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OK, short story. I started really stocking this pond in 2018 - It's been on the property for over 30 years - NEVER had a issue with it draining but no creek flowing it so it's a large pothole, water level varying by up to 2.5' over a year period.

In March of 2020 the local stock business came out with a load and he called - "your pond is gone"

Mid-Ohio - 1400'x 80' lake widest is 120' 2.5 Surface acres

I don't believe any fish will survive the current lake levels and weather

In Mar 2019 it went from
[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

to Jan 2020 -
[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

The shale drain that opened up.
[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

It's a long narrowish 2.5 SA pond that took a bunch of 5#+ LMB out with it.

The Plan:

- hire excavator company to scoop out the ridge going down the middle of long pond an build a 8'-10' bermed road on the spoil bank side 12" above planned lake level
-- Every 300' put a 20'x20' landing coming out from the Spoil side and incorporating the 8'-10' wide road Lake is 1400' long. Put 3 landings in
- put 6'PVC drain in the existing seep, Plug (first big question) and build 6"PVC snorkel drain 6" above old lake level
- hire the local stoking CO - I'm pretty sure I'd want this to be a smallmouth and walleye perch and bluegill lake adding forage yearly

So now I've got two requests

- How to plug the hole correctly to ensure the 6' PVC doesn't get comrimised and the shale is plugged far enough to prevent alternate seepage

- What would you stock with and why?

Last edited by Stressless; 07/07/21 06:39 AM.

8 Ponds in Mid-East Ohio, three streams that merge to 1.

Fishbowl Pond - 1.5 acre, family swimming hole, 22'
Figure 8 Pond - 1.25 acre, 15'
Long Pond - 2.5 acre 20'
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I would just let it go. It looks like it would be very risky, like an endless money pit trying to stop it leaking. Long term, it would probably happen again in another spot.

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Understand that reasonable suggestion, but for this instance we're gonna put thats the only seep, been 100% with that for over 30 years... more like 60. Something occurred which I know about to cause it and a plug on this end will recover the integrity. How to do that with best chance of success is what advice I'd like to hear. Folks that have actually done it. Win loose or draw - experience.


8 Ponds in Mid-East Ohio, three streams that merge to 1.

Fishbowl Pond - 1.5 acre, family swimming hole, 22'
Figure 8 Pond - 1.25 acre, 15'
Long Pond - 2.5 acre 20'
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I have 100% confidence in the area being sealed to prevent it from happening again if it is dug out and packed at least 24" thick with clay that is placed in 6" thick lifts, compacted and repeated.

As for the fish stocking, if you won't have Largemouth Bass in there, I would ditch the regular Bluegills, and add a mix of 50/50 Redear Sunfish and Hybrid Bluegills. Can you stock Hybrid Striped Bass in your area of Ohio?


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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Yes, he can. But he could also do YP/RES/SMB very successfully.

HSB are fun to catch, but I never liked eating them.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
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I'm thinking about making this pond, Long Pond, a SMB, Walleye and Perch - I don't think I can 1. eradicate the reg blluegill or 2. keep them out all the other fish are dead. I'ld be adding forage FHM, GS and Tilapia yearly for at least 2-3 years until the predators get big enough. Also all three prime predators "more than likely" can't reproduce in this pond.

I agree with the HSB, I like the SMB fight better and like to taste better than HSB.

So I'd have this one Long Pond 2.5 SA with these three species, Walleye, SMB and Perch, and the Fishbowl pond, 1.5 SA as a LMB/BG/RES pond.

Not sure if they'll have to pump the rest of the water out when excavating or not, if so that'll make the BG "leftover" BG issue moot for restocking Long Pond.

Last edited by Stressless; 02/01/21 08:04 AM.

8 Ponds in Mid-East Ohio, three streams that merge to 1.

Fishbowl Pond - 1.5 acre, family swimming hole, 22'
Figure 8 Pond - 1.25 acre, 15'
Long Pond - 2.5 acre 20'
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SMB, WE and YP along with a good forage base works for me as well.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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A question I would have on the pond leaking, draining down, how long of a period of time did it take for the pond to drain down to that point? the answer to that question would give a better idea of the chances of sealing that off permanently, if it was a slow leak that took weeks for it to drain down to that point it should be easier to fix, however if it went down over night you have a lot bigger hole below the surface that has eroded away and will be a lot harder to repair, I had a fellow here local that had a ten yr old pond drain out over night, assume drained into some underground cave, Im not sure if he ever did get that fixed permanently, I know they pumped a lot of grout into the hole trying to close it off. Good luck!


All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
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Here's the updated story as it applies to this project.

Two ponds, Neighbors Pond (NP) and Long Pond (LP), surface elevation in Mar 2019 were 5' different - Neighbor pond was 5' lower than LP.

When the dam blew out of NP, it dropped NP level by about 10', LP by about 7'. Also in a 4-5 month period since NP dam failure another pond Figure8 Pond (F8P) water level dropped by 6' as well - it is about 120' from LP. In the Mar 2019 GOOGLE EARTH surface elevation, or height above MSL, of F8P it was the exact same height above MSL as LP so this activity 'should' fix both ponds water level issues. We are debating on raising the water level in Long Pond by 1' or 12" with the new overflow in Long Pond keeping the MSL surface height of both LP and F8P constant, they might go below the overflow in drought but will not go above that height which might have contributed to the cascading failure.

The plan changed over the last year in a couple key areas:
- Creating an overflow to the East of LP instead of through the highwall seep
- Creating a overflow on NP to regulate the height and prevent another catastrophic failure
- Closing and packing the seep with plug material including bentonite + 2' thick clay layer above and below the identified seep and 30' laterally
- Using Beaver resistant overflows to mitigate the ponds height rising and flows across the dams

[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

My neighbor had a strip mine pond that didn't have an overflow, the water just ran over the berm of the "dam" which was a road used when the area was stripped in the late 40's 50's. Then reused as a forestry timber road since... O/A April 2019 the water flowing over the berm had cut through the berm enough to become a catastrophic flow and cut the berm about 20' wide and 12' deep (yellow X)losing the retention pressure and allowing the seep thru the highwall to flow unabated (red dots and arrow). The aqua dot and arrows are the new overflows to manage the surface heights of NP and LP.

Went thru Pond Boss and some other forums to review ideas and get some new ideas on how to attack this problem. Got several recommendations on a Amish pond/lake builder and had him out in Mar 20 to get a perspective on how to attack the problem (he'll be referred to as the Contractor) and he wasn't positive on just trying to fix the problem on my land. Talked it over with the neighbor and we agreed to have the contractor out again and look at the catastrophic failure on his berm.

We all met in early June walked the berm and reviewed where to get fill etc to fix that NP problem and perhaps raise the NP level 12"-18" on his side. We all shook hands and walked away from the problem with a positive sense that we could not only fix this mess but improve the outcome, add preventative measures so that it doesn't happen again and improve the quality and accessibility of both ponds.

I talked with the contractor this AM and should have a quote by the end of the week. Tentative start date on the project will be the first week of August starting with the work on the LP side, creating an overflow from Long pond to the natural fall line on my property to the East/SouthEast.

I'll be updating this thread (if) the quote comes in as expected and we move forward. Taking a knee and saying a lil' prayer that this will go as planned and the issues that can be mitigated are being done.

If it works as planned, then I'll revisit the re-stocking plan for the fishery in LP and F8P.

Asking for folks to red team this, this is a one chance, expensive endeavor so all observations are encouraged.

Looking to get a cement truck out with boom like you pour a foundation. or Oil and Gas crew with the mud/cement they plug wells with,

Plug the NP side with couple bags of quickcrete and shoot the slurry into the LP void side to plug +130' with hydraulic cement figure .75' opening 150' long at the outside Volume = π×.752×150 = 265.1 feet3 =~ 10 cubic yards of cement if it flows proper thru the void. let that harden and cap the LP side with a large patch of bentonite. Cover the whole thing with 2' of clay top to bottom and 30' to the sides.

So if everything works out, dam redone in NP, plug works in LP we'll have to drain the rest of the water out of LP to do the work in LP. So the amount of rain water to replenish that pond is based off the surface area that drains into it(514,000sqft)/a permeability ratio, /1000(sq ft) X 620 (1' of rain in 1000sqft = 620 gallons of water or .62 gallons/sqft) in an impermeable surface...

The figures for the touched-up i.e., completed LP are avg 14' deep, 65' wide, 1100' long = 7,488,000.00 us gallons.

With no "permeability" 1" of rain in the LP watershed would produce 514,000 x .62 = 318,680 gallons. or ~ 4% of the LP volume.

OH gets on avg 40" of rain a year so 40" x 4% = 160% of LP volume with no loss/ permeability so it'll take, most likely ~ 1 -> 1.5 years to fill LP to the overflow or 160% - 240% of LP water volume with loss and permeability.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) Has anyone used hydro cement or a Oil/Gas to fill a rock fissure?

2) I assume the pH will be off as the new water fills the void to the overflow. What's the best method tocheck and correct lime in a ~7.5 million gallon pond?

Thanks - we're looking at starting work at he end of July and should take two weeks to have both ponds dammed and overflows installed. All observations are encouraged and appreciated.

Stressless


8 Ponds in Mid-East Ohio, three streams that merge to 1.

Fishbowl Pond - 1.5 acre, family swimming hole, 22'
Figure 8 Pond - 1.25 acre, 15'
Long Pond - 2.5 acre 20'
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stressless, Are these in a region of faulting? Was there an earthquake around the time of these events - even a small 2 to 3 magnitude quake that some might not notice but would be picked up on seismographs?


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Originally Posted by jpsdad
stressless, Are these in a region of faulting? Was there an earthquake around the time of these events - even a small 2 to 3 magnitude quake that some might not notice but would be picked up on seismographs?

Not that I'm aware - as I said above, the neighbors pond was just flowing over the dam/road and finally cut thru to create a catastrophic washout of his dam, which allowed the 'crack' to gain water velocity which washed and enlarged the crack.

*Assumption - fixing the dam on his side, NP + raising NP 1' will provide hydro relief to the flow from LP
*Assumption - filling the crack with bentonite/mud after sealing his end, NP, to the mouth of the crack on LP will seal the crack
*Assumption - putting a bentonite cap at the entrance of the crack's plug on LP and covering with 1' of clay top to bottom and 30' on either side should prevent another seep
*Assumption - putting overflows on both ponds, neither had one prior, will prevent overfilling and possible rupture above the sealed area

Last edited by Stressless; 07/07/21 08:46 AM.

8 Ponds in Mid-East Ohio, three streams that merge to 1.

Fishbowl Pond - 1.5 acre, family swimming hole, 22'
Figure 8 Pond - 1.25 acre, 15'
Long Pond - 2.5 acre 20'
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Stressless,

I don't think this has anything to do with NP pond. I would urge you to seek to properly line at least the known problem areas in the way esshup suggested. I might even give esshup a call to see if he might be willing to oversee it. If your resolution is in your ponds and on your property then you aren't depending on anything and anyone else. It's not likely anything you are able to convince your neighbor to do will help your situation. I would focus solely on how to make a tub of my own ponds.

IMHO, something changed subsurface and this why so many spatially separated ponds are affected. I don't think the neighbors dam break had anything to do with your pond's failure ... even though they may have co-occurred. Probably ... everything is connected to some other event. My sense is that your pond spilled down to the leak and from there it went DEEP. You pond is a tub up to that point. In order to be sure that the pond holds water ... you must at the very least patch the spill point such that it is no likely to fail soon. I don't think this will require a cement plug but then maybe I am wrong about that.


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Strip pit lakes are noted for blowing out. The spoil ridges are quite porous.
No compaction, just loose shale, clay, rock, and coal.

That so many of them hold water at all is a wonder. There are quite a few around here that
are just big swampy holes in the ground.

It's not unusual to have underground connections between adjacent pits. Years ago I
had access to a property that was "reclaimed" strip mine land. One year beavers plugged
the spill pipe on what we called the Big Pit. It over-topped and cut a spoil ridge at the other
end of the pond. The water level dropped about 12', and within a day or two the adjacent
pit, 300+ feet away by land, had dropped almost as much. The property owners didn't
attempt to find and fix the connection between the two pits. They fixed the blowout in the
Big Pit and installed a new spill pipe six feet or so higher than the level of the original drain.
When the Big Pit started to refill the Little Pit followed it. When the Big Pit filled to the level
of the spill pipe the Little Pit also stopped filling, but not before it had connected to another
small pit by over-topping a spoil ridge. They installed an additional spill pipe on that pit at
same elevation of the new spill pipe on the other pit. When it was all over the Big Pit had
become the Little Big Pit, and the Little Pit turned into the Big Little Pit.

It's quite possible that the hole opening up in Stressless Long Pond is what caused the Neighbor
Pond to blow out, rather than the opposite. I think Stressless is on the right track to fix his pond,
but I wouldn't want to lay odds on it staying fixed.

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Thx Augie, I contacted two mud loggers from Oil & Gas services - around myarea the Utica Shale play is alive and being drilled.

We discussed the bentonite slurry in the middle and cement at both ends and one had actually fixed a pod 8 years ago with this method. While I agree that
Quote
"correlation does not equal causation"
the likelihood that both events "didn't happen interdependently over a 60 year period and then occurred together is compelling.

And as Augie pointed out, ponds connected via spoil banks (where they place overburden from a strip mine operation) - my Figure8 pond dropped the exact same amount as LP, (Google earth has the surface elevation exactly he same prior to the blow out) I expect Figure8 pond to rise to the level of the new overflow installed in LP.

If it works...


8 Ponds in Mid-East Ohio, three streams that merge to 1.

Fishbowl Pond - 1.5 acre, family swimming hole, 22'
Figure 8 Pond - 1.25 acre, 15'
Long Pond - 2.5 acre 20'
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Originally Posted by Stressless
If it works...

Strip pit ponds are a high-risk deal.

There's simply no way to know what's under those heaps of spoil.

Fix one spot and another may blow out the next day.

It's a crap shoot for sure.

They make for really nice ponds when they hold water. Good luck with the fixing.

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[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

Copy all Augie - I've got one shot at it which is why I'm here asking for all advice / views. LP was a monster maker without any human touch. This 7.5# LMB was from 2016, I started started stocking forage in 2018, figure there were 4-5 8-10# LMB in that one - in OH when it blew out. So ya, I'm ate up and willing to invest $$,$$$.$$ at a chance to get it back but I want to slant the playing deck as far in my favor as possible. 30 years in the military taught me a couple things, fortune favors the bold and a fair fight is just poor planning on your part.


8 Ponds in Mid-East Ohio, three streams that merge to 1.

Fishbowl Pond - 1.5 acre, family swimming hole, 22'
Figure 8 Pond - 1.25 acre, 15'
Long Pond - 2.5 acre 20'
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Guys, I am just saying. Three interconnected ponds ... not by intention ... but by subsurface. It just seems a bit hopeful that they only connect with each other in a goldilocks way where fixing the neighbors dam will fix them all. My 2 cents go to esshup's tack on the problem, but I concede to your wisdom Augie and Stressless, will watch with interest, and wish you success with this.

BTW. That's a great fish.


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Two bentonite pumpers from the oil patch contacted working the stick to get an agreement - no standard for them but necessarily unheard of.

Contractor and I discussed it a couple times. I urged him to get BOG and eyes on it again - I want the quote to be fair for the work. He came back yesterday and brought a small hoe - He got that stuck in the first 20' = he went and got his big hoe and dug the little hoe out. No damage to any equipment but his ego was a lil' bruised. I've seen enough equipment operators working to see he's good, SO we both chatted and have a 75% plan.

The "seep" is at least 20' 18"x10" which is actually good for the bentonite pumpers they can mix a heavier specific gravity to plug better.

We should be at work in a couple weeks.


8 Ponds in Mid-East Ohio, three streams that merge to 1.

Fishbowl Pond - 1.5 acre, family swimming hole, 22'
Figure 8 Pond - 1.25 acre, 15'
Long Pond - 2.5 acre 20'
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Stressless, You might be able to get the bentonite slurry for free. I'm not familiar with Ohio laws but it might be workable. Go out to the closest job sites where there are drilling rigs running. Contact the onsite Company man who represents the Operator of the project. Ask if he is using a bentonite mud system to drill the well. If so they have to discard or haul off the bentonite drilling fluid for disposal which costs the operator money. If laws there will let it happen, then he can discard it into your fracture. It is a win-win for both parties. His cost is for the vacuum pump trucks and he is not paying for disposal. Your cost is zero! It is done in Texas but again I don't know the Ohio laws.

Last edited by TGW1; 07/16/21 09:33 AM.

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
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Stressless, I believe you have a workable plan. I agree with TGW1, it might be a way to save some $$.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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TGW1 - Thanks! My brother used to work in the oil patch so I called some drillers/operators and working on getting a company to plug about 50' and large cap over the entrance - we'll put a couple feet over that as well.

We should be pumping water out of the 1/4 acre left, starting today! - the excavator noticed a couple LARGE catfish in that survived the 1/4 last winter so that'll be interesting.

I truly wish this forum was more advanced to post pics and videos, the knowledge base here can not be beat. I plan to update as events warrant - mostly over at the forum that is much more user friendly (for posting a blog like story). I'll add the link to it as I don't/won't have the time or patience to redo all the pics the way this forum mandates. Not a "piss-on" Pond-Boss just factual. I truly hope they take this forum to the next level.

Dropping a couple $5,000 bills to getrdone so any advice along the way is GREATLY appreciated as this goes over the next 2-3 weeks.


8 Ponds in Mid-East Ohio, three streams that merge to 1.

Fishbowl Pond - 1.5 acre, family swimming hole, 22'
Figure 8 Pond - 1.25 acre, 15'
Long Pond - 2.5 acre 20'
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Multiple angles of attack on-going... first serious day - first day with trackhoe.

Pumped Sat and Sat nite, restarted this AM

[Linked Image]pic1

We hope to make it to the area where there is high dry overburden today. Once there he's gonna dig channels to drain the potholes to where the pump is... about 900'-1000' to go.

Made the initial goal, access to the middle berm to drain all the potholes into one.


[Linked Image][img]http://[/img]Pic2

ID'd the far end for the dam at that end. About 300' cut in..

[Linked Image]Pic3

Got the dozer in, only slightly stuck once this AM, dig'em deep, pile'em high! (AF Red Horse motto) New dam at the North end of the pond..

Bentonite pumper on line waiting to schedule 📅

About halfway in the pond, ~1100' long avg 70' wide.

[Linked Image]pic3


Both banks, one spoil one highwall made it inaccessible except for a nasty swampy launch at one end.

Such a treat already to be able to roll in 300+' on a 10' path!

Making the road go across the dam at the North end for access to the overflow and other maintenance.


Few hours later N Dam taking shape...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Pic that'll reoccur... on the North dam, looking at making a shelf for bedding about 6-8' wide along parts of this... asking the learned masses on this forum what's the best depth for the shelf for bluegill and bass beds...

[Linked Image]Pic5

Last edited by Stressless; 08/03/21 09:03 PM.

8 Ponds in Mid-East Ohio, three streams that merge to 1.

Fishbowl Pond - 1.5 acre, family swimming hole, 22'
Figure 8 Pond - 1.25 acre, 15'
Long Pond - 2.5 acre 20'
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Weather has been perfect for this to get started, fingers crossed 🤞 for some more...

North end is roughed in.

Road down to the first bumpout.. the first two bumpouts should be done by end of tomorrow. Had Steve Fender stop in and give me some good advice.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Stressless; 08/04/21 06:04 PM.

8 Ponds in Mid-East Ohio, three streams that merge to 1.

Fishbowl Pond - 1.5 acre, family swimming hole, 22'
Figure 8 Pond - 1.25 acre, 15'
Long Pond - 2.5 acre 20'
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Looking better!!!


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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been delayed but keeping up with it on a separate forum that isn't a time suck to get content up.

For the full monty please check here -> Stressless updated thread

Wanted to share here as there was some discussion on where and how for bentonite.

Got the dozer in, only slightly stuck once this AM, dig'em deep, pile'em high! (AF Red Horse motto) New dam at the North end of the pond..

Bentonite pumper on line waiting to schedule 📅

About halfway in the pond, ~1100' long avg 70' wide.

[Linked Image]


Both banks, one spoil one highwall made it inaccessible except for a nasty swampy launch at one end.

Such a treat already to be able to roll in 300+' on a 10' path!

[Linked Image]

Both banks, one spoil one highwall made it inaccessible except for a nasty swampy launch at one end.

Such a treat already to be able to roll in 300+' on a 10' path!

Few hours later N Dam taking shape...

[Linked Image]


Pic that'll reoccur... on the North dam, looking at making a shelf for bedding about 6-8' wide along parts of this... asking some forums what's the best depth for the shelf for bluegill and bass beds...

[Linked Image]

Weather has been perfect for this to get started, fingers crossed 🤞 for some more...

North end is roughed in.

Road down to the first bumpout.. the first two bumpouts should be done by end of tomorrow. Had Steve Fender stop in and give me some good advice.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Paths coming together... should be roughed in early next week

[Linked Image]

Got a bunch done on the North end and worked the South Road some as well. They'll meet in thr middle at a 17" red oak thats just above the road elevation.

A fast easy way to add structure and cover into your pond..

[video:youtube]
[/video]

Mrs and at the North Dam / road is roughed in around the inside.

[Linked Image]

Had planned for 5 bumpouts, 20x 20 or so areas to turn around on quad or UTV towing a brushhog. We decided yesterday to reduce to four about 60 yards apart and make spawing bedding benches on the four that were left based on the fill available and priorities of packing the East side highwall.

Mose brought his first helper in today so we had both the hoe and dozer working all day. Much got done. Taking a knee and back Tuesday AM- fields need rain but I need it stay off thru Wed... we'll see.

Took a little cajoling bit got them to move a bunch of fill down about 120yds where we really need it, and to set the self leveling lazer where you can see most of the road. That led to marking the entire East side for
Road height
Water level - 20"
Spawning ledge start height 2' below water height
Spawning ledge end height, 8' below water height

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Stressless; 08/13/21 09:54 AM.

8 Ponds in Mid-East Ohio, three streams that merge to 1.

Fishbowl Pond - 1.5 acre, family swimming hole, 22'
Figure 8 Pond - 1.25 acre, 15'
Long Pond - 2.5 acre 20'
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