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OP
Joined: Feb 2021
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This Spring I started working on an old 2/3 acre pond that has been untouched in 20+ years. The details can be found here: previous threadThe summary is that the pond was full of stunted LMB and no BG. I made the decision to get a healthier/bigger LMB population the hard way and not drain and start over. I culled about 23lbs/acre of LMB and added 150 4-5" BG in May. I know acheiving big LMB will be a challenge with a pond this size. As the title of this thread says, the BG are loving the pond. I caught several that were 7+" and round and fat- I'm guessing 3 times bigger than stocked sized. I have BG on spawning beds everywhere around the pond. I also see plenty of BG and LMB YOY. Things are hopping. For entertainment my wife and I will buy crickets and earthworms and toss them out and LMB and BG gather for a free meal. I'm guessing the BG are taking advantage of the empty niche in the pond. The LMB size remains unchanged. In a couple of hours fishing, I can catch 15-20 LMB. There is no statistically significant size/RW weight change from the previous sample (see previous thread above). The fish remain mostly in the 10" range and below 100% RW. I'm thinking about repeating what I did last time and dedicate a day to fishing and placing all the LMB in a 55 gallon drum (with aerator). At the end of the day, I will measure and weigh all the fish and execute (so to speak) any culling plan.
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jpsdad |
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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It sounds like you may need to intensify the LMB culling efforts.
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
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Joined: Jan 2011
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Joined: Jan 2011
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I'm with Sunil. Ruthlessly cull LMB until you lose count, then cull some more. You may be at it for quite a long time. Those small bass are good to eat. We ate nearly 300! as fish tacos from our 1/4 acre pond over a three year period. Have at it!
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roymunson |
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Big bluegill are definitely a plus.
GJ
Im going to ask a lot of questions, but only because I'm clueless
5-20 Acres in Florida. Bass/Tilapia/Bowfin/Gator
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OP
Joined: Feb 2021
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So I'm up to 99 LMB removed since the Spring for a total of just shy of 30 lbs total. I've been logging each catch.
It's very homogenous. Here's the stat:
Length (inches) Average: 8.7 Median: 9.0 StdDev: 1.5
Smallest was 6" and the largest was 14" There have been only two bass caught bigger 12" or larger. Almost all bass have been below 100% RW
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Joined: Feb 2021
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OP
Joined: Feb 2021
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On a somewhat related note, I'm looking at stocking some HSB this Fall. Still dialing in on final numbers closely followed by figuring out the right pellet feed for both the HSB and the BG and the needed amount and timing- especially as I transition into Winter.
I may start a separate thread for that discussion
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Lunker
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Lunker
Joined: Nov 2007
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Sounds like you are definitely getting your pond headed in the right direction!
Your plan for a new thread is probably also a good idea. That topic seems to generate a good discussion from people that have lots of expertise.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Somehow it seems there's not even close to enough to eat for the LMB. That may also be an issue for some HSB even if you have a feed program.
You've mentioned how well the new bluegill are doing, so we should see some increased forage numbers happening. Have you considered what kind of structure you have for newly born bluegill to use?
Regarding the feed, HSB will hit all sizes of feed, but they'll also grow quickly enough to hit the Aquamax Largemouth/Optimal Hand Throw which are all close to 1" diameter. Franky, my bluegill love those larger pellets also after they break down a bit, even though I feed two smaller sizes of pellets also.
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
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DannyMac |
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OP
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Sunil- The pond edges are full of YOY BG around the entire pond- from fry up to 1.5 inches. I can throw out a minnow trap and pull in a a couple dozed within ten minutes. The headline has been the dramatic growth of the stocked BG, but spawning started within a few weeks of stocking and YOY were evident a few weeks later. I should also note that I do pick-up a few YOY LMB in the trap but typicall just a couple.
Prior to stocking I dropped about 6 small small trees from the bank into the 2-3 deep end of the pond, and I dropped five scrub cedar tress into water that 5-7 deep that is on the shallower side of the pond. (Pond is roughly retangular with dam at a short end. Water is 10-9 foor for 2/3 of the pond as you move away from the dam and slopes 8-2 feet in the last 1/3.
Seems like plenty to eat to me. Since BG have not been iin the pond for the past 20+ years maybe the LMB need time to recongize the new menu offerings...
On the feed- I have 70lbs texas hunter feeder. I think the size of the feed that it can handle will dictate how big I can go.
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Joined: Oct 2018
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Joined: Oct 2018
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Regarding the feed, HSB will hit all sizes of feed, but they'll also grow quickly enough to hit the Aquamax Largemouth/Optimal Hand Throw which are all close to 1" diameter. I'm glad that you mentioned this. I stocked 8"-10" HSB last fall and I've been wondering if they're ready for the Hand Throw pellets. I sampled a few in the spring, and they were ranging 12"-14". I don't bother them when the water temp is above 75°F. From watching them feed I'd guess that they're running 14"-18" now. Would that size fish be able to swallow the Hand Throw pellets, or do I wait until next summer to start with that stuff? I have 20 of them, and they will wipe out a pound of the Bass pellets in less than five minutes.
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OP
Joined: Feb 2021
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Augie-
Would love to hear more about the size of your pond, how you settled on 20 fish, and your experience with feeding over the winter. I'm in Virginia with mild winters so I suspect that the HSB will feed all winter long.
Any other tips or learnings are also appreciated!
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Augie, I would say you're good to go to the Hand Throw. All fish eventually eat the larger pellets once they break up, so it's no real loss if the HSB don't get right on it. But I think a 14" HSB will tear it up, and larger HSB for sure.
I haven't really found that feed goes bad if kept dry over the winter, so I would absolutely get some Hand Throw or AQ Largemouth and start rocking.
In Western PA, I can usually feed all the way through October.
1997, sounds like you've got the structure going strong. For a 2/3 acre pond, I would conservatively start with 10-15 HSB, maybe 20, but that's just me. I don't eat them, so what I put in generally stays save for mortality.
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
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Joined: Oct 2018
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Joined: Oct 2018
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.35acre, 16' sump at full pool, shallow shelf around most of the sump, bottom-diffused aeration. RES, YP, SMB, HSB, and a ton of accidental, unwanted BG.
I probably should have only stocked 10 HSB, but I had to drive 300+ miles to pick them up and haul them home, so I wanted to make sure I got my money's worth, and I needed help thinning the BG. They aren't hard to catch, so it won't be difficult to remove a few when the need arises. HSB are as good as any other fish when released to the grease.
I generally stop feeding around the end of October. I let the fish tell me when it's time. I also give the pond a big shot of FHM in late fall.
I'm almost out of Bass pellets, and they're out of stock at Optimal. I'll order a bag of hand throw and see how they like it.
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Regarding the feed, HSB will hit all sizes of feed, but they'll also grow quickly enough to hit the Aquamax Largemouth/Optimal Hand Throw which are all close to 1" diameter. I'm glad that you mentioned this. I stocked 8"-10" HSB last fall and I've been wondering if they're ready for the Hand Throw pellets. I sampled a few in the spring, and they were ranging 12"-14". . Check the gape size of your HSB and see if the pellet is more than 30% of gape size. I use to cut LMB pellets in half to hand feed 12 in HSB. I would hand feed a few uncut pellets and see the results. If needed cut them in half. 1997 -- regarding LMB culling For LMB This is what is suggested by Dick Anderson - the Prof who wrote the book on PSD. Keep taking <12 in bass until the number 8-12 equals number 12-15. Ideal pond structure is 40% 8-12, 40% 12-15 and 20% 15+
This assumes good fish condition. Another suggestion is take out all the fish in poor condition in all size groups. Note the size group that is stunted will have a much higher % of fish in poor condition. These are all correlated to the concept of RW mgt. Here are 3 archive links with a ton of info on the subject. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255372#Post255372http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255359 http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92492#Post92492
Last edited by ewest; 09/01/21 10:48 AM.
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FishinRod |
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Check the gape size of your HSB and see if the pellet is more than 30% of gape size. I use to cut LMB pellets in half to hand feed 12 in HSB. I would hand feed a few uncut pellets and see the results. If needed cut them in half. Hand Throw arrived yesterday. The HSB didn't show much interest in it, but it brought doom to the young BG/GAM/GSH who swam up for a nibble. I'll continue to offer the Hand Throw. In a week, if they still aren't eating it, I'll seal the bag and try it again next summer. They can eat BG pellets until the Bass pellets are back in stock. Water temps are still on the high side, so no sampling to measure gape until it cools off a bit.
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OP
Joined: Feb 2021
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So I'm up to 99 LMB removed since the Spring for a total of just shy of 30 lbs total. I've been logging each catch.
It's very homogenous. Here's the stat:
Length (inches) Average: 8.7 Median: 9.0 StdDev: 1.5
Smallest was 6" and the largest was 14" There have been only two bass caught bigger 12" or larger. Almost all bass have been below 100% RW Update on progress: I've now reached 128 LMB removed since the Spring totaling 26.1 lbs. This is almost exactly 40lbs per acre as recommended by esshup. I'm seeing more RWs at 100% but not a majority. On the flip size, the 150 BG I stocked in the Spring (no previous BG population) are monsters. I've measured a few and they are all in the 130% RW or higher. YOY BG are also visible along the bank around the entire pond. Hopefully they will continue to grow and provide some good eating!
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jpsdad |
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Update us in the spring once the LMB have had a chance to fatten on the fall crop of BG YOY. You should see more breeching 100 RW at that time.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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Update us in the spring once the LMB have had a chance to fatten on the fall crop of BG YOY. You should see more breeching 100 RW at that time. Yes but keep in mind the big drop in RW for LMB that accompanies spawning. Use pre spawn RW to compare. Or you can adjust by factoring in a 25-30% RW loss due to the spawn.
Last edited by ewest; 11/03/21 11:45 AM.
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OP
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Good advice. I suspect my fishing of the pond will slow considerably over the winter months but should get a sample now and then before the Spring.
I intend to keep tge feeder running through the winter. A Richmond Virginia winter doesnt get that cold and water temps will likley stay north of 45 degrees. Planning on 1s once a day.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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I've found my fish quit feeding on pellets at around 52 degrees water temps.
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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For LMB/BG when water temps get to 55 and dropping reduce feeding. Stop feeding when fish stop eating actively. This can changed from place to place based on local conditioning. When temps start rising in early spring start feeding slowly and increase with activity. Two very important times for feeding for fish health is in fall when temps are dropping but still 60-55 (improved condition going into winter) and when temps start to rise in early spring (improved condition for reproduction).
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FishinRod |
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OP
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Stopping at 55 degrees comes up often from different sources. I asked the question to the hatchery when I picked up my HSB and he stops at 55 degrees. The incremental fish growth/value versus waste/cost of pellets is not worth it.
I'll keep an eye on the temp. Currently just above 60.
On a related note, I have rarely seen any active surface feeding this spring through the summer. I've never seen the piranha frenzy shown in some videos so the feeding only what they can eat in 10 minutes is just a good theory. From other posts this lack of surface activity doesn't seem uncommon with fish in some ponds waiting for feed to sink.
Alternatively, the BG are finding plenty to eat elsewhere and my daily 1s feedings are just supplemental snacks. I’m inclined to this theory given the stocked BG are at the 130% RW. It will be interesting to see next Spring if having a more and larger BG puts enough pressure on the pond to create more demand for pellets.
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OP
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Checking back in after the Winter break. Water temps approaching 60 but not quite there yet. Bluegill that were stocked last Fall are huge and aggresive. The sample I caught had a median length of 8 inches and a median of 125% RW. They are literally bigger by weight then the LMB in the pond. I've only caught two LMB so far this Spring compared the 2 dozen plus BG. Both LMB were below 100% RW and culled.
I'll continue to cull the LMB below 100% RW (after post spawn) and may look at culling some of the bigger BG as the season progresses.
Like last year, I have the Texas feeder set to once a day at 1s. Based on the size of the BG it appears to be working.
I'm open to thoughts and opinions on nexts steps and timing on managing this 3/4 acre pond.
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The sample I caught had a median length of 8 inches and a median of 125% RW. They are literally bigger by weight then the LMB in the pond. This sounds like maybe the LMB didn't grow much. So a question I have would be how well did the BG recruit? If I recall correctly you did a harvest > 30 lbs LMB. So if there wasn't a lot of BG fry produced last year, I might allow the BG to pull off a couple of spawns which second spawn will probably occur in the June time frame. Judge the LMB RW in July. The condition where prey size is larger than predator is not uncommon. For those focusing on trophy sized BG, this is normal and encouraged. Where trophy sized BG are desired, one is reluctant to remove LMB and one certainly doesn't want to overharvest LMB. Its easier to manage for remarkable BG than to manage for remarkable LMB .... especially in a small pond of less than 1 acre. Like last year, I have the Texas feeder set to once a day at 1s. Based on the size of the BG it appears to be working. The feed is not required at all. Most of the growth was from pond organisms that serve as prey for the BG. There was no need to feed in a pond producing watermeal. It is fertile already, very eutrophic to produce large stands of watermeal. As long as you have a good population of LMB the BG will grow to remarkable sizes.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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Lunker
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Lunker
Joined: Nov 2007
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jpsdad, (and everyone else)
I have seen lots of discussions about supplying forage that is the correct size for LMB. However, I have not seen the equivalent discussion for large BG.
What do you think the large BG are utilizing for their forage diet in this pond (or in any trophy BG pond)?
I think all BG have tiny mouths, so I do not have a good grasp on how gape size changes their feeding habits as they get larger. Do 3-4" BG eat essentially the same diet (species AND size) as 8"+ BG?
We talk about LMB expending energy to catch their food. Is the diet of BG dumb, or do BG also expend significant energy to catch and consume their forage?
All of which is relevant to my final question. If a good fertile pond is producing trophy BG, would supplemental feeding be unlikely to increase the size of the trophy BG?
Even if all of your trophy BG are over 100% RW, would supplemental feeding increase the number of trophy BG or is that too dependent upon all of the other pond fishery variables?
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Nutria
by J. E. Craig - 12/03/24 04:10 PM
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Koi
by PAfarmPondPGH69, October 22
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