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#542135 12/11/21 12:02 AM
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Hello Pond Boss folks. I'm a long time lurker, but finally created an account today. I've been reading as much on this forum as I can. I have a pretty good idea of what direction to go, but have a few questions I am hoping I can run past you all. Here's where my pond is at so far. I'd post pictures, but can't figure out how to get them to a less than 2mb size. Apologies in advance for the long post.

Located in western PA. The pond was dug August of 2020, and filled completely by early December 2020. It is approximately an acre and a half, round, and clay based. Steep sides go down to 25-30 feet (we hit sand and decided to keep going). Fed by three good springs that run even in very dry conditions, in addition to very significant run off. We are at the north facing base of a ridge line and get a ton of water. The ridge is all forested, with the exception of a powerline, no farm land to worry about. In almost a month of no rain last year summer, we only lost about four inches of water height. Most of the land around it is pasture for a few horses and cows. I do not lyme it. One side is bordered by woods, and the ridge, so is shaded for the hottest hours of the day. Clarity is currently 2-3 feet. Someday I may try to clear with alum sulfate, but am not to worried about it yet. I would like to aerate, but will need to go with wind or solar. This probably won't happen until 2023 at the earliest. Still working on structure. Adding additional Christmas trees, rip rap, gravel, spawning and hiding habitats, plus beach this Spring/Summer. Plants are desired. Currently only have some small volunteer rushes.

Goals: Swimming for sure, no one here is worried about fish nibbles. We will be building a smallish beach/spawning area, maybe 30 feet wide, with landscape tarp, pea gravel, and sand. There will be a floating dock that goes out 20 feet or so, depending on how many 55 gallon drums I acquire by spring. It will go out far enough for weed free swimming. The other goal is fishing. Trophy sized fish would be a plus, but healthy non stunted fish are all that is desired. We'd like to be able to pull enough out to eat a couple times a month. More or less as needed, we enjoy fishing. I still fish for chubs in the small creek that runs below the pond :-). I'd like for it to be a mostly self sustaining fishery, but do plan to feed a couple times a week or so to keep a better eye on things, and enjoyment. Some put and take is anticipated.

Stocking: Going for a YP, RES, SMB base. I want to stock everything now so bad! This waiting is for the birds, but I am being patient and getting it done right. Last June, 200 bull frog tadpoles and 500 large FHM ordered online from Anderson's were put in. I later read here that they were probably all males due to the size, but saw massive fry clouds all the way around the pond all summer long. I think they are off to a great start, although I never see many adults with my clarity. Spring 2022, I'd like to put in breeder sized RES, SFS, BNM, and appropriate crayfish. Also two sizes of YP, maybe a month after the forage species. Late Fall 2022 I'd like to add SMB big enough to hopefully spawn the following spring. After that, spring or fall 2023 I'd like to add some WE and HSB, and will ladder stock as needed.
Does this sound okay? Should I hold off on the YP and SMB for the other forage species to establish?

Questions.

I need help with stocking amounts of the fish and recommended sellers. I don't want to heavily stock to the point I need to feed heavily. I have Zetts in Drifting PA, but would like to avoid them if at all possible for fish and plants. Especially the RES and SMB. I'm in zip code 15701. I have called and emailed several vendors that ship or in my area I have found on here, but have not received any response, and most seem to have closed. The places that do ship don't have the species I'm looking for other than YP and WE except Delmarva, but I've gotten no response from them. Willing to drive, but am limited to what I can haul bagged in my car. I don't believe I'll have room for buckets and bubblers.

Would a few larger CC be doable with my mix when WE and HSB are added?

GSH, yes or no?

What plants would you recommend besides lilies and where can I order them? The deer ate all of my lilies I planted last year. Hopefully the Bambie currently residing in my freezer is one of the culprits. I need something submergent and less tasty. I'd love duck potatoes, but have a feeling the deer would annihilate those too. Thinking eel grass, val. Carolina. I have some south American varieties in tropical aquariums and love it. I would need to find a supplier also. Ordering it through my usual channels for aquariums is going to get extremely pricey very fast. I do have a supplier for some blue iris and am encouraging the small rushes that volunteered to spread. Some maintenance is okay. I do not want more than 20% or so planted with submergents and have no trouble getting in the pond and pulling before they become a problem. No cattails per my husband. It's his only request for the pond besides how the dock is designed. I may stock crayfish at a later time once plants have established.

Thanks for taking the time to read. I appreciate all the advice I can get.

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I suggest protecting new plants. I do this with thorny honey locust branches, but temporary fencing also works well. Once established, it is hard for deer to kill them. On the other hand, unchecked muskrats can wipe out some types of emergent plants. Keeping livestock (including horses and cows) away from the pond and outside of the watershed is important for swimming safety and reducing nutrient load. Manure and swimming/fishing ponds don't work well together. Best of luck!

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Redhorse ,welcome to Pond Boss active posting!!

I'm from Murrysville/Export and my main pond is in Somerset.

Regarding the stocking, the only thing I was wondering about is if I would want the Yellow Perch to have pulled off a spawn before putting in the SMB.

I've bought from Zett's in Drifting PA several times with no issues, and I say that because it's one of the only places near us.

Hartley's in KS used to ship smallies, so maybe that's an option too.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Hopefully I got this to work. Here is a picture of the pond 3/4 completed, with me and the pups standing in the bottom. I am working to resize other photos.

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Originally Posted by RAH
I suggest protecting new plants. I do this with thorny honey locust branches, but temporary fencing also works well. Once established, it is hard for deer to kill them. On the other hand, unchecked muskrats can wipe out some types of emergent plants. Keeping livestock (including horses and cows) away from the pond and outside of the watershed is important for swimming safety and reducing nutrient load. Manure and swimming/fishing ponds don't work well together. Best of luck!

Thanks RAH! We don't have locust, but I'll try other trees/brush for sure when I plant again next spring. 5 foot woven wire around the lilies didn't stop at least one deer, judging by the tracks. We don't have a bull, so safety isn't an issue. There are ten animals spread over 30 acres, and the pasture slopes downward. No pasture above the pond, it is wooded. Unless the livestock were standing right on the edges of the pond for long periods, and they don't, we are safe from manure runoff.

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Originally Posted by Sunil
Redhorse ,welcome to Pond Boss active posting!!

I'm from Murrysville/Export and my main pond is in Somerset.

Regarding the stocking, the only thing I was wondering about is if I would want the Yellow Perch to have pulled off a spawn before putting in the SMB.

I've bought from Zett's in Drifting PA several times with no issues, and I say that because it's one of the only places near us.

Hartley's in KS used to ship smallies, so maybe that's an option too.

Thanks Sunil!

I was planning to put the YP in after their spawning season. Should I put the SMB in with them at the same time?

I'm a little nervous about Zetts after reading a lot of not so great things about them on here and other places. I'm worried if I get my RES from them I'll end up with HBG or BG. I have no problem hand sorting, but I don't think I'm good enough to correctly ID the sunfish and their hybrids.

I will look up Hartley's and give them a call, thanks for the tip!

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In my mind, the Yellow Perch are both a predator and a prey fish. Larger Yellow Perch may be able to eat smaller SMB, so if you can source SMB in the 5" range, plus, you may be fine to have the YP in the pond for a full year which would include a spawn by the YP providing the original YP are big enough to spawn.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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If you want the SMB to spawn, consider adding spawning structures:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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A disclaimer and a thought.

Disclaimer. Never been to Pa and may be off base.

Thought; it takes 10 pounds of forage for a predator to gain one pound. I don’t see a prey fish on your list that provides that.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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WOW! It seems Redhorse is a lady Pond Meister (maybe not). As noted in "No cattails per my husband. It's his only request for the pond besides how the dock is designed."

Welcome. I lived in Pgh 10 years and I know your area. 1.5 acre is a big pond for me and my management experience but it is very doable for your goals which I have lots of experience with and actually are my expertise aka Pond Doctor.

Answers will take awhile. You are lucky that sample analyses are slowing down now and I have some time for this. I did biology water sample analyses all the while I worked for an environmental firm in PGH.

Be sure to read the postscript.
Your reading of things here has gotten you I think off to a very good start.
1. Your FHM have gotten you off to an excellent start base for forage fish. As you now know FHM males are not that much larger than females and obviously the shipment was close to a 50:50 M-F mixture. Isn't it truly amazing how many offspring 500 FHM can produce. It always amazes me what they can do when they "do their thing" without any predation. The stocking of a lower than normal density of breeder FHM(500) did have a benefit. Fewer were produced and those produced were able to grow and mature fast due to less competition. Truth be known most of those original FHM are probably 'gonners' if you believe the literature which says mature FHM adults usually live one spawning season after producing all those youngsters that your pond now has. However my experience shows some or a good percentage of the hardy ones will live to spawn the second year. Some of this has to do when during the season, as early or late, they were hatched. Some Minnow trapping this spring will confirm or deny presence of 2021 breeder FHM.

2. Your goals are lofty,,,, however I don't think you are going to be able to locate and stock BNM and SFS. :-(. They are more rare to buy than smallmouth bass in the springtime which often cannot be accomplished.

3. The Plan. Spring 2022, I'd like to put in breeder sized RES, SFS, BNM, and appropriate crayfish. Also two sizes of YP, maybe a month after the forage species. Late Fall 2022 I'd like to add SMB big enough to hopefully spawn the following spring. After that, spring or fall 2023 I'd like to add some WE and HSB, and will ladder stock as needed.

A. leave the crayfish out until all the plants are established. Crayfish thrive eating plants both algae and submerged species. A strong population of crays will eliminate plants. I can help with locating good crays via PMing me.

B. Since you have experience with and have an aquarium buy from aquarium suppliers the eel grass NOW and plant and nourish it as best you can this winter in an aquarium. Grow it until the plants are reproducing and thriving inside,, then transplant some into they pond as they the inside population expands. I can help you via PMessaging to find the right varieties that should live in the pond. Very Good idea NO CATTALS. There are numerous very good marginal plants besides cattails. However with 1.5 ac of shoreline you will need to be diligent at keeping up-start cattails from establishing on the shoreline. I do not let the first cattail establish in any of my ponds. It promptly and timely gets pulled and up rooted. I assume that you have read through this thread from our Common Pond Q&A in the Archives:
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=440475#Post440475

C. Some larger breeder RES this spring can be added for 2022 spawning.

D. Both sizes of YP can be added this spring provided they are pellet trained so they eat more pellets than small FHM. Pellet trained YP are welfare fish and would rather eat hand out pellets than work catching minnows. No pellet trained YP, then add those YP in fall 2022. I think you should be able to find some 4"-6" plus several 6"-8" pellet trained YP for a late March or the 1st week of April prespawn stocking from western Ohio within a 2-2.5 hr drive. Healthy well fed even 4"-6" YP at one year old can produce spawns. Although several 6"-8" YP will insure good egg production. Show up with money and good fish farms will send you home with your fish in oxygenated bags. Easy peasy. You will only need a low number of YP and RES for 2022 spawns IF you get both of them prespawn. Give me a town where you live and I will help calculate driving distances and suppliers. I am a member of Ohio Aquaculture and know and can help you locate YP growers and maybe I think even your RES.

E. Add your SMB in 2022 fall because you likely will not find any locally this spring. Shipments of smb maybe,,,, but you will not be finding them locally. Besides the fall of 2022 will be the appropriate time to stock SMB and or some HSB. SMB fingerlings stocked in the fall will do very well with your stocking plan despite what DD1 says above as " Thought; it takes 10 pounds of forage for a predator to gain one pound. I don’t see a prey fish on your list that provides that."
DD1 is very correct if your goal is to grow trophy bass or even FAST growing bass BUT that is not your plan. Your plan will grow SMB. it is just you will not grow really big ones fast. However your plan will easily grow 14" to 16" smallies; it just may take a little longer as in 5 years instead of 3 or 4. Also the secret to this success would be to just initially stock fewer smallies so each ones initially has plenty of food. Thereafter it will me your management duty to keep the SMB numbers thinned or reduced so you do not have as many "hogs feeding at the trough". Thus each remaining predator gets ample food that the pond is able to produce. A well managed 1.5 ac pond will provide you will lots of harvestable fish especially if high protein pellets are used.

F. SUNIL above says "In my mind, the Yellow Perch are both a predator and a prey fish. Larger Yellow Perch may be able to eat smaller SMB". Technically bluegill and just about every panfish is predator and forage fish during their life. Panfish esp YP in the 2"-6" range eat mostly invertebrates and if available will often learn to eat pellets if things are correct. When YP get to 7+" they will eat some minnows in their daily diet if that YP has not learned to eat pellets. Then if eating pellets they are pellet hogs; filling their belly as often as they are offered pellets. Do not worry about any size YP eating or over eating stocked or 3"-4" SMB. Big YP as in 8"-13" pond grown YP focus on eating 1"-1.5" minnows if they are available. And this happens mostly when those YP are offered pellets as in very early prespawn, very late fall and during winter when pellets are not fed. Larger YP will eat this 1" to 1.5" fish size until it is scarce then those big lazy YP have to resort to catching the larger 2"-3" minnows/fish which is actually pretty hard for those perch to do because the perch are not as quick and fast ad as aggressive predators as a small bass. Thus the larger perch will often resort to feeding on invertebrates when small minnows are in short supply and mostly large hard-to-catch minnows are all there is to eat. OR if your perch are pellet feeders then they are VERY VERY happy just eating the welfare no work pellet food. :-)))))
That is how you grow big perch fast.

G. One more item. I highly recommend to not stock the channel catfish into your plan for this pond, at least not for the first 5-6 years. CC and be successfully added later if desired. In my experience each CC will take the place of at least one bass. So it comes down to would you rather have CC or bass? Also CC will eventually spawn in your pond. I am not sure how well your planned fishery will be able to control the numbers of CC who could eventually dominate the fishery.

Well there you have it on my ideas of how to continue forward.

For reference about 20 years ago I published 3 articles about growing YP in small ponds in the now defunct Pond Harvest Magazine. . The info is a little dated and I am very slowly working on at least 5 yellow perch growing articles for Pond Boss magazine. The PB editor and I might decide to turn this into a small booklet. If you need to read those earlier 3 articles contact me for email copies. However follow my suggestions above, and hereafter and your pond will no doubt be successful. If not I know my way to western PA for a pond visit although those are rarely ever needed.

POSTSCRIPT - Important note deals with the goals as I understand them suggests that this is not a primary emphasis sportfish pond for optimum balance and maximum fish size nor high production. Ponds can be initially stocked using fewer numbers of some breeder species if fishery balance and optimum growth is not of primary importance. The initial stocking of pond fish using fewer breeder species is a method and can be very successful if done with proper timing, in the correct order, using the proper species and with good knowledge of the ecology of each species. Good background experience helps too. This method is sometimes more successful than the common Fish Farm initial stocking method of adding all fish at the same time.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/13/21 10:20 AM. Reason: Postscript and spell corrects

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