best wishes to all,
FishinRod

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Originally Posted by FishinRod
[I do not intend this post to step on anybody's toes, or to insult anyone's firmly held beliefs. However, any discussion that implicates "global warming" to any degree almost inevitably devolves into two dissenting camps influenced by political beliefs. I wish to avoid the outcome with all of my good friends on Pond Boss.]

Best wishes to all,
FishinRod

If it's a matter of politics then it can only be because of economic interests. With regard to global warming, sites like the one you referenced, are there for sole purpose of discrediting the science of global warming. In most every case, the authors of those papers would disagree that their findings do that. Most are being presented out of context to make arguments the authors wouldn't agree with. This is reminiscent of leaded gasoline, Freon, and emission control. Without government policy and it becoming a "political issue" nothing would have been done about it. None of the fear monger's threats of what would happen if something was done about it ever came true. Only the advocate's predictions were actually realized. Lead levels in blood decreased substantially, air quality in population centers improved and are much better than then even with more cars on the road, the ozone is replenishing. It's no different now but the stakes are higher and slower to evolve.

For me it isn't a political issue. We know that we are driving the accumulation of greenhouse gases but we've only begun to see it's effects accumulating. It's a train we can't stop on a dime and if we wait to reverse the trend the damage that will accumulate will be greater. I'm a long way from the coast, but I still care. I have interests in Oil & Gas. But I still care and I hope we are up to this challenge. In the end, I can assure you that Pierre L. Gosselin will not be remembered as any kind of visionary ... but those that innovate the solutions will of course be. That's a prediction you can take to the bank wink


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jpsdad, I am pretty sure you and I agree on a lot of things! One of which is that CO2 levels in the atmosphere are increasing.

However, not causing great hardship to the world's poorest of the poor is probably also another thing we agree upon. Right now, approximately 25,000 people starve to death every day. That dwarves the "climate change" deaths from all other putative causes combined.

I believe it is easy to demonstrate that the current temperature of the earth is colder than the optimum for hominids. (Look at the geographic distribution of hominids, ex humans.) I also believe that the atmospheric levels of CO2 are suboptimal for the production of cereal grain crops across the globe that feed humanity.

I truly do not understand this statement you made,

"With regard to global warming, sites like the one you referenced, are there for sole purpose of discrediting the science of global warming."

There is no science of "global warming", there is just science.

In a previous post you said,

"Very few in the scientific community, (if any), think higher ocean levels were present within that time period."

This was in response to two different discussions about historical sea level changes over two different time periods. My comment refers to the testable hypothesis that global sea levels have been previously higher, specifically during the period approximately 9,000 to 5,000 thousand years ago, referred to as the Holocene Climatic Optimum.

I think, for example, oysters cemented in situ above the current sea level in Thailand in an area that is currently exhibiting subsidence with no indication that the region has been subjected to a tectonic reversal is evidence that sea levels were higher in the recent past.

"Global warming" scientists call this disinformation? Rebut the evidence, that is the only valid method of science. Are the oysters not there? Were they planted by activists? Is the dating method in error? Is this area experiencing tectonic uplift? If so, then there should be a large gap in the preserved deposits where the ocean was too deep for the development of oyster shoals.

That is just a single, simple example that can be understood by people on the forum without a deep technical background.

The compiled studies are literally from all over the world. Which is exactly what you would expect to see as a response to global eustatic sea level fluctuations in the geologic record.

There is no such thing as "consensus" science. There is no such thing as scientific "disinformation". There certainly are existing examples of scientific fraud. I even agree that "cui bono" is the basis for a LOT of fraudulent or shoddy science that has been performed by commercial entities. However, there are a lot of massive financial interests that exist on the side of promoting alarmist climate change predictions and actively stifle healthy debate and scientific inquiry on the issue.

Best wishes to the Earth and to humanity,
FishinRod

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FishingRod,

I'll look deeper into the theory of decreasing sea level. Only a fool can't have his mind changed. If such is true, there must be a explanation for it, for example, the accumulation of ice through out the same period. That trend seems to be reversed now anyways.

As for the Oysters in Thailand. How many sites were examined? Is this formation widespread? Just one location isn't reliable. There are many examples of oyster middens worldwide for example. But even so, I am willing to entertain the idea and with other kinds of corroborating evidence I could change my mind.

Usually when one with interests is trying to prevent something from happening, they fabricate stories about how great the status quo is for everyone. Like Pierre Gosselin's likening the rise of CO2 as a greening of the Earth. Laughable really. 50 years ago we couldn't agree on whether rising CO2 would cause warming or cooling. I remember that distinctly. But only half of the argument was science. The half that claimed it would warm the Earth were the scientists and the half that claimed otherwise were just obstructionists that are now resorting to arguments like "it doesn't matter", "that effect is caused by something else", and "it's actually going to be good for us".

Hey I won't be around long enough for it to cause me any harm. When I would be troubled about something my father used to say, "One hundred years from now it won't matter." Meaning, of course, that it won't matter because I won't be here to worry about it even as a memory. I know global warming will not do me any harm ... I am just not convinced that means it doesn't matter.

Last edited by jpsdad; 04/04/22 06:29 PM.

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What's interesting is how often the beneficial effects of CO2 on the biosphere are ignored. Greenhouses often run CO2 levels at double or triple ambient levels to encourage growth. Indeed, experiments show that by reducing the time plants must open their stomata, higher CO2 levels correlate with greater resistance to drought and air pollution. Satellite observations reveal substantial greening of the planet since CO2 has increased in recent decades.


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If you need a conspiracy to support your point of view, you may want to take a couple steps back. As a scientist, it is sad how folks have lost trust in science. It's all about what tribe you belong to these days. I guess we have evolved very little. Just makes me sad.

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No political or religious references and engage others with courtesy. Third time I’ve deleted responses in this thread. Please observe forum rules of engagement or aim your angst elsewhere.

Thanks in advance.


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