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Adding the picture is easy once it's on Imgur.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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Esshup care to elaborate on how you do it?

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Originally Posted by Heppy
Esshup care to elaborate on how you do it?

I do everything from a desktop, so if you are doing it on a phone or tablet, I have no clue.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

O.K. Here's how I did it for your pictures in imgur.

I clicked on your link. That opened the picture. Right click on the picture then click on "copy image link".

Then come to the forum, click on "use full editor" in a reply. Go to right above the text box for the reply and hover over the thing that looks like a framed picture. Left click that, then paste in the image link that you copied from Imgur. Click on OK and you are done.

If you are logged into your imgur account, go to your pictures and click on the pencil in the upper right corner. left click on "get share links". Copy the BBCode one. just paste it in the post and you are done. No need to go to the "use full editor".
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Esshup,
Thanks! I’m using an iPhone and can only dream that HSB came from my links in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Heppy
Esshup,
Thanks! I’m using an iPhone and can only dream that HSB came from my links in this thread.


Maybe someone that has an iPhone can help. I know Fireishot has one.

That's a 4 yr old HSB from my pond, I feed a mixture of Optimal BLuegill and Bass food, 40#-60#/month depending on how they are eating. I know I am not feeding as much as they will eat.


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Set 2 spawning devices for Satinfin shiners at my sons friend boat dock early this afternoon. We also set 2 minnow traps and used a cast net to try and catch the adults. Only 2 were caught in the cast net and none in the minnow traps baited with bread and dog food as of 9pm. The mesh size of the 6 foot cast net is 3/8 of an inch. This mesh size is too large for my objective. I will be trying 3/16 mesh if I’m able to locate one before we go back on Thursday or Friday evening. In my correspondence with Bill Cody he said “ If you are seeing school of them around the dock the spawning device should be full of eggs after 2-3 days and haul the egg filled device home to the pond for egg hatch in 5-7 days. Replace each egg filled device at the docks with another 1 or 2 devices and keep the cycle going all summer.” It appears that I will need to build more spawning devices in the near future. A couple of questions that I hope someone can answer.
1. Would the Satinfin shiner eggs/fry be better off in the forage pond with golden shiners, FHM, mountain redbelly dace, rosyside dace and creek chubs or in the stream that feeds the creek above the pond without golden shiners? I ask this because as I understand it the golden shiners are notorious egg eaters.
2. Does anyone know the preferred bait of Spotfin/Satinfin shiners in a minnow trap?
3. What is the recommended mesh size used for these 3 inch shiners and where do I find one?
Thanks!

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Questions.
1. Would the Satinfin shiner eggs/fry be better off in the forage pond with golden shiners, FHM, mountain redbelly dace, rosyside dace and creek chubs or in the stream that feeds the creek above the pond without golden shiners? I ask this because as I understand it the golden shiners are notorious egg eaters. GS WILL NOT EAT VERY MANY OF THE SATINFIN EGGS BECAUSE THE EGGS ARE DEPOSITED INTO THE CREVICES AWAY FROM EXPOSURE TO THE GS. GS AND OTHER FISH WILL EAT THE NEW FRY OF ALL FISH.
2. Does anyone know the preferred bait of Spotfin/Satinfin shiners in a minnow trap? GOOD QUESTION . TRY FISH FOOD.
3. What is the recommended mesh size used for these 3 inch shiners and where do I find one? 1/4" . IMO A CAST NET WILL NOT CATCH VERY MANY SATINFIN NOR SPOTFIN BECAUSE THESE SHINERS SWIM TOO FAST AND WILL ESCAPE THE NET BEHAVIOR.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/16/21 03:14 PM.

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Thank you Bill! I thought the information you previously shared with me would be helpful for myself and others in the future who decide to stock their own pond with Satinfin/Spotfin shiners. Your knowledge is vast and I hope to capture just some of it in this thread. From what I have observed thus far I’m guessing a 6 to 8 foot (12-16 ‘ diameter) cast net with 1/4 inch mesh and 1-1.5 lbs per foot will give me the best shot at capturing the adults if Optimal Bass doesn’t do so in the traps. The egg filled spawning devices will go in the forage pond. I really appreciate you taking the time to guide me along through this process.

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This probably a really bad idea. But could a small spawning structure be placed in the source and transferred to a forage grow out after eggs are deposited?


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Originally Posted by jpsdad
This probably a really bad idea. But could a small spawning structure be placed in the source and transferred to a forage grow out after eggs are deposited?

jpsdad,
Your “really bad idea” is exactly what Bill Cody has me doing so I think you can rest assured that it is a great idea. I’m also trying to trap and cast net adults. My oldest son and I are going to check the spawning devices, minnow traps and throw the cast net tomorrow evening.

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This evening we checked the traps with dog food and bread in them and there was nothing left in either trap. One trap is on the bottom and the other is suspended about 2 feet below the surface. We put Optimal bass in both traps and will check again this weekend. The spawning devices were originally hanging off the dock submerged between 12 and 16 inches. Both came up without any eggs that I could visibly see. I moved the spawning devices where one is 2-3 inches off the bottom in about 3 to 4 feet of water. The other spawning device is about a foot from the surface in 2-3 feet of water. We will check these again this weekend. I did some experimenting with the 2 Satinfin shiners caught 2 days ago. A fully charged deep cycle battery has been running on the double bubbler in the white 120 quart igloo cooler with 2 holes drilled for the air lines and 1 tablespoon of finer shiner 24 hours a day. Today I added enough water to reach 3/4 full in the cooler with an additional tablespoon of finer shiner. This evening I managed to find a 7 foot 1/4 inch mesh cast net to use and the results were nothing short of miraculous. Every Satinfin shiner on the surface thrown on within one foot of the edge of the open net was caught! However, only 6 of the 8 we threw the cast net on met that criteria. The 6 adults caught tonight along with the 2 caught Tuesday will be going in the forage pond tomorrow. They are doing great in my transport cooler. Slowly but surely I am getting where I am going while making adjustments in having Satinfin shiners in my pond.

This article is why the one spawning device is 2-3 inches from the bottom.
http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/cek7/nyfish/Cyprinidae/satinfin_shiner.html

Last edited by Heppy; 06/18/21 12:58 AM. Reason: Source
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Successfully transferred 4 of the Satinfin shiners to the forage pond and 4 to the main stream that feeds the big pond. I figured out that my 12 volt deep cycle battery ran from Tuesday evening until 6:00 tonight and all shiners survived the transport. In other words 24/7 for 3 days in a row of battery life. I was surprised that the Satinfin shiners from Tuesday evening were able to thrive with only the double bubbler and finer shiner added for 72 hours. The water temperature of the cooler was 83 degrees. This gives me confidence going forward with the transportation of these adult fish.

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Quote
[/quote][quote] "moved the spawning devices where one is 2-3 inches off the bottom in about 3 to 4 feet of water. The other spawning device is about a foot from the surface in 2-3 feet of water."

I predict the spawning device in 1ft of water will gather more eggs than the device close to the bottom in 3-4ft of water. This is what works well for spotfins so we will see if the behavior holds true for the satinfin shiner.

Quote
This article is why the one spawning device is 2-3 inches from the bottom.
http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/cek7/nyfish/Cyprinidae/satinfin_shiner.html
Note in the referenced study the water in the pool was only 6" to 7.5" deep (150mm-200mm); so there was not much water depth above the spawning device even though it was placed a couple inches from the bottom.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/18/21 09:30 PM.

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Bill, I wanted to get the spawning devices even closer to to the shoreline by the dock but I didn’t have a hammer and nail with me. I saw in the referenced article the 6-7.5 inch deep pool and just experimented with the deeper water in the lake. The lake has 500 miles of shoreline and I feel fortunate to even locate them after searching for over a year. The depth of the pool referenced in the article is why 4 of the Satinfin shiners were put into the small stream that feeds the big pond. I’m going to put one of the spawning devices in the pool where I stocked the 4 Satinfin shiners to mimic those conditions in the article. In the little experience with these fish I have found:
1. The water temperature in the cooler stays at 83 degrees with my setup in the transport cooler even though the outside temperatures have been in the 90’s. It’s a white 120 quart cooler with only 2 holes drilled in the top for the air lines and a tablespoon of finer shiner. I should also note that my Tacoma has a black tonneau cover closed.
2. The deep cycle battery has a minimum life of 72 hours running 24/7 with the double bubbler.
3. The adult Satinfin shiner seems to be a hardy fish that tolerates transport well over an extended period of time.
4. A 1/4 inch mesh 6-8 foot cast net is a must have in capturing these super evasive shiner when seen on the surface.
I will update when I have more information to share.

Last edited by Heppy; 06/19/21 10:44 AM.
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I was curious about the difference(s) between spotfin shiner and satinfin shiner. It sounds like except for minor variation in the number of rays in the anal fin and color changes at the time of spawning, they are almost the same creature.

I found this and thought it interesting reading about these cool shiners. Heppy, if you save some for an aquarium, they should be in spawning colors soon (mid June if I recall right once temps are right in the waters)

===============================

Fishes Of The Lower Susquehanna And Northern Chesapeake Tributaries, Part IV (Minnows)
By William Estes and Bruce Gebhardt
reprinted from American Currents, March-June 1988
Earlier Installments of this series appeared in the Oct 86, Mar-Apr 87, and Jan 88 issues.



Satinfin Shiner (Notropis analostanus) and Spotfin Shiner (Notropis spilopterus)

Since these two species are said by ichthyologists to be virtually indistinguishable in the field while alive, they are treated together here. Vague methods of distinguishing will be suggested.

Both species are members of the subgenus Cyprinella. They have usual Cyprinella attributes; streamlined shape; great speed and swimming ability; prominent diamond-shaped scales. They can also be identified by feel: it's as though they were made of metal. Males of the two species have several things particularly in common during breeding season: whitish or yellowish fins, pearlescent bodies, and rough tubercles on the snout. Females axe similar to each other, lacking high color.

The anal-fin ray count differs--satinfin 9, spotfin 8. C.L. Smith in Inland Fishes of New York State says the spotfin has 37-39 lateral-line scales, the satinfin 35-37. The most definite distinction Smith asserts, which the authors have not yet tested, is that satinfins have pigment scattered throughout the dorsal-fin membranes, while in the spotfins it is confined to the black dashes between posterior dorsal rays.

The authors of this summary have their own method of telling the species apart--blind instinct. But between them they usually agree, so there might be something to their guesswork. First, a major habitat clue: adult spotfins are more likely to inhabit small creeks, such as Kelly Run, Lancaster County, Pa.; adult satinfins, large ones. The habitat distinction is not 100-percent, however. Second, we have found satinfins only in the eastern part of this area--adjacent to the Delaware drainage, where we have never found spotfins (though both species are said to be there, too).

Now their looks: First, It appears that most fresh-caught spotfins are slightly trimmer than satinfins, possibly because they sometimes occur in great density; after a while in aquaria, spotfins fatten and the distinction blurs. Second, one is more conscious of greenish overtones to the bodily iridescence of spotfins, yellowish with satinfins. Both may develop yellowish fins. Aside from looks, in aquaria one author (BG) has found satinfins (males) slightly more assertive than spotfins.

In breeding time, the male satinfin's beauty magnetizes--especially that dorsal fin with its silver-white iridescence, lit kaleidoscopically with iridescent hues--blue, blue-green, green, gold, bronze. Is there another fish in the world with this type and brilliance of color? The other fins are silvery-white at their tips. The diamond-scaled pearl-gray body also flashes other colors.

A fantastic display is afforded by putting some male satinfins in an aquarium with a dark background, then having them only dimly lit by distant room light behind the viewer. He sees only the brilliant iridescent fins slashing the black, tracing incredible acrobatics. Satinfins and spotfins are two of the very best swimmers among native fishes. They make impossible moves at high speed, males sometimes chasing each other in tight circles, inseparable by human vision.

Frankly, we're not sure if we've ever seen a spotfin male in prime breeding condition. There have been occasional males with yellow-white fins which were quite attractive, but we've never seen any as spectacular as satinfins. The authors would be interested in reading good descriptions of breeding colors of male spotfins.

Satinfins occur usually above the Fall Line from upper New York State to North Carolina. Spotfins are found over a much more extensive mideast/midwest range. One of the authors (BG) has had several occasions to observe satinfins in nature during spawning season (May-June +) in the Wissahickon Creek, Philadelphia (Delaware drainage). John Eccleston and John Clairmont have also witnessed this. Satinfins dominate the shallows, males everywhere taking up stations, sortieing from them to attract females. Their fin displays are something to behold, as the silver-white is visible at some distance. Peak condition is attained in late May in the Wissahickon, which is at about the same latitude as the Lower Susquehanna in Pennsylvania.

It's compulsory to have a couple pairs of these fish in aquaria during breeding season despite the minor inconveniences--i.e., males unmercifully pursue any fish that can't swim out of the way; mighty few can. That tendency is not restricted to breeding season, though it becomes more intense then. After a while, in fact, it may become wearing to watch them!

There's no problem feeding these fish, They need lots of fuel to maintain their high-energy life-style, One doesn't buy a Ferrari for fuel economy, does one? They love flake food, freeze-dried food, live food, frozen food--you serve it, they'll eat it. At the start of aquarium life, they need lots of oxygen. They may be hard to transport home for that reason, so ice or some means of cooling is advisable. They soon adjust to reduced oxygen, however.

--BG

=============================

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Canyoncreek,
Interesting information. One thing I did notice that I did not mention when separating 4 for the forage pond and 4 for the small stream is the absence of color on the top of the back by the dorsal fin on a couple of fish. “Females axe similar to each other, lacking high color.” I assumed these were females and I sorted accordingly. Another article I found talks about the lack of success breeding Spotfin shiners indoors and how outdoor ponds provided greater than 95% success. https://www.uwsp.edu/cols-ap/nadf/P...%20Spotfin%20Shiner-%20Fischer%20PPT.pdf
Thanks for posting the article!

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CC & Heppy, members of the genus Cyprinella are collectively known as the "Satinfin Shiners". I guess the Satinfin serves as the type of the genus. The ones which can flourish in stillwaters are the most interesting. The 4 below are probably the best prospects each within the boundaries of their respective natural ranges. The links will take a person to a profile that also includes a range map. These four cover the majority of the real estate east of the Rockies.


Satinfin Shiner
https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=516

Spotfin Shiner
https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.aspx?SpeciesID=520

Red Shiner
https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=518

Blacktail
https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=521


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jpsdad,
I had previously called Jones Fish to see if I could buy some Satinfin shiners or Spotfin shiners and he told me that only the Satinfin shiner was native to my location. Mark also did not have a source for Satinfin shiners. I feel pretty good knowing now that I have not introduced a non-native species to the watershed even as much as I wanted something that spawned in the pond. However, I need to qualify my statement by saying that my pond is a flow through pond and many species native to the stream have pulled off a spawn because there is always flowing water. Thanks for the information!

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You've set a great example on sourcing natives for your pond. It's good for your local wildlife and the extra bonus is they are adapted to your locale and should thrive.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Thanks jpsdad but I have to give all the credit to Bill Codys’ knowledge and help getting me started on the correct path.

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I just want to stop by and say thank you for this post. Learned a lot more tonight

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Now I know I have a minimum of 72 hours in the transport cooler with finer shiner we headed back to the dock to see how things were going. I first checked the traps and found both empty with no residual food left in either trap. Strikeout on 2 minnow traps with the idea to use a mesh bag to hold the fish food in each trap closer to shore when I return in July. Next I checked the spawning device set 2-3 inches off the bottom of the lake in about 4 feet of water. Sure enough there were eggs deposited inside the spaces, more so in the ones that were closer together(3mm). I had no idea the eggs were so small. At first glance it looked like specks of dirt attached to the cd. Upon further examination I could see movement from inside the egg. The spawning device was then placed in a small cooler with lake water on the dock. My son went to pull up the second spawning device that was located in the shallow water closer to shore. As he took it out of the water he said dad aren’t there supposed to be more cds than the half dozen or so that remained on the threaded eye bolt. Sure enough the nut, washer, milk top spacers and another 7-8 cds were gone. Seeing this I proceeded to get in the lake with my clothes on and managed to recover the ones missing. No such luck with the nut, washer or spacers(they float) amongst the rip rap. I didn’t have a magnet on hand like I do at the pond to try and find the nut and washer. Oh well, on to examine the number of eggs on the deconstructed spawning device and put it into the small cooler. I found the spawning device set more shallow contained a greater number of eggs even fallen apart as Bill previously thought would happen. There is a lot of boat traffic on this area of the lake. The wake of the waves hitting the shore with the movement of the spawning device hitting a dock piling is what I assume caused it to come apart. Lastly we cast netted 2 adult Satinfin shiners and took them and the spawning devices to the transport cooler. It was quite a way to end Fathers Day after getting together with family for linner. I hope all of you who were able to get together with your Father or family had as great a time as I did today.

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Originally Posted by Heppy
Thanks jpsdad but I have to give all the credit to Bill Codys’ knowledge and help getting me started on the correct path.

Bill deserves credit for his great tutorship. After receiving it, however, you still must choose to follow it. I think that deserves credit too. Be cause you followed his good lead, you are now on the path of helping others do the same and that can make a difference.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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A dab of green or blue loctite when you put the nut on the threads will hold it in place. Just need to let dry for a day before putting in water. Don't use Red - you will have to heat it up to remove it.


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Thanks for the tip esshup. I had only thought of a lock nut until now.

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