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Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #535952 06/01/21 05:46 PM
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Mark is the guy, MANY years ago, who told me about the chicken feathers . High protein but not digestible for fish. I soon after talked to the Owner of a company who was producing high protein fish feed from feathers. They were selling quite a bit of it in North Texas. He said they had been getting amazing growth from their fish in their test pond. I asked how it was possible since it all went through their gut due to not being digestible. He walked away and left.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #535954 06/01/21 05:53 PM
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Feathers and weight gain just don't fly.


8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17,L, 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 25 HSB & 250 F1 9/20,L,180# RBT 12/20, 206, 7k TFS,100#TP 5/21, 225



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Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #535956 06/01/21 06:04 PM
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I truly appreciate all of the info but you have exceeded my pay grade - my very long term experience with deer protein feed tells me that most all of the name brand deer protein is good stuff - end of the day very little difference for the end results when it come to deer protein. I would assume there is some similarity between deer protein and fish protein?

I refer back to my earlier comments - if BG will dive to the bottom to eat the pellets off of the bottom (which is concerning since once the pellets hit "bottom" they are most likely lost in the muck and weeds) then I am good with Optimal - however if literally half of my Optimal pellets are sinking and not to be eaten then I have a problem with that waste . The Sportsman (and the Purina I have used) all floats and gets hammered quickly. Just what I have personally observed

Simply put I have a 2 acre pond that I want my bass and BG to be healthy - end of the day if there are minor differences in make up the feed then I simply do not care - on the other hand if somebody can convince me that there would be a 20-30% difference in my bait fish and bass then I will listen

Re: Native bass eating protein??
Dave Davidson1 #535969 06/02/21 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Davidson1
Mark is the guy, MANY years ago, who told me about the chicken feathers . High protein but not digestible for fish. I soon after talked to the Owner of a company who was producing high protein fish feed from feathers. They were selling quite a bit of it in North Texas. He said they had been getting amazing growth from their fish in their test pond. I asked how it was possible since it all went through their gut due to not being digestible. He walked away and left.


Reminds me of that young man who was pursuing a career in aeration via fountains at one of the last PB conferences. You crushed his dreams and left myself and Allen Hall/FireIsHot to comfort the young man off the proverbial ledge. Brutal.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #535972 06/02/21 07:33 AM
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I hand feed Optimal, so I'm able to closely observe what the fish are reacting to the pellets.

If the behavior in my pond is even slightly typical, I'd say you have little to worry about in terms of pellets making it to the bottom of the pond.

BG will readily take a pellet as it sinks, RES prefer a sinking pellet, and will pick them up off the bottom with gusto.

Assuming that you are throwing a reasonable amount, into water with a bit of depth, it's not likely that many pellets are being wasted.

Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #535974 06/02/21 07:42 AM
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To add to Augie's comment, any feed that does not float will probably will not physically sink into the bottom muck early on before it gets eaten.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #535975 06/02/21 07:45 AM
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feather and wait gain just dont fly

Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #535976 06/02/21 09:20 AM
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I think there is a spectrum of fish food application. On one end is a aquaculture farm where fish rely 100% on artificial meals. On the other end are fish who fend for themselves. Many PB ponds are in between.

Many of us here work to maintain a diverse and healthy food chain in the pond. We feed to:

1) Enjoy watching the fish eat.
2) Keep the RWs up.
3) Ease the overall load on the food chain.

Personally I'm very happy with the results I get from the Tractor Supply stuff. Bass and Bluegill both love it and look great. After switching from three years of MVP I don't see any difference in the pond, but I do in my wallet.

Someone who has different goals probably would see a difference. Particularly if their fish are relying on the feed for a significant portion of their diet.


4 acre pond 32 ft deep within East Texas (Livingston) timber ranch. Filled (to the top of an almost finished dam) by Hurricane Harvey 9/17. Stocked with FHM, CNBG, RES 10/17. Added 35lbs RSC 3/18. 400 N LMB fingerlings 6/18
Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #535977 06/02/21 09:48 AM
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T here is your request via Pond Boss Mag. Guys if you don't get the Mag please subscribe.

T I have not heard that this product is available for pond owners. I would like to know if anyone has seen it out there.


POND BOSS MAGAZINE

The Cutting Edge - Science Review

Fish Food Update
By Eric West


Fish growth often is limited by food availability and supplemental feeding is a logical tool to improve the condition of fish in small impoundments. The question then becomes many times more complicated because the immense variety of cultured fish species hampers efforts to simplify production of feed (pellets) industry wide. Over 170 types of fish are currently cultured, including carnivores like Bass, Trout and Hybrid Striped Bass, herbivores such as Tilapia, planktivores including Shad, and omnivores one being Catfish, each having its own set of nutritional demands
Fish food must be designed to meet the nutritional requirements of the applicable species and must be manufactured into pellets that the fish will readily accept and utilize efficiently. Several factors can affect the ability of fish to find , eat and utilize a food pellet including physical characteristics such as pellet density (floating, sinking, sinking rate), size (shape, diameter, and length), color (contrast), texture (hardness) and smell (taste) . For example as a strict carnivore, Largemouth Bass have been found to be negatively impacted by carbohydrate levels of 20% or more. Other studies showed the several magnitude increase in efficiency and growth when Bluegill are provided adequate food through supplemental feeding. The more we look the more evident it becomes that fish food requirements are species dependent. Bass are carnivores, bluegill, while related, have both carnivore and omnivore traits, as do catfish a true omnivore, while grass carp and tilapia are herbivories. We all know that wolves, bears, humans and sheep each have different food requirements. So it’s no surprise that different fish species do also.

In brief, an overview reveals that fish meal (from limited supplies of herring type fishes) has historically been the preferred protein source (gold standard) used in many fish food diets, but high costs and environmental/availability concerns are serious issues for a growing aquaculture industry. With the fast growing demand in fish consumption (for many years at twice the rate of population growth) there has been unsustainable demand on wild fish stocks and a compelling need to develop an alternative to fishmeal from wild fish stocks. A number of recent studies have addressed alternative sources of proteins from animals and plants. Plant based products contain anti-nutritional factors which have greatly limited them as a viable option. Some of the studies are reported and others are proprietary. Dietary protein, lipids and carbohydrates (if needed) must be kept in proper balance because a deficiency or excess of any one can cause issues. Fish fed diets deficient in lipids will metabolize more expensive dietary protein (or muscle) to meet energy requirements. Most pond fish, other than herbivores, do not require carbohydrates in their diet, as complex carbohydrates cannot be digested and utilized efficiently by most of these species. For this reason, diets fed to carnivores and most pond species rarely contain more than 20% complex carbohydrate. The exception among predator fish is Hybrid Striped Bass which can digest carbs and can become obese on standard fish foods. Conversely, warmwater omnivores or herbivores (e.g., channel catfish, tilapia, common carp, and white sturgeon) adapt well to diets containing as much as 40% dietary carbohydrate. Further although vitamins and minerals are required in minute amounts compared with protein, lipid, and so forth, they are critically important, as every micronutrient has a deficiency disease associated with it, the effects of which are sometimes irreversible or fatal. For a few vitamins and most minerals, excess can be equally detrimental, resulting in toxicity.

Some older studies reported that plant proteins are often associated with nutritional deficiencies due to incomplete amino acid profiles, reduced palatability, and various anti-nutritional factors. While others reported that, when plant and animal protein sources are properly combined to produce complementary amino acid profiles, growth and survival can significantly increase.

It was recently reported that one leading University in collaboration with others developed a proprietary soybean-based, high performance protein ingredient for fish food that is both economical and sustainable. The process involves using a food grade microbe to greatly reduce the anti-nutritional factors that have long hindered the use of plant based proteins in fish food. The process produces a product that is 70% protein which is more digestible (near 100% vs 80% for standard fish meal) and can be formulated to meet various amino acid, vitamin and mineral requirements. Tests were conducted on multiple species for palatability, digestibility and conversion efficiency and found to exceed marine fish meal. The product has been tested in other university research facilities and numerous commercial aquaculture sites yielding outstanding results in marine and freshwater fish species and shellfish. The product ME-PRO is now in commercial production and used all over the world. Look for its use in your favorite fish foods.

That is some cutting edge science that should help pond enthusiasts.
















Re: Native bass eating protein??
ewest #535979 06/02/21 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ewest
T I have not heard that this product is available for pond owners. I would like to know if anyone has seen it out there.
I heard about this research back in 2017 at the Ohio Aquaculture Conference. The presenters were pretty sketchy with the details of their process; IIRC they were waiting on a patent application.

I kind of expected to see it out by now.


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Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #535980 06/02/21 09:59 AM
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It is patented and produced and sold but to my knowledge no pond fish food manufactures are using it that I know of.
















Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #535983 06/02/21 10:27 AM
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Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #535991 06/02/21 07:29 PM
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Frankly, if we're talking $ spent per lb of fish growth, I suspect the Tractor Supply feed wins. Now if we're talking longevity & health of the fish, plus maybe overfertilization issues of the pond, the winner would likely differ.

No one "right" answer. Very much depends on goals, budget.


8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17,L, 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 25 HSB & 250 F1 9/20,L,180# RBT 12/20, 206, 7k TFS,100#TP 5/21, 225



Re: Native bass eating protein??
anthropic #535996 06/02/21 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by anthropic
Frankly, if we're talking $ spent per lb of fish growth, I suspect the Tractor Supply feed wins. Now if we're talking longevity & health of the fish, plus maybe overfertilization issues of the pond, the winner would likely differ.

No one "right" answer. Very much depends on goals, budget.


Nope!! I did a test a number of years back using Tractor Supply Sportmans Choice food. The amount of food that was needed was astounding. I was feeding Sportsmans Choice food to Hybrid Bluegills (not the catfish food) and feeding 120# of food still didn't get the fish weight that 40# of Optimal did.

Last edited by esshup; 06/02/21 10:28 PM. Reason: typo

www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #536034 06/03/21 05:38 PM
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so is the Purina brand fish food on the equivalent to the Optimal?

Re: Native bass eating protein??
Sunil #536035 06/03/21 05:43 PM
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With all due respect I disagree - my feeder is elevated so when I stand up high while tossing feed out I can see my fish and the bottom - with Optimal a good percentage goes to the bottom - I have a healthy number of BG and bass - (no catfish) - so my question remains - once a pellet hits the bottom will BG go down and get it out of the muck?

Re: Native bass eating protein??
Sunil #536036 06/03/21 05:44 PM
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With all due respect I disagree - my feeder is elevated so when I stand up high while tossing feed out I can see my fish and the bottom - with Optimal a good percentage goes to the bottom - I have a healthy number of BG and bass - (no catfish) - so my question remains - once a pellet hits the bottom will BG go down and get it out of the muck?
Originally Posted by Sunil
To add to Augie's comment, any feed that does not float will probably will not physically sink into the bottom muck early on before it gets eaten.

see my post above - I failed to attach to your post

Re: Native bass eating protein??
esshup #536037 06/03/21 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by esshup
Originally Posted by anthropic
Frankly, if we're talking $ spent per lb of fish growth, I suspect the Tractor Supply feed wins. Now if we're talking longevity & health of the fish, plus maybe overfertilization issues of the pond, the winner would likely differ.

No one "right" answer. Very much depends on goals, budget.


Nope!! I did a test a number of years back using Tractor Supply Sportmans Choice food. The amount of food that was needed was astounding. I was feeding Sportsmans Choice food to Hybrid Bluegills (not the catfish food) and feeding 120# of food still didn't get the fish weight that 40# of Optimal did.

Wow. I expected significant improvement in results per pound of feed, but not triple.


8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17,L, 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 25 HSB & 250 F1 9/20,L,180# RBT 12/20, 206, 7k TFS,100#TP 5/21, 225



Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #536039 06/03/21 06:38 PM
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Tim, do you have redear sunfish as well as bluegill? Redear seem more bottom oriented


8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17,L, 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 25 HSB & 250 F1 9/20,L,180# RBT 12/20, 206, 7k TFS,100#TP 5/21, 225



Re: Native bass eating protein??
anthropic #536045 06/03/21 08:28 PM
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mostly BG but a few Redear - no worries I just love a good debate! My pond and fish are doing great- think I will keep doing what I have been doing!

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Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #536046 06/03/21 09:05 PM
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anthropic, I was surprised as well.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #536058 06/04/21 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by tim k
With all due respect I disagree - my feeder is elevated so when I stand up high while tossing feed out I can see my fish and the bottom - with Optimal a good percentage goes to the bottom - I have a healthy number of BG and bass - (no catfish) - so my question remains - once a pellet hits the bottom will BG go down and get it out of the muck?
Originally Posted by Sunil
To add to Augie's comment, any feed that does not float will probably will not physically sink into the bottom muck early on before it gets eaten.

see my post above - I failed to attach to your post


Yes, bluegill will eat off the bottom. However, they may go after that 'low lying fruit' after they hit the feed that's floating or suspended.

At the end of the day, my thoughts are to feed whatever you want if it makes you happy.

These days, I go with Optimal solely because I order it from hoosierpondpros.com (esshup's company) and it arrives at my door. I use three sizes, and the smaller "Grower" pellets do have more of them that sink quicker than the other sizes.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #536063 06/04/21 10:57 AM
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Both Purina and Optimal are good foods and there are others. IMO much better than TS brand. Depends on goals and pond as to application. Some food is better than no food in most ponds situations.
















Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #536589 06/16/21 01:37 PM
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I was using tractor supply sportsman's choice for many years. I had BG and CC that would readily eat it, but not with the intensity they do now. I'm now using purina aquamax mvp. I have yet to see a single pellet make it to the bottom before a bluegill darts in and scarfs it up. The feeder is now set for 6 times a day at 6-8 seconds. All feed is consumed in under 10 minutes sometimes under 2-3 minutes. I recently noticed a lmb around 14-16 inches hammering the pellets too. I thought that was pretty cool since none of my fish are feed trained. First time in 15 years I have seen a LMB eating pellets in my pond.The feeder is a cheap moultrie directional feeder, but it's doing its job pretty well for now.


3 acre pond NE KS Pond Boss subscriber
Re: Native bass eating protein??
tim k #536598 06/16/21 07:30 PM
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Yep, I've seen on average about 10% (that's a WAG) of the native non-feed trained bass start to eat pellets in ponds.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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