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We got perfect conditions last week before leaving on vacation: Full pond, warm water, no wind, 1.5 units to be used. This time I tried applying to a side where theory has it there is a leaky interface between hard-pan subsoil and the excavated soil as it angles downhill.
Dumped quite a lot on that side with help from neighbors. Came back and it looks to have made an improvement! This may have been the culprit for the majority of the leaking. Only longer-term watching will give me any decent answers.

Today it is raining again, so I wont get a good read on leak rate, but having a full pond this time of year is rare so I am thrilled.

The skeeters are enjoying all this rain though :-(, making it rather difficult to spend any time there.

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Getting kind of excited. Lost a whole 1/4" of water over a period of a WEEK. Yes, you read right, from losing near an inch a day to 1/4" in a week! Perhaps there is ground water making it in that I cannot see keeping things abnormally high after all the rain we had, but this is significant. It has been in the 80's and dry as well, so frankly I am shocked. This stuff WORKS.

More time will tell the real story as we go through one of our driest months: August.

The first attempt on the main downhill side of the dam improved things a bit, roughly slowed leaking to about 1/2 of what it was. (Earlier posts in this thread) I went from an a bit less than an inch a day, to a little less than 1/3 inch a day. The pond would still drain down about 3' in two months of summer to about the same point as before treating. Rain or no rain. Just took longer to get there.

This second application along the damn that follows the downhill slope on the "side" seems to be a major improvement. I assumed there is a junction/seam between undisturbed base soils (very low leakage) and the excavated soils which make the dam, creating a channel for water. No keyway was created/packed on this side, it was just run over with a dozer a few times, which we know is designed NOT to compact.

In addition, the cattails on the main dam are slowly fading away as they no longer have a steady seep of water to thrive on from the first application. I need to check the neighbor's "spring" that appeared in the middle of their field after we built the pond to see if it dried up with this latest application. The family renting that field for Soybeans are none too pleased with a tire eater out there.

Maybe I will finally be able to get my waterlilies to thrive instead of them drying up at the end of summer.

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Good job liquidsquid!

Hopefully the skeeters won't like it when the backside of the dam gets all dried out now that you have apparently stopped the leak.

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That's great news!!!


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If my new pond does not seal up, I me need to try soilfloc as well. I am very unsure on this one.

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Originally Posted by RAH
If my new pond does not seal up, I me need to try soilfloc as well. I am very unsure on this one.

Apart from being messy if it is damp out or it is too hot to wear a painters disposable outfit and you sweat, the stuff just disappears after a day or two. Seemingly no effect on the wildlife, including my very large resident water snake (non-poisonous, so it gets to stay).

I found also the best way to clean up is just jump in the untreated end of the pond and rinse off by swimming around a bit. Using the hose takes forever, and if your well water is chilly like ours, rather unpleasant. You DON'T want to shower if on a septic system covered with dust, as I cannot imagine something that is meant to plug up soils is even remotely a good idea to get down the drain. I used a inflatable rowboat to apply, and letting it rain on it, then dry in the sun gets it fairly well cleaned up as it flakes off.

My ropes on the other hand; fine until they get wet. Use old rope or cheap stuff you can toss.

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Thanks for all of that detailed advice on actually USING the soilfloc!

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For more detail of how I applied. YMMV.

Supplies:
Use 5mil or thicker disposable Nitrile gloves. Easier clean up, and if you get too slippery to hold stuff, switch out the gloves.
Use N95 masks (you should have plenty kicking about now). No good to get dust in your lungs.
Safety glasses or goggles, you don't want dust in your eyes or rub your eye. Very hard to get out. It wont hurt you, but annoying.
If too hot for a full suit, wear cloths you can chuck out.
Bare feet or wool socks. You will slip about in the boat, water shoes, or sandals, so kneeling is best. Knee pads that you use for gardening will help.
If you must cross 50' of water, get two lengths of 50' rope and two helpers. 100' need 2x100' lengths (etc). Tie each to ether end of the boat. Each helper will keep the boat positioned absolutely.
I used two of those large feed buckets to hold parts A and B on either end of the boat, easier to access and much less spill than a 5 gallon bucket.
People have used Solo cups, they collapse easily. I found using large plastic drinking glasses, one color or well marked for each type for throwing (A & B). Textured plastic will help keep a grip on the cup.
I tried using a spreader, but a single drop of water on the spreading mechanism ends the project as it gums up. Mine lasted abut 5 minutes as I splashed it to get in the boat. Went and got cups.

Applying:
I started from the shoreline, probably 12 feet away, and worked up and down the shoreline. You want to give yourself plenty of room to throw hard and wide. Don't get it on the shoreline. The further out and wide you can spread a pair of cups full, the better. If not, it glops up too much and captures air and floats. the goal is to sink it. A good throw will allow you to A/B an area (A first, B directly on top), then A/B half over a thrown area and into a new area (layering). You can tell when you have a good application when a light coating of material stays on top without sinking right away. Have your helpers move you in your throw widths when you ask.
I worked 4 passes, about 10' further out each. Then I worked my way back in and addressed areas that looked a little light on application. In total about an area 50x40' for a 1.5 units.

Notes:
Part A is snot, part B is gel clumps.
Part A will continue to swell and spread over the surface making the treated area look much larger than where you threw, but I assume it is a minority of un-sunken material.
Warm water it sinks faster, making it more difficult to track where you threw. Cold water it hangs around longer.
Algae in clear water will form on some material and lift it up with O2 bubbles a few days later. I doubt that is an issue, but if you have lots of bubbly algae, it may be best to treat the area several days ahead of time.

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"but if you have lots of bubbly algae, it may be best to treat the area several days ahead of time."

You mean treat the area with an algaecide several days ahead of time?


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Hey all, new here.

So I dug a small pond earlier this summer on my back pasture but it won't hold water. I dug a couple test holes prior to digging and found clay but after digging the pond the ground appeared much more silty and rocky than I was hoping. Not huge, it's about 20 feet wide, 70 feet long and 5 feet deep. After filling it up full it drained completely in a little over a week so I re-dug the overflow pipe and tried packing it in better and now tonight (weather pending) I'm going to apply soilfloc. I bought 55lbs of part A and 55lbs of partB; my plan is to turn the fill pump off while applying and wait about an hour afterwards and then turn it back on. My thought is I don't want the water level to fall too much before the soilfloc has a chance to settle. It's cold water too as it's mostly from a mountain stream. Does that sound feasible? Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

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Originally Posted by esshup
"but if you have lots of bubbly algae, it may be best to treat the area several days ahead of time."

You mean treat the area with an algaecide several days ahead of time?

Yes, correct.

Of note, pond at full pool two weeks after our last significant rain. Leak appears to have slowed even more, though I do have inflow from a shallow stream. This will be the first fall ever I don't need to retrieve my float raft out from 3' down.

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Originally Posted by scpd21
Hey all, new here.

So I dug a small pond earlier this summer on my back pasture but it won't hold water. I dug a couple test holes prior to digging and found clay but after digging the pond the ground appeared much more silty and rocky than I was hoping. Not huge, it's about 20 feet wide, 70 feet long and 5 feet deep. After filling it up full it drained completely in a little over a week so I re-dug the overflow pipe and tried packing it in better and now tonight (weather pending) I'm going to apply soilfloc. I bought 55lbs of part A and 55lbs of partB; my plan is to turn the fill pump off while applying and wait about an hour afterwards and then turn it back on. My thought is I don't want the water level to fall too much before the soilfloc has a chance to settle. It's cold water too as it's mostly from a mountain stream. Does that sound feasible? Thanks in advance for any thoughts.


Update:

So it's definitely leaking slower now that I got an application of soilfloc on . . it appears the bottom is pretty well sealed off but I'd like to get another treatment and attempt to seal off the walls better . . is two weeks between treatments enough time? I want to clear some of the grasses out around the top of the sides as well before I put another 100+ lbs in. Probably leaking around 1/2 inch every 2 hours now; I'd be real happy if my sump pump only had to run once a day going forward instead of a couple times.

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I was going to make a new thread, but I guess I'll just add to this one. I had a question regarding SoilFloc and its ability to treat turbidity as it's being applied. I have read about DamIt, another polymer product, and it says on their website that it does create a chemical charge that grabs onto suspended particles and sinks them, similar to the effects of aluminum sulfate. Does SoilFloc also do this? Part 2 of my question pertains to the substrate that it can be applied to. In my new pond, heavy rains have eroded away lots of my bank and a noticeable gravel vein has been revealed. Will any of the polymers work in such a situation? I want to nip these problems in the bud before my pond gets any fuller, if possible.


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Hi Steve

Damit, ESS 13, DB 100 are linear polymers - one part treatment. Linear polymers act as flocculants just like Alum or Gypsum - polymer is cationic (positive charged ion) which attracts anionic (negative charged ion) clay and organic particles, bind, and sink them to pond bottom. This action often results in improving clarity depending on the application amount.

I've worked with one part polymers multiple times over the past 7-8 years and have had partial success - but nothing compared to using two part polymers. Several reasons I won't ever use one part, linear polymers again are:

They require denser application - resulting in much higher treatment cost
Product is more expensive by volume - again, resulting in much higher treatment cost
ESS 13 shades water grey for 4-6 weeks, photosynthesis ceases, often resulting in DO crash and fishery fill event
Linear polymers alone do not address leak issues like sand, gravel, shale, rock, etc. - they merely act as a soil conditioner which often has zero affect on leak rate
My personal experience using single part linear polymers [including data from my clients and resellers] places their success rate about 25% - that's far too low to justify the expense

I use two part polymers - Soilfloc is one I used for years but I have found the same polymer product which is cheaper by volume and freight cost as it's not coming from San Diego like Soilfloc. The two part polymer treatment uses linear polymer described above but includes a cross linked polymer treatment also. The CL polymer is designed to be pulled into the fissure[s] by the current of the leak and over the course of 3-4 weeks expands 300x its original size. The crosslinked polymer addresses voids created by gravel, sand, poorly compacted soil, clay with foreign materials [organic, etc], rock, shale, etc. My success rate working with two part polymer treatments are 90% - reducing leak rate by 50% or better. I've been using the new two part polymer for a couple years now on 200+ projects and couldn't be happier saving folks money on treatment and freight.

It's counter intuitive the two part polymer is cheaper, but also significantly more effective. I wonder often how those other polymers stay in business.

As a volunteer here on Pond Boss I am happy to walk through anyone's issues and provide recommendations - I love working on pond construction, rehab, and leak resolution. As always my time is free to my Pond Boss family and if you end up going the polymer route I'd love to save you money on the treatment budget, too. It's always appreciated when the PB family throws a little business the way of the moderator volunteer, too! grin

I'm an email away anytime - ping me if you want to chat, Steve. Hope some of this was helpful!

tj@hudlandmgmt.com


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TJ, this is the first I've heard of the new product. Can you tell us more about it?


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Thank you, TJ. That definitely gives me something to think about. I've been watching videos, both good and bad, and I've seen quite a few people have great success with one-part polymers such as DamIt, and it's around 1/3 of the cost of SoilFloc iirc. The one thing about DamIt that appealed to me was the fact they say you can apply it to dry ground before the pond fills up. Can SoilFloc do that?

I'm not in full panic mode yet, but I definitely have some concerns regarding the current and future integrity of my pond. Luckily it's a small pond, so if I go the polymer route, I should only need 1 unit (of part A and part B) of SoilFloc to treat it.


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With anything that you apply to the dry ground, you have to incorporate it into the ground then when the pond fills you have to make dang sure the inflowing water doesn't scour that away. i.e. if you use a hose to fill the pond or a pipe, have the water splash out onto a big tarp so it doesn't erode the ground as it flows into the pond. If it does, more than likely you can have a leak in that spot.

With SoilFloc, if that does happen, all you have to do is apply some over that area once the pond is full.


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Originally Posted by Steve_
Thank you, TJ. That definitely gives me something to think about. I've been watching videos, both good and bad, and I've seen quite a few people have great success with one-part polymers such as DamIt, and it's around 1/3 of the cost of SoilFloc iirc. The one thing about DamIt that appealed to me was the fact they say you can apply it to dry ground before the pond fills up. Can SoilFloc do that?

I'm not in full panic mode yet, but I definitely have some concerns regarding the current and future integrity of my pond. Luckily it's a small pond, so if I go the polymer route, I should only need 1 unit (of part A and part B) of SoilFloc to treat it.


Steve - you should verify with Damit application amount [volume] and product cost plus freight [comes from Australia] and we can compare numbers. Last time I ran into them on a project their cost was 5x higher, client went for it, did nothing for his leak [see reasons above], and we resolved the leak issue for $500. Lesson learned I guess. I won't use single treatment polymers [linear] alone when I can double the insurance with two part polymers at a fraction of the cost.


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Originally Posted by Bobbss
TJ, this is the first I've heard of the new product. Can you tell us more about it?

It's the same two part polymer produced in the same factory but cuts out marketing costs, middle men/resellers/brokers, and freight is significantly cheaper as it's not shipped from the West Coast. The product and freight cost savings is passed directly to my PB family - every little bit helps!


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Thanks TJ!


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I did some number-crunching, to see what the different costs are between DamIt and SoilFloc.

1 15L Pail of DamIt costs $257.56 and treats 1614 sq ft, for a cost-per-sqaure-foot of 15.9 cents.

1 55 pound supply (27.5 pounds of Part A, and 27.5 pounds of Part B) costs $345 and treats 1750 sq ft for a cost-per-square-foot of 19.7 cents.

So DamIt is 19.3% cheaper than SoilFloc. These are only estimates, of course, as you may need more or less, depending on the size of your leak(s). Obviously, if SoilFloc is that much better and reliable, then it's worth spending the extra money on it.


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Steve, I have used soilfloc before. One unit used to be around $550.00 and breaks down into 4, 5 gallon buckets. One 15l bucket of Damit is about 4 gallons, so it would take 5 buckets of Damit to equal 1 unit of soilfloc,, dry material, that would be about $1300.00(damit price) . It states that damit will cover more sq ft, but I don't see how. I confess, I have used a pail of damit before, I applied it with a seed spreader, It didn't go very far.

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Originally Posted by Steve_
I did some number-crunching, to see what the different costs are between DamIt and SoilFloc.

1 15L Pail of DamIt costs $257.56 and treats 1614 sq ft, for a cost-per-sqaure-foot of 15.9 cents.

1 55 pound supply (27.5 pounds of Part A, and 27.5 pounds of Part B) costs $345 and treats 1750 sq ft for a cost-per-square-foot of 19.7 cents.

So DamIt is 19.3% cheaper than SoilFloc. These are only estimates, of course, as you may need more or less, depending on the size of your leak(s). Obviously, if SoilFloc is that much better and reliable, then it's worth spending the extra money on it.

Your math is correct, but I'll provide some different data for you.

1 unit of the two part polymer I'm using is $450. That's 55# linear, 55# crosslinked - 110#/ unit.

1 unit treats up to 4,000 sq ft. [application rate depends on daily vertical water loss - we're usually between 3000-4000].

Dammit is a linear polymer - linear polymers are not designed to address gravel, sand, rock etc. - that's where the crosslinked polymer shines.

Another factor to consider is freight...if Dammit is coming from AU I'm assuming it's more expensive than my polymer shipping from the Midwest. Freight averages $75-$150 for most projects depending on location and weight.

I've worked directly on 50 projects in NE [application] and consulted on 500+ more nationwide and have experience with all the pond sealing polymers available on the market. There's a reason I now use what I use - 90% success rate blows everything out of the water, and at a fraction of the price.

Always appreciate when the PB family allows me to help them resolve seepage issues - it's great way to expand my Pond Boss family and for members to support Pond Boss sponsors/volunteer moderators who help make this forum a free resource for all, too!

I'm always a call away - my time is free, happy to help walk through scenarios with anyone. Leaking ponds stink - help is available.


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So what's the name of this new miracle polymer and how do we get it? laugh


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It’s not a new polymer, it’s the same polymer we’ve been using for several years, it’s just cheaper now through these new relationships. I have been providing volunteer consulting for the forum for many years and I can help line up your options - if polymer is the best solution for your budget and goals then we'll tackle the project together. I’m just an email away - happy to chat about leaks, fishery or pond management, stocking strategies, rehab, etc. - my time is always free to my PB family, for anything, and always will be. I’ve made every costly mistake possible and can help you avoid my failures.

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