Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
udunnome, Michelle Glover, mulliganpondguy, djuhamman, PlugDepth
17,363 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics39,068
Posts530,433
Members17,363
Most Online3,583
Jan 15th, 2020
Top Posters
esshup 25,569
ewest 20,667
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 13,797
Who's Online Now
4 members (Theo Gallus, Shorty, RAH, RStringer), 178 guests, and 373 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4
C
OP Offline
C
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 4
Had a reputable hatchery stock my pond with 850 BG, 450 LMB, 350 RES, 250 HBG and some fat head minnows—we catching each species except bass—believe they made a legitimate mistake — but where can I buy some 8-16” LMB? Sad we aren’t catching any bass and small blue gills now running over the pond.

Thanks guys

Chris

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,569
Likes: 122
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,569
Likes: 122
Chris:

Where are you at in Indiana? Unfortunately, if you stock adult bass (14"-16") They might not acclimate to the pond and thrive. A customer that stocked adult feed trained bass from a supplier that I won't mention just had an electroshock survey done on his pond. The feed trained stocked adults are all under relative weight and the original LMB that are in the pond are all over relative weight - the stocked feed trained bass were all tagged to ID them.

Largemouth Bass are in really short supply this year, a grower lost over a million of them and bought up a lot of inventory from other fish suppliers. Small fingerlings will be available in September, Feb/March/maybe April 6" LMB might be available.

I know where to get adults that are feed trained, that weigh around 1.25# each, but unless you have an ongoing feed program in the pond they won't do well.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,667
Likes: 67
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,667
Likes: 67
Originally Posted by esshup
The feed trained stocked adults are all under relative weight and the original LMB that are in the pond are all over relative weight - the stocked feed trained bass were all tagged to ID them.

I know where to get adults that are feed trained, that weigh around 1.25# each, but unless you have an ongoing feed program in the pond they won't do well.

There is some new info that indicates that you can reverse this problem by training the feed trained LMB to eat prey fish for a short period of time.
















Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,569
Likes: 122
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,569
Likes: 122
Originally Posted by ewest
Originally Posted by esshup
The feed trained stocked adults are all under relative weight and the original LMB that are in the pond are all over relative weight - the stocked feed trained bass were all tagged to ID them.

I know where to get adults that are feed trained, that weigh around 1.25# each, but unless you have an ongoing feed program in the pond they won't do well.

There is some new info that indicates that you can reverse this problem by training the feed trained LMB to eat prey fish for a short period of time.


Got a link to show how that is done?


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,667
Likes: 67
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,667
Likes: 67
Article in PB mag - will find and post info.

Not the article but my notes and IIRC there is a later one as well

Survival of pellet raised vs. live prey fed stocker fish

For the last few years research has been ongoing to see if stocker fish raised on live prey or pellets and live prey survive better than those just fed pellets at the hatchery. A series of studies provided some of the answers. One of the studies titled Pellet-reared Largemouth Bass Competitive Ability at Various Levels of Exposure to Live Forage by Kyle T. Rachels, , Gordon R. Taylor, Brandon M. Baumhoer, Sagar Shrestha, ,Steve E. Lochmann, Aquaculture/Fisheries Center, University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff presented to Proc. Annu. Conf. Southeast. Assoc. Fish and Wildl. Agencies 66:16–19, 2012 is covered in this edition of the Cutting Edge. It and the second cited study contain some of the results from prior studies and in total give us some stocking guidance.
To set the stage one prior study found that poststocking survival of pellet reared largemouth bass to age 1 was 1.5–7.7 times less than that of minnow-reared largemouth bass during a five-year stocking program.

That finding led to this study which investigated the effects of exposing pellet-reared, advanced-fingerling largemouth bass to live forage to determine the ability of bass to capture live forage when stocked into waters with fish accustomed to eating wild forage. Wild and pellet-reared largemouth bass were paired in competitive trials and offered live fathead minnows. Prior to competitive trials, pellet-reared largemouth bass were placed into trial groups and fed fathead minnows.. Some of the results were as follows.

Pellet-reared largemouth bass without exposure to live forage captured the fathead minnow in
9% of competitive events against wild fish and captured significantly fewer fathead minnows than pellet-reared largemouth bass with exposure to live forage. Pellet-reared largemouth bass with exposure to live forage before competitions were similar to wild largemouth
bass in competitive ability. Results indicated pellet-reared largemouth bass with nine days of prestocking live forage exposure would have a similar ability to compete for food as wild largemouth bass. Providing pellet-reared largemouth bass with live forage for nine days before stocking may provide the benefits of both pellet and live-forage rearing.


The data revealed significant differences in competitive ability between wild and hatchery largemouth bass reared just on pellets. Wild fish captured the minnow in 10 of the 11 pairwise
comparisons. These results may help account for the high mortality observed in stocking programs conducted with pellet-reared largemouth bass. Even if pellet-reared fish are able to learn to identify natural forage items post-stocking, they may continue to be outcompeted
by wild fish. Individuals that lose a competition have a lower probability of winning future competitions than individuals that have established dominance or individuals without previous
competition experience. One previous study found individuals that lost initial competitions grew less over 8 months than the individuals that won competitions. They also found relative dominance was stable over long periods, with initial competition winners maintaining dominance over losers after 8 months. If food is limiting and pellet-reared largemouth bass are poor
competitors, as demonstrated in this study, they might contribute little to the population in which they are stocked. By learning prey recognition before being introduced into an
unfamiliar environment, hatchery-reared fish became proficient foragers. The results of this study agreed with previous studies as hatchery-reared fish with minnow exposure performed better than fish reared only on pellets, and similar to wild fish. This study’s result suggested that prestocking exposure to live forage may not have to exceed nine days for hatchery-reared fish to have equivalent abilities to compete for food at the time of stocking.

Supplemental stocking programs are a management tool commonly used for the enhancement of largemouth bass populations. Goals of such stocking programs include improving year-class strength, increasing angler harvest and, or influencing genetic composition.
Although largemouth bass stocking programs often utilize fingerling (~50 mm) fish, stocking larger sizes can improve the likelihood of stocking success. Propagating largemouth bass to advanced sizes (e.g., ≥75 mm) can be relatively inefficient. Advanced-fingerling largemouth bass are commonly reared on commercially available feed to increase yield and reduce hatchery expense. Pellet-reared largemouth bass fed minnows for 14 days prior to stocking had similar survival to fish reared exclusively on minnows. One study compared survival and diet composition between wild and pellet-reared largemouth bass that were fed eastern mosquitofish for five days prior to stocking. Stocked fish had higher incidence of empty stomachs at seven days poststocking than wild fish, but mortality was similar between wild and stocked fish after 90 days poststocking. Providing live forage to pellet-reared largemouth bass prior
to stocking may produce hatchery-reared fish that are functionally similar to wild counterparts. .

Experiments of this type have obvious limitations. Sample size and the use of artificial tanks as well as other stress factors could account for some of the differences. Competition for food resources can be a factor affecting poststocking mortality, but other factors including biotic interactions warrant consideration. Conditioning hatchery-reared fish to structurally complex habitat and predators should also improve overall competitive ability. It would be wise to know what your hatchery is feeding the fish you will be stocking. The best approach would be for stocker fish to be in a pond with wild forage and pellets for some time prior to stocking for best results. The results from this study demonstrate that exposure to live forage early (pre stocking) increases competitive ability and survival of those subsequently stocked largemouth bass.

Last edited by ewest; 06/23/21 11:06 AM.















Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,194
Likes: 91
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,194
Likes: 91
The idea that pellet raised advanced fingerlings can be "trained" to eat live forage may hold promise for otherwise useless fish (unless fed). I still wonder to what extent they may remain handicapped by the initial period of feed dependence.

Forage fed LMB standing weights >400 lbs are all but absent from the literature. Where weights approaching this standing weight have been achieved with forage, it has been through the use of forage that gets a head start and then disappears by the end of grow out. So in situ production of prey seems to be associated with LMB production <400 lbs/acre. This starkly contrasts with the production achieved in aerated fed pond where production can exceed 3000 lbs/acre. Sad thing is, these sorry fish at 8 inches are sold for .50 cents to a food producer or for 8 to 10 dollars to a pond owner. It is rather ridiculous because as you mentioned above they are not going to work for the pond owner as he imagines they will. If they did ... it would be cheap ... but they don't tend to work at all unless they are fed.

People just don't understand the value of forage raised advanced fingerlings. DOWs do because it is expensive and they've been doing it for years long before these studies simply because they suspected (correctly) that fish fed formulated feeds are ill suited to thrive in natural waters. Esshup, do you have any customers willing to pay 60 dollars or more for forage raised 10" fingerlings/subadults? I would venture a guess that few of your customers would understand the cost and value sufficiently to bite that bullet. Forage raised fish are worth the same return on acreage as are fish fed formulated feeds. This isn't because the acreage must return as much ... its because these fish can succeed where the others are doomed to fail. To have successful results is priceless ... to have forgone unsuccessful results is just burning money no matter how cheap.


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


1 member likes this: DannyMac
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,569
Likes: 122
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,569
Likes: 122
jpsdad, no, about half that price and tying up the resources to raise the LMB that way would cut out other fish. Sort of like trying to find albino catfish now. Many people want them, but they only want a few where people want a lot of normal colored ones. So many fish suppliers stopped raising the albino's.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,194
Likes: 91
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,194
Likes: 91
Not sure if the comparison is valid. The forage fed LMB isn't a novelty like an albino CC is. It's the "real McCoy" that will perform as optimally as supplement fish can within the limitations of the water. It is true that the demand for sub-adults isn't that large for recreational use and that will probably always be the case.

I don't think I understood what you meant by half that price. That 8" fed LMB are 4 to 5 dollars, that forage fed 10" LMB are $30, or that pond owners are willing to pay around $30 for such a fish. I would sure like to find a producer in TX who raises forage fed LMB at 10" for sale at $30 a head. To pay that, however, I would have to trust there isn't any feed going into growing them. I wouldn't pay that fed fish that had a little forage tossed in.


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,667
Likes: 67
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,667
Likes: 67
Many hatchery LMB are feed trained at yoy stage. Then the question is how to proceed from there. Some are raised on feed , some are placed into forage ponds for growout and some are put in forage growout ponds with feeding continued. Some are born and raised in a growout pond and not feed trained - but the economics and ability to control genetics are questionable.
















Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,569
Likes: 122
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,569
Likes: 122
The problem with raising LMB is the intense hands on grading that has to be done. One grower in Arkansas has to grade them weekly to remove "shooters".

jpsdad, different market between here and Texas.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,194
Likes: 91
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,194
Likes: 91
Originally Posted by esshup
The problem with raising LMB is the intense hands on grading that has to be done. One grower in Arkansas has to grade them weekly to remove "shooters".

smile you must mean when feed training. Yeah some LMB fingerlings won't sit still for daily feed rations smile They'll eat their siblings and cousins! They do the same while waiting to be sold in holding tanks.

Quote
jpsdad, different market between here and Texas

As far as I know, there isn't a market for forage fed sub-adult fish down here. I'm not sure I could buy them at any price. I think I'll have to make arrangements to grow them myself from 2" fingerlings if I am to have them. I think I could supply my needs for a 6 acre impoundment with a 1/20 to 1/10 acre forage pond. I think I would want to have two support ponds below the main bow. One for forage and the other for "shooters" annually or biannually.

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/24/21 04:32 PM.

Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 209
Likes: 9
D
Offline
D
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 209
Likes: 9
I was told by the fish farmer, down in Pearsall, that the fingerling bass I was buying had to be feed trained in order to show on testing they were not stolen from public waters. I put four fingerlings in a thousand gallon koi pond...they cleaned out the gambusia as they grew...and they ate pellets. They now take 3/4" bass throw pellets...they're gone when they hit the water. But now, after reading all the above, it seems I much catch small bluegills from the big pond to throw in the koi pond to get these bass re-conditioned before I move them.


Dan McWhirter
DannyMac
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,569
Likes: 122
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,569
Likes: 122
Originally Posted by jpsdad
[quote=esshup]The problem with raising LMB is the intense hands on grading that has to be done. One grower in Arkansas has to grade them weekly to remove "shooters".

smile you must mean when feed training. Yeah some LMB fingerlings won't sit still for daily feed rations smile They'll eat their siblings and cousins! They do the same while waiting to be sold in holding tanks.

[quote]

I had 6 LMB fingerlings eat their brothers and sisters while in a cardboard box being shipped overnight to another state. The guy only received 96 LMB when I shipped 102. I told him to look hard at the fish to see if he could see any tails sticking out of their mouths. He called back, yep, the other 6 fish were there, just not swimming around by themselves. LOL


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 887
Likes: 3
B
Offline
B
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 887
Likes: 3
450 bass and 250 HSB to only 850 BG is a really low ratio of predator to prey. How big is your body of water? I think I was advised to stock at 35:1. Was it a newly built pond?

Last edited by BrianL; 06/25/21 09:36 AM.

1.8 acre pond with CNBG, RES, HSB, and LMB
Trophy Hunter feeder.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 14,998
Likes: 45
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 14,998
Likes: 45
Danny Mac, I personally think that fish farmer is full of BS.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 209
Likes: 9
D
Offline
D
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 209
Likes: 9
Yeah Dave, it occurs to me it would be a real pain to raise bass for sale based on live forage only. Feed has to be the answer to a consistent product.


Dan McWhirter
DannyMac
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 14,998
Likes: 45
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 14,998
Likes: 45
Heck, these things even eat each other. I’ve watched that. That’s Mama Nature at work. Even if they are feed trained, they will still forage on smaller fish.

Bottom line? No such law. Don’t deal with that guy.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,194
Likes: 91
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,194
Likes: 91
Originally Posted by DannyMac
Yeah Dave, it occurs to me it would be a real pain to raise bass for sale based on live forage only. Feed has to be the answer to a consistent product.

I have to wonder how much of a pain it is. DOWs having been doing it for years. It's not more difficult ... usually ... all the food grows in situ and fertilization is performed at monthly or similar intervals to maintain bloom. Survival rates at appropriately stocked quantities are similar to feed regimens and so it is just a different recipe.

Its a very low production technique that is generally less than 200 lbs/acre production compared to the feedlot approach which is generally > 2000 lbs acre under aeration and appropriate stocking numbers. Its about maximizing ROI and having a product they can keep over extended periods of time (fish that are less inclined to eat each other) and be maintained with formulated feed. If the recreational market demanded forage raised fish (like DOWs do) then it would have to pay the costs (like DOWs do with licensing funds). If the demand were there, some fisheries suppliers "might" do it. Not all fisheries suppliers even culture fingerlings or maintain a selection program.

For every fish that is produced as food there are markets around stage I fingerlings, stage II fingerlings, and adults. Stage I are usually 1" to 3" fish, stage II are 4" up to 10" fish, and the adults are usually of age 1.5 or older. Some fisheries suppliers purchase feed trained stage 1 fingerlings and grow them out to 6 to 8". This is easier than maintaining brood stock and a selection program. Those that do this probably also purchase the 2" fingerlings for sale direct to the public.

Feed is a tool that helps producers maximize yield and assists with the maintenance of stock over extended periods where the demand is spread over time. Forage fed fish would have to be harvested and then disbursed to their new homes over a very short period of time or the potential for loss would be great even if the market priced the production/acre at similar levels. The first thing that would have to give is some portion of the recreational market, they would first have to value the forage fed product, be willing to commit to purchase in advance of production, and then take and utilize the product when the harvest dictated. It's economics, convenience, knowledge, and the perception of value. The market for the feed trained stages already exist in the food markets at prices that are a very small fraction of retail prices at a fisheries supplier. The recreational user is paying for the storage, maintenance, mortality, service, convenience, and delivery/packaging. That of course has value but feed trained fish play into this operationally where forage fed ... not so much.


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers



Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Darryl McClain, Michael
Recent Posts
Help me design a sheepsfoot roller please!
by RAH - 08/05/21 05:24 AM
Blue Catfish supplier for Indiana
by RAH - 08/05/21 05:16 AM
Thoughts on BG vs BCP in LMB pond
by Steve_ - 08/04/21 07:28 PM
Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking
by Heppy - 08/04/21 06:15 PM
2.5 Acre Pond Gone! work/restroation thread
by Stressless - 08/04/21 06:01 PM
I finally got my small pond! It's just kinda big!!
by Pat Williamson - 08/04/21 04:58 PM
Guidance for my pond? (0.6 acres, southeast MI)
by Quarter Acre - 08/04/21 01:26 PM
strains of Largmouth Bass
by ewest - 08/04/21 12:31 PM
Tilapia Cleaning
by roymunson - 08/04/21 09:39 AM
0.51 acre pond in Texas with lots vegetation / few
by highflyer - 08/04/21 07:02 AM
Feed trial experiment
by jpsdad - 08/03/21 11:54 PM
Alligator in pond
by CityDad - 08/03/21 09:42 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
pond
pond
by Stressless, August 3
A few SMB
A few SMB
by Shorty, July 28
Catfish ID - Channel or Flathead?
Neighbors Pond with RES
Neighbors Pond with RES
by Shorty, July 17
Fish ID
Fish ID
by airborne3118, July 12
Algae?
Algae?
by OhioJon, July 7

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5