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Joined: Apr 2021
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Frogger Offline OP
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Hi Folks.

I have a 1/2 acre pond that has less than ideal catchment area so want to get a pump and hose setup so I can maintain levels from a local river during dry months.

I have 30ft uphill and 325ft total run to reach the pond.

My current 125gpm 2" high pressure pump and 2" poly pipe setup is very slow during refills. Suspect both from it being an HP pump and long run of hose. I'm probably only getting 75gpm out of it.

If I go with a 3 or 4" trash pump, would I want to use a bigger discharge hose diameter than the pump to account for the 30ft lift and 300+ run? I'd like to get the most of whatever pump I purchase so would like to ensure I get a low friction loss setup to get max gpm. Ideally 200-300gpm would be great.

Please let me know your thoughts on this.

Thank you!

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Frictional pressure losses in pipe are very dependent on pipe diameter (as you imply).

It is also fairly dependent on flow rate. Sometimes bigger is not MUCH better, especially if you are trading off money for time.

Pressure drop estimates for 300' run of plastic pipe:

Diameter GPM Pressure Drop
2" 300 169#
3" 300 24#
4" 300 6#

2" 200 80#
3" 200 11#
4" 200 3#

Those are ballpark estimates for straight pipe only. I hope that is sufficient information for you to start planning your project.

Those figures are for the frictional pressure losses only. You will have to add in the additional work required from your pump to lift the fluid as required for your elevation changes. (In general, place the pump as low as possible on the suction side to your water source. "Pushing" the water is usually far more efficient on the discharge side, relative to "sucking" the water on the intake side.)

Good luck on your project!

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Sorry about the spacing. Somehow I lost my formatting when it posted.

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Frogger,

A centrifugal pump has variable output depending on the head. There should be a pump curve that you can reference to find that number. Some portion of that is lifting water. Keep in mind that there is more to it than just from the discharge to the pond. One must also include lifting water to the pump itself on the suction end. This has its own curve. As a general rule, keep the discharge and suction conduits the same diameter as the those on the pump. Restricting a 4" pump to 2" will greatly increase the head resulting in lower flowrate. A lower cost conduit that would probably work well with a 4" pump is the flat irrigation tubing. Its very affordable for long spans.

BUMP***

Don't overcomplicate this. You have a reference on your 2" pump at 75 gallons per minute. A 4" pump that has similar head limit will produce ~4x that rate provided you give it 4" conduit. It will probably not be worth putting 4" hose on a 2" pump though it would increase flow by reducing the frictional loss. Were it me, I would make the decision based solely on the benefits of pump size and size the conduits accordingly.

Last edited by jpsdad; 10/19/21 07:13 AM.

Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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A 2” trash pump with 2” hose, will raise your pond 6” in 24 hrs.

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Frogger Offline OP
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Originally Posted by FishinRod
Sorry about the spacing. Somehow I lost my formatting when it posted.

That is great info, thank you!

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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Frogger,

A centrifugal pump has variable output depending on the head. There should be a pump curve that you can reference to find that number. Some portion of that is lifting water. Keep in mind that there is more to it than just from the discharge to the pond. One must also include lifting water to the pump itself on the suction end. This has its own curve. As a general rule, keep the discharge and suction conduits the same diameter as the those on the pump. Restricting a 4" pump to 2" will greatly increase the head resulting in lower flowrate. A lower cost conduit that would probably work well with a 4" pump is the flat irrigation tubing. Its very affordable for long spans.

BUMP***

Don't overcomplicate this. You have a reference on your 2" pump at 75 gallons per minute. A 4" pump that has similar head limit will produce ~4x that rate provided you give it 4" conduit. It will probably not be worth putting 4" hose on a 2" pump though it would increase flow by reducing the frictional loss. Were it me, I would make the decision based solely on the benefits of pump size and size the conduits accordingly.

Thanks. I'm not going to bother increasing the pipe size without upgrading the pump to a 3 or 4 inch.

From what I'm seeing I'd want a 3in pump and 4in discharge or a 4in pump and 5in discharge to overcome the height and friction loss.

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Originally Posted by Journeyman
A 2” trash pump with 2” hose, will raise your pond 6” in 24 hrs.

Sounds about right!

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I found a program on the Honda website to plug in pump model, lift, run, pipe size etc. Worked great to get a good comparison of things!

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Provided I had a bit of a slope at the top of the hill back down to the pond.....what about using solid corrugated drain pipe in either 4" or 6"? I feel that would be more durable than the blue layflat hose but I'm not sure about how it would handle the pressure. Also being ribbed I'd likely need to go with 6" to account for the friction loss if I was pumping a 4" flow into it?

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I don't see why the corrugate pipe wouldn't work. You will probably need to couple 100 ft pieces. The flat is pretty easy to lay and even easier to put up but probably has a more limited life span as you suggested. It's your choice. Keep us posted on your choice and any further thoughts after implementation.


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Bumping the discharge hose/pipe size up 1" above the pump discharge outlet is a good idea. If this will be out in the weather for the season (or more)...the corrugated pipe would last longer compared to the run-of-the-mill lay flat hose (think sun/UV damage). I would definitely use the lay flat hose IF this is a system that will get stored away regularly AND the hose is running down hill. Sometimes these lay flat hoses can get to rippling which causes it to pinch, especially if running up hill or over uneven ground.


Fish on!,
Noel
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Don't forget a 50 micron filter to stop any nasties from the river from getting into the pond.
NOTE - I think esshup means 500 micron not 50micron. 500um catches all fish eggs and newly hatched fish fry plus just about all macroinvertebrates.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/22/21 06:18 PM.

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Originally Posted by Frogger
Provided I had a bit of a slope at the top of the hill back down to the pond.....what about using solid corrugated drain pipe in either 4" or 6"? I feel that would be more durable than the blue layflat hose but I'm not sure about how it would handle the pressure. Also being ribbed I'd likely need to go with 6" to account for the friction loss if I was pumping a 4" flow into it?

Frogger,

I was doing a project very similar to your project - and reached the same conclusion that black corrugated drain pipe was far better on price and diameter than blue lay-flat.

However, whenever I think a product is better than the common solution, I start worrying that I am missing some important physical parameter. I actually called the distributor for Menard's black corrugated drain pipe and asked about my application. He said that their product is definitely NOT DESIGNED for that application. Once he determined that I (sort of) knew what I was talking about, he said there was a chance of making it work, but he again stressed that was way out of their design.

As I recall, he thought the biggest problem would be connections. Their "soil tight" connections in the drain pipe application are designed to keep the water in and the soil out at pressures very close to 0 psi. Once you start pumping uphill, your head pressures are no longer near the 0 psi design parameters for drain pipe. (Even though I am pretty sure it has a "burst strength" far above your head pressure.)

I ended up using PVC and blue lay flat. That was a no-drip combination in my application, and I just have to do a little work with the lay-flat when I need to pump water on that "occasional use" system.

Good luck,
Rod

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Frogger Offline OP
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Originally Posted by FishinRod
Originally Posted by Frogger
Provided I had a bit of a slope at the top of the hill back down to the pond.....what about using solid corrugated drain pipe in either 4" or 6"? I feel that would be more durable than the blue layflat hose but I'm not sure about how it would handle the pressure. Also being ribbed I'd likely need to go with 6" to account for the friction loss if I was pumping a 4" flow into it?

Frogger,

I was doing a project very similar to your project - and reached the same conclusion that black corrugated drain pipe was far better on price and diameter than blue lay-flat.

However, whenever I think a product is better than the common solution, I start worrying that I am missing some important physical parameter. I actually called the distributor for Menard's black corrugated drain pipe and asked about my application. He said that their product is definitely NOT DESIGNED for that application. Once he determined that I (sort of) knew what I was talking about, he said there was a chance of making it work, but he again stressed that was way out of their design.

As I recall, he thought the biggest problem would be connections. Their "soil tight" connections in the drain pipe application are designed to keep the water in and the soil out at pressures very close to 0 psi. Once you start pumping uphill, your head pressures are no longer near the 0 psi design parameters for drain pipe. (Even though I am pretty sure it has a "burst strength" far above your head pressure.)

I ended up using PVC and blue lay flat. That was a no-drip combination in my application, and I just have to do a little work with the lay-flat when I need to pump water on that "occasional use" system.

Good luck,
Rod

Thanks Rod. For the corrugated pipe run i would be on level ground. I was thinking I could run 100' of Layflat up the hill and connect into the corrugated for the rest of the run? That probably wouldn't work well then? One the water is up the hill I would think the PSI would drop in the pipe especially if I went with 6".

I see your point about the connection points though. I'm not sure I could get a leak free setup with the corrugated.

If not I think I'd rather go with solid PVC than the layflat......just want something I can leave outside and will last several years.

Cheers

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Frogger,

Experimenting is always good. If you have some alternative use for the corrugated drain pipe if your project DOES NOT work, then you lose very little if your "experiment" fails.

If you went PVC to the crest of your hill, plus maybe a little farther, then there would not be that much pressure on your transition connection - if the rest of the pipe run was truly flat or slightly downhill.

I would figure out that connection first. If you think you have a chance of it working, then try your hybrid system. If that doesn't work, just finish it off with PVC the whole way - and then you only "wasted" some inexpensive corrugated pipe and a few connections.

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I had to learn alot about pumps, head and GPM for a simlar application. I called these guys and were unbelievably helpful (Pumpbiz.com) I am not a rep or tied to them in any way.

They recommended the following 4.7hp high-pressure unit for my application. This is not a trash pump, so filtering is important. It's rated for 110gpm and up to 167 feet of dynamic head. I think we calculated my application right at 100ft of dynamic head. Gravity is a bear.

https://pumpbiz.com/high-pressure-water-fire-pump-2-inch-honda-serh-50b

The creek bottom to the top of the hill is 76 vertical feet (thank you google earth) and total run is 590 feet (430' is uphill). I am running 40 feet of 2" suction hose and my pump is 5 feet above water level. The first 50' of my discharge is 2" lay-flat discharge line connected to 500' of 2" schedule 40 I trenched through the woods.

It works like a charm, minus the tiny 1 gallon fuel tank. Like you, I wish I could get that 200-500gpm but a giant pump was out of the question because the creek flow rate/ reservoir is too small.

Last edited by HTNFSH2; 10/29/21 01:59 PM.

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