Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
pondymcpondy, Nicron, turbo2liter, JassyBorm, HenrysHollow
17,483 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics39,232
Posts532,821
Members17,483
Most Online3,583
Jan 15th, 2020
Top Posters
esshup 25,872
ewest 20,752
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 13,857
Who's Online Now
6 members (STP, Quarter Acre, Theo Gallus, RStringer, anthropic, RAH), 72 guests, and 137 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 69
Likes: 1
A
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
A
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 69
Likes: 1
Late summer phytoplankton bloom from ag run off in my 8.7 ac pond in Chester County S.C.(Built 2007). Secchi disk reading 12" +/-and confirmed blue -green algae. Started treatment with running aerated well water and applying 9 gallons of Cutrine Plus to reduce algae. I have a recommendation to apply an Alum application to reduce accumulated phosphorus-but do not have any experience with Alum for phosphorus reduction.

Need help and advice as to applying Alum for this concern. Can I apply Alum in dry form? Should I dilute Alum in water and then apply in a liquid form? Should I apply Alum over a period of several weeks to reduce risk of PH drop? I understand that Alum application has risk of serious PH reduction and possible fish kill if application is too heavy!

Any help and advice will be appreciated!

Al Allison

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,872
Likes: 158
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,872
Likes: 158
Al:

What is your alkalinity reading of the water? If it's high then you don't have to buffer the alum as much as you do with low alkalinity water - the pH will swing quickly.

Alum should be applied as a slurry, or a liquid, not as a powder. It can be buffered by applying Hydrated lime first to strips in the pond, then go perpendicular to those strips when applying alum. You should have a bottle of pH test strips to check the pH of the water while and after applying it.

The alum works best if applied at a rate that causes P to bind and flocculate to the bottom of the pond, but again, keep an eye on the pH.

Look at the threads in the Muddy Water section, read the first 2 threads and any others that look interesting. That will give you an idea how to apply it.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
1 member likes this: jpsdad
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 214
Likes: 9
D
Offline
D
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 214
Likes: 9
While only a tenth acre size, lined, 0.4 acre-feet, four years old, aerated, treated with bacteria, and well fed, in August my pond was suffering a massive bloom after I removed hundreds of pounds of wet sunken leaves and mucked the sediment out (which must have liberated phosphorus). Don't expect a bottom muck eating bacteria to eat last fall's leaf fall or even the previous year...they do start to de-compose, but don't lose their shape (I now realize I must put my sein across the south end of pond to catch the leaves almost daily for several weeks...live oak and pecan). After a shot of cutrine plus, the water got to looking better but not great, still cloudy and only 18 inches visibility...Dangit all, I expected a clean and clearing pond after three weeks of mucking work (the leaves kept plugging the vacuum head, which went thru various design changes, until we removed the leaves). I then tried some polymer flocculant products, which helped clearing but still left a cloudy state. Got ten pounds of pure alum to play with...saw some interesting effects in buckets of pond water...a few crystals of alum would drop out everything, perfect clarity, but then half the floc would float to the surface...add a little polymer flocculant and all would drop to the bottom. I calculated I would need about 120 pounds of alum. Hmmm...I saw that alum consumes more than its weight of minerals providing alkalinity and even though we have hard water with good alkalinity I don't think my water can provide hundreds of pounds of alkaline minerals. So, there it was...want to use alum, get the hydrated lime. Then I found Phosclear, forty pound containers that appear to be about half alum and half alka seltzer (sodium bicarbonate), a buffering agent. The Phosclear info gives the weights required for either phosphorus capture or water clearing (twice as much). At $120/container, I can afford this "safe" product only because my water is small. Well, after sixty pounds of Phosclear plus the ten original pounds of alum I threw in (I think a total of forty pounds alum), the water looks really good...sechi disk two feet...and we can see the fish. I have another twenty pounds to play with. Can alum treatments work cumulatively? I don't know, but I'd like to know. I am intending to keep using Phosclear treatments.

Something else conundrum: Fish kicking up dusty sediment. I'd like to sequester it. I found a lot of muck was somewhat cemented...I've been using polymer flocculants for years...wondering if the polymers provide some cementation. I also saw a post here that a fellow's sandy beach had cemented nicely after an application of Soilfloc to stop leaks.


Dan McWhirter
DannyMac
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Just curious, what makes you think you need to reduce phosphorous in your body of water?

I did not see a test result. A home phosphorous test costs about the same as two fish.

Adding Cutrine to your bow will only exasperate the issue, whatever the issue is.

1 member likes this: DannyMac
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 69
Likes: 1
A
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
A
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 69
Likes: 1
Thanks for the reply. Current alkalinity is 40. 48 tons of ag lime was applied in early August. High phosphorus levels have been confirmed in water test in past months but current phosphorus levels are not known. Will test phosphorus level soon. Blue/green algae tested positive in August and paint like slime observed in shallow cove.

Applied 50 lbs of Alum in 50 gallons of water as a test. PH remained stable at 7.5. Will proceed after phosphorus test.
Thanks Al Allison

1 member likes this: DannyMac
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 214
Likes: 9
D
Offline
D
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 214
Likes: 9
I just read the other day that copper based algaecides, with continuing use, may assist a blue-green algae (actually bacteria) bloom.


Dan McWhirter
DannyMac
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Nutrients in water are dynamic, not static. One test tells you very little, not to mention how you measure phosphorous is more important than the, one test, taken one day, once. You're not measuring elemental phosphorous, ever.

Documented testing, including atmospheric conditions, will eventually allow you to pinpoint the source of any water quality issue. Annual Cost: 100 usd and your time.

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,872
Likes: 158
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,872
Likes: 158
Originally Posted by Joey Quarry
Nutrients in water are dynamic, not static. One test tells you very little, not to mention how you measure phosphorous is more important than the, one test, taken one day, once. You're not measuring elemental phosphorous, ever.

Documented testing, including atmospheric conditions, will eventually allow you to pinpoint the source of any water quality issue. Annual Cost: 100 usd and your time.


Also the amount of growing plants and phytoplankton density will affect the P test results. A single test will tell you a baseline for those conditions, nothing more, nothing less. A single test is still way better than no test at all.

I am curious. How will atmospheric conditions change the test results? Say it's 80°F and sunny today, sample is taken. Tomorrow is 60°F and cloudy when sample is taken. Will the test results be significantly different?


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Depends on your subjective definition of, "significantly". The short answer, yes. Seasonal changes also have an impact.

One test does not give you a baseline, not even close.That would be like randomly taking your Blood Pressure and considering it, baseline.

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,872
Likes: 158
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,872
Likes: 158
Originally Posted by Joey Quarry
One test does not give you a baseline, not even close.That would be like randomly taking your Blood Pressure and considering it, baseline.

But that is exactly what happens when your company has the wellness screenings for it's employees every year, or when you go to your doctor every year for your annual checkup. They use that number to tell you if you have high, O.K. or low BP. Especially those wellness exams.

O.K., then answer this:

If you were measuring

SRP Soluble Reactive Phosphorous
TP Total Phosphorous
TKN Total Kjeldahl Nitrogen

in mg/l out to 4 decimal points, without any water entering or leaving the pond, how much will each of those change (in mg/l) from one day to the next day just with atmospheric changes?

I'm not talking about a test done in mid August to one done in mid January, nor am I talking about a test done today and a test done tomorrow after the pond saw a frog strangler overnight. I'm talking about how much the figures will change just depending on atmospheric conditions from one day to the next.

Use the example I gave above "Say it's 80°F and sunny today, sample is taken. Tomorrow is 60°F and cloudy when sample is taken." how much will the change be as expressed in mg/l?


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
[Linked Image from memegenerator.net]

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,872
Likes: 158
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,872
Likes: 158
That's what I thought. Thanks for the clarification.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
It was a polite way to answer a silly, nonsensical question. Obviously ph, temperature and photic zones are drivers, along with infinite other parameters in a morphometrically complex body of water.

The question was really quite silly, so it was answered in kind. Let it go...

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 127
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 127
The thread is developing a comical direction but to Al it is a serious matter. Phosphorous is one of those things we all depend. In water, it is probably the single most important driver of primary production (with one exception, the water chemistry needed to assist its cycling). In as much as this is true, water hardness and PH, are fundamental to getting the most out of the phosphorous in our water and are important fundament parameters.

When we don't have enough phosphorous, we really need it ... but too much is one the greatest pains of pond ownership. I would say it's one of the greatest pains of pond management but that actually depends on whether the pond manager is earning a living from too much phosphorus or if the pond manager is paying for the solution. There is a difference ... where one is plagued and another blessed by the circumstance.

If Al's lake had the perfect chemistry to get the most primary production from a perfect concentration of phosphorus we wouldn't be having this conversation. We'd be talking about things like species balance and primary production utilization. We would be solving and improving the present conditions with fun stuff ... as opposed to performing this rather mundane and unpleasant task of killing primary production (making muck) and sequestering nutrients (throwing away the nutrients he paid for). I'm not making light of the task as I understand that Al wants to get his pond into a condition where he can feed again.

Once again, feed gets a pass as an underlying contributor to excessive phosphorus.


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


1 member likes this: 4CornersPuddle
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 799
Likes: 101
A
Offline
A
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 799
Likes: 101
Originally Posted by Joey Quarry
It was a polite way to answer a silly, nonsensical question. Obviously ph, temperature and photic zones are drivers, along with infinite other parameters in a morphometrically complex body of water.

The question was really quite silly, so it was answered in kind. Let it go...

Seemed a straightforward question to me.

I'd like to understand how the level of dissolved solids in a BOW can change overnight, solely due to changes in atmospheric conditions.

I'm a simpleton in these matters. Please enlighten me.

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Originally Posted by Augie
Seemed a straightforward question to me.

I'd like to understand how the level of dissolved solids in a BOW can change overnight, solely due to changes in atmospheric conditions.

I'm a simpleton in these matters. Please enlighten me.

Augie, TDS, Total Dissolved Solids, is an entirely different question, subject and answer, not applicable to this thread.

As far as esshup's question, it is commonly studied, especially in wastewater treatment, how temperature and ph can impact microorganisms nutrient removal efficiency.

Asking for a ppm to the ten thousandths based on two atmospheric parameters, is the acme of foolishness.

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 799
Likes: 101
A
Offline
A
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 799
Likes: 101
Are phosphorus and nitrate/nitrite not solids that are dissolved in the water?

I'm trying to learn something here. What are you doing, aside from insulting other forum members?

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Total Dissolved Solids, is a measurement of all organic and inorganic substances in a liquid. So, your answer is, yes.

The first process to occur in your body of water, the instant the first raindrop falls is called, The Nitrogen Cycle. If you are curious about atmospheric impact, I would google that to begin with.

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,872
Likes: 158
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,872
Likes: 158
Originally Posted by Joey Quarry
Originally Posted by Augie
Seemed a straightforward question to me.

I'd like to understand how the level of dissolved solids in a BOW can change overnight, solely due to changes in atmospheric conditions.

I'm a simpleton in these matters. Please enlighten me.

Augie, TDS, Total Dissolved Solids, is an entirely different question, subject and answer, not applicable to this thread.

As far as esshup's question, it is commonly studied, especially in wastewater treatment, how temperature and ph can impact microorganisms nutrient removal efficiency.

Asking for a ppm to the ten thousandths based on two atmospheric parameters, is the acme of foolishness.


No, it's not a silly question. It was stated that it was pointless to take a single day sample to get a baseline of P in a pond strictly because of atmospheric conditions. I don't believe that strictly atmospheric conditions (Rainfall can change P levels - I am not disputing that) will change P levels in a pond (not a wastewater facility) significantly enough to make a significant (sufficiently great to be worthy of attention) difference in P levels in a 24 hour period. When I send water out to be tested, the TP test results come back in a 0.0000 figure. What other atmospheric conditions will significantly change P levels in a pond within a 24 hour period?


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 127
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 127
When esshups speaks, I listen. Especially on matters that involve chemical treatments and protocols surrounding them. No one is more knowledgeable here about these matters. Learn from him OR learn from the school of hard knocks. There isn't alot of room to miss the steps and methods he shares with us.

If it ever seems you all that I am at odds with him ... then you don't understand. I hardly ever disagree with him. I have a much more subdued philosophy about nutrients, their use, and responsible stewardship of them. To be sure, I would like to help him find peace closer to the center where with his influence and leadership ... very meaningful and broad progress in this regard could be accomplished. We are part of something much bigger than ourselves and that will last much longer.

Last edited by jpsdad; 10/14/21 06:42 PM.

Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
I agree, JP, you both have come a long way.
It seems like only months ago you both thought, TDS, was Total Dissolved Salts.

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=41330&Number=537296#Post537296

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 127
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 127
esshup,

You are an expert in these matters and have seen your fair share of pond water and well water tests. I will submit to your judgment in this matter. In my own experience, the deeper the well the higher the concentration of salts in the well's water. For example, oil wells in my native OK begin to have water which salinities exceed sea water at depths of 1300' in some places. My impression is that freshwater is only common at the surface of our planet and what primarily distinguishes it from water with high TDS is the amount of dissolved salts, primarily but not entirely sodium salts. If most of TDS components aren't salts then could you educate me and others what they typically are in well water.

I know enough about TDS to know it is only a weight/volume measurement. It is how much a given volume of water weighs. If a liter of water weighs more than 1000 grams, then the difference between its gram weight and 1,000 grams is divided by 1,000 grams. If multiplied by 1 million this is a parts per million by mass proportion that is normally expressed in units of mg/kg. A pretty easy experiment to determine TDS.

In your experience, what are the parts per million of sodium in well waters exceeding 1000 ppm TDS? How does the salt proportion compare to the TDS proportion? Is it the lions share? Under what circumstances is it not?

I'm ready to learn something new if there is something new to be learned. Somehow, I just get the feeling that Joey is trolling with stink bait seeing who he can hook and play for while. Best I can tell, even he thought the water was saline too because he responded in that thread with the following statement:

Originally Posted by Joey
You may want to read about the Sultan Sea...

The issue with salinity in a marsh is evaporation. The water evaporates, the salt doesn't. With a clay bottom and that much surface area, you might as well get a contract with, Mortons, you'll have a salt marsh in a decade.

Last edited by jpsdad; 10/15/21 06:32 AM.

Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 69
Likes: 1
A
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
A
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 69
Likes: 1
Wow!
Did not expect such a discussion- but really like the enthusiasm that goes beyond my scientific knowledge!

I do know that my pond water is very dynamic and all pond enthusiasts experience these concerns. This is a true and continuing education that this Pond Boss Forum provides all of us!

Now- I have slowly added 200 lbs of alum by mixing in 5 gallon buckets and distributed across pond surface with my pond boat an electric motor to disperse. PH remains around 7.5 and alkalinity of 40-50. Considering Phosclear as it contains the buffer. Should I wait until the spring to continue or proceed in a few weeks?

Thanks for the active replies!

Al Allison

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,872
Likes: 158
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,872
Likes: 158
Be very careful with straight alum, with alkalinity that low the pH can change rapidly.

Look in either the latest issue of Pond Boss Magazine or 2 issues ago, there was a good article on using alum to tie up nutrients.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 69
Likes: 1
A
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
A
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 69
Likes: 1
Thanks- Will re-read the articles and watch PH carefully. PH 7.5 yesterday .
Thanks again.


Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Brad Bortz, kennyboy1951, Riverdale, Wikedhd
Recent Posts
I Have A Poacher…
by anthropic - 10/24/21 10:34 PM
East Texas Water Levels
by anthropic - 10/24/21 10:31 PM
Newish Quarter to Third Acre Pond
by STP - 10/24/21 08:46 PM
Laying Fiber Optics- Free Fish Habitat
by RAH - 10/24/21 01:06 PM
How fish adapt. Sciency but fascinating!
by esshup - 10/23/21 10:26 PM
Hello- Thoughts/Opinions appreciated!
by Savage - 10/23/21 03:33 PM
Best scope for 22 cal rifle
by RAH - 10/23/21 02:50 PM
My front yard cow pond
by Augie - 10/23/21 08:50 AM
Help identifying Species
by Hilochee - 10/22/21 09:34 AM
Trail cam pics
by esshup - 10/22/21 09:27 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Tilapia indoors and out
Tilapia indoors and out
by highflyer, September 29
Naiad vs chara?
Naiad vs chara?
by marlin304, September 26
spreading bentonite
spreading bentonite
by Guppy1, September 20
Hurricanes and wildlife 1
Hurricanes and wildlife 1
by Stressless, September 1
pondr 5a
pondr 5a
by Stressless, August 18
Well fed sunfish
Well fed sunfish
by DNickolaus, August 16

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5