Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Native bass eating protein??

I have owned and managed a number of ponds - my native black bass are eating my protein and I have never seen this before. I know they can be trained at birth but wondering what is going on here?

How old are they? What type of protein?

the ones I can see eating it are a good 3 lbs plus - using the Sportsmans floating from Tractor Supply -

I have found that some non-feed trained LMB will take to eating pellets when they are crowded and hungry enough. Once they start, they seem to continue ad infinitum.

I hypothesize that some of the LMB that gather to try and catch BG eating pellets each day figure out that there are easier pickings.

P.S. You might want to switch to a higher % protein feed if you want the best results for the feeding LMB.

I thought the same thing - the bass come because the bluegill are everywhere eating the feed and then they give it a try.

36% protein seems reasonable to me - paying a bunch more $ for 40% does not make sense to me unless I am missing something

I used to feed MVP but switched to Floating Catfish food. Bass and bluegill alike love it.

Kids may love eating nothing but chocolate, but it's not the best diet for them.

Be sure to check the protein source - not all proteins are equal and some cant be used effectively.

The fish food quality that you use is dependent on the quality of fish that you expect to achieve. Less is lesser, better produces better, healthier, more aggressively feeding, and bigger fish. Your choice.

Thanks for clearing that up. We've always wondered....

If only your mother had known ...

OK so somebody educate me - The Sportsmans fish protein feed is worthless? I understand Optimal is top end but very expensive and in my experience I watch half of it sink to the bottom before it is eaten - give me a better option that I can find or order than what I am feeding? Thanks Tim

Tim,
The way I understand it you want to use a fish food that contains 40% protein or more composed primarily of fish meal, depending on your species of fish. If it is for baitfish or catfish the Sportsman’s should be just fine. Hopefully someone from Texas can advise you on brands nearby. One advantage of Optimal is shipping right to your doorstep. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong. Hope this helps!

Thanks Heppy - mine is for bait fish only and I pick it up at Tractor supply on the way home - pretty easy - I have used optimal and no doubt a great feed - but picking feed up is pretty easy in my case so paying double the price and waiting on it to ship does not make sense to me - but I stand to be corrected -

The Sportsmen's Choice feed is okay for bait fish, catfish and a decent choice for sunfishes. When premium fish with best growth and least amount of waste due to undigestable food are desired then the fish food with at least 40% protein is best.

I’m an Optimal fan.

It is not worthless - good for CC and minnows etc. , ok for supplemental feeding BG , RES etc. and not so great for LMB , HSB etc.

CC can use low % protein (fish based) and carbs. BG can use low proteins ( fish based 32%) low carbs , LMB and HSB do much better on higher % proteins (fish based) minimal carbs.

Based on my experience (have used many feed types including Tractor Supply) I like other brands (Purina and Optimal) much better than TS. Hope this helps.

The BGs in my pond seem to do pretty well on the Tractor Supply food. I imagine if I had a teeny pond the premium stuff might be worth spending twice as much money to get a slightly better protein %.

IMO you would be better off feeding 1/2 as much of the better feed (Aquamax MVP or Optimal), and will still get better growth and better water quality than with Sportsman Choice. UNLESS you are feeding catfish, then the grain based Sportsman it a good choice.

I had no luck with sportsman choice for BG . It may be fine for catfish but like was said previous not to good on BG

thanks for all of the insight - my BG hammer the Sportsman - I have no catfish - as mentioned in an earlier thread my observation was that half of the Optimal sinks while the Sportsman all floats and gets hammered by my BG - and again no knock on Optimal - I just struggle with 3-4% higher protein level for BG makes a huge difference? My BG are plenty healthy and large so must be doing something right

so in looking at Optimal's ingredients versus Sportsman - (sorry when I typed this it shows the two split apart but for some reason when it post it shows them right together

Sportsman Optimal
Protein 36% 40%

Fat 4% 10%

Fiber Nothing shown 4

Phosphorus .65 1%


Sportsman shows Vitamin D3, E, B6, and Folic acid levels

Optimal does not show any of these than I can find

I have analyzed deer protein feed for years and the devil is in the details versus marketing - I have no doubt that Optimal is a first class fish feed but just would like to determine if the "extra" ingredients are worth the extra $$ - again I am open to being educated if I am off track - Thanks

I’m not really sure that feed brands matter all that much.

Several years ago Lusk had a get together at his place for PB mods. Sitting around a camp fire, enjoying a couple of beers, we discussed this topic. My take away from that was that, as long as it was a premium brand, and all other things equal(water quality), any premium brand was ok. Lusk, Alan Hall(Fire is hot) and I all raised big, healthy bluegills. I fed Optimal, Lusk fed Purina, and Al fed something else that I don’t remember. Skretting?

A balanced (MANAGED)pond with the right environment and a premium feed with the right amount of groceries is the most important factor.

My biggest challenge vs Bob and Als is that they get a lot more rain than I do. Also, Al has to spend $$ treating his water. East Texas soils don’t contribute much for ponds. And, yet world famous Lake Fork is just down the road from him. They can’t treat that.

Look at this from an old thread.

Here is some info from Mark Griffin , PhD, previously with Purina.

Dog food is designed for dogs - you are much better off going with fish food designed for the fish you are feeding.

Feather meal as a fish food protein source. There are two primary factors of protein quality for monogastrics (fish for this discussion) - 1) Amino Acid profile and 2) Amino Acid availability. The amino acid profile of feather looks pretty good if you look at the Total Sulfur Amino Acid content. It has a high content of cystine - a sulfur amino acid (SAA). SAAs can be limiting in monogastric diets and tend to be expensive to formulate into diets (they are relatively low in many inexpensive plant proteins). Unfortunately, the reason it is so high is because feather is a structural protein. The di-sulfide bonds between two cysteines make the protein very tough. This is what gives the keratins their structural rigidity - like our hair and fingernails. Unfortunately, this serves to make them very hard to digest. Therefore, as a rule, the availability is not so good. To increase the availability, feather meal is often hydrolyzed, this is an attempot to break down the disulfide bonds to increase availability. Shoe leather analyzes at 85% crude protein, but it is not digestible.

A word on protein sources.... Most protein sources are available in different qualities. This is particularly true for the expensive animal proteins - fish meal, poultry meals, blood meals, etc. Quality and freshness of the raw materials and the processing are factors that result in this variability. As examples:
A) Quality of Raw Materials: Meat meals are often priced on protein content - simply put, it is the ratio of bone (ash) to meat (protein). Bones (minerals, ash) are not as valuable as protein.
B) Freshness of Raw Materials: The US commercial fishing fleet for menhaden now has all refrigerated vessel storage.... the season is in over the summer, primarily in the Gulf of Mexico. Obviously, if it is not refrigerated....
c) Processing: Blood has a good amino acid profile. If it is drum-dried (essentially scorched on a extremely hot steel drum) it has poor availability and is a fairly poor ingredient. If it has been spray dried under low heat - it is an excellent ingredient.

High quality fish meal is the gold standard - it has the best Amino acid profile for fish (fish protein to grow fish protein)and is highly digestible. Further, it tastes great to fish (fish meal based diets are much more palatable to carnivorous fish) and it contains about 10% fish oil (high in omega 3 polyunsaturated fatty acids). Many other proteins can be used as long as they are formulated properly into an overall dietary amino acid profile.


Just depends on what warm water fish you are feeding and what results you desire. For instance, when grown at 80 F, fingerling Hybrid Striped Bass growth varied significantly, depending on both type and content of dietary protein and content of fat. Catfish formulations are plant based, while good trout/salmon formulations are animal based (preferably fish based). Strictly carnivorous fish do not do as well on plant-protein based diets. Below, diets are described in terms of Protein/fat, so a 40/10 is 40% protein and 10% fat (the OLD reliable trout diet).

36/8 (plant based)... 280% Weight Gain X
42/4 (plant based)....347% " 1.24X
35/10 (fish based)....432% " 1.54X
44/8 (fish based)....487% " 1.74X
55/15 (fish based)....650% " 2.32X**

It is important to note that all of these diets were high quality, they were just designed for different purposes and vary greatly in cost. For instance the 36/8 is designed for channel catfish fingerlings and the 55/15 is designed for Atlantic Salmon fingerlings. The 55/15 may cost 4 times as much as the plant based 36, so the economics are certainly arguable... just depends.

**Additionally, the ultra high growth on the 55/15 should be taken with a grain of salt as it resulted in obese fish (HSB very efficiently lay down dietary fat in their abdominal cavity), indeed the whole-body fat of HSB fed the 55/15 was 62% greater than that of the fish fed the 42/4.



Well, today I see that Yahoo has a story on the importance of omega 3 fatty acids for us humans. For most of us, the source is fish - salmon, tuna, sardines, etc. I have not seen the data - but, for winter survival, the idea is that fish oil is a fluid. This enhance membrane fluidity. This is often cited as a reason for the role of PUFAs with brain function/development. When the water gets cold, the fish get cold. Therefore, it stands to reason that these fats benefit the animals in cold conditions. If the overall fatty acid profile has too much saturated fat, their fat reserves will solidify in cold water - like tallow in cold water. These PUFAs are important in many other aspects besides the physical properties....

Predatory fish get these fats from the smaller fish they consume. They do not synthesize the long chain PUFAs. The source is from algae and these fats are passed on to algae-eating zooplankton and fish and move up the food chain. Menhaden are excellent sources of the omega 3 PUFAs, because they are fatty fish and about 25% of their fatty acids are the long chain PUFAs. So, in a prepared diet, you need either a significant amount of certain marine algaes, or fish oil or meal (approximately 10% of fish meal is fish oil - as a side note... this is because fish meal is mechanically expressed, so it does not get all the fat out. In solvent-extracted meals - such as soybean meal - there is vurtually no fat left).

From

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=117723&page=1

and

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=29710&page=1

ewest, have you seen anything further on research/commercial use (that came out a few years ago) of the proprietary process to make soy protein more agreeable for fish food use? IIRC without the treatment, too much soy protein "bogged down" the growth of fish; with the treatment the % of soy protein in growth promoting fish food could be greatly increased.

Mark is the guy, MANY years ago, who told me about the chicken feathers . High protein but not digestible for fish. I soon after talked to the Owner of a company who was producing high protein fish feed from feathers. They were selling quite a bit of it in North Texas. He said they had been getting amazing growth from their fish in their test pond. I asked how it was possible since it all went through their gut due to not being digestible. He walked away and left.

Feathers and weight gain just don't fly.

I truly appreciate all of the info but you have exceeded my pay grade - my very long term experience with deer protein feed tells me that most all of the name brand deer protein is good stuff - end of the day very little difference for the end results when it come to deer protein. I would assume there is some similarity between deer protein and fish protein?

I refer back to my earlier comments - if BG will dive to the bottom to eat the pellets off of the bottom (which is concerning since once the pellets hit "bottom" they are most likely lost in the muck and weeds) then I am good with Optimal - however if literally half of my Optimal pellets are sinking and not to be eaten then I have a problem with that waste . The Sportsman (and the Purina I have used) all floats and gets hammered quickly. Just what I have personally observed

Simply put I have a 2 acre pond that I want my bass and BG to be healthy - end of the day if there are minor differences in make up the feed then I simply do not care - on the other hand if somebody can convince me that there would be a 20-30% difference in my bait fish and bass then I will listen

Reminds me of that young man who was pursuing a career in aeration via fountains at one of the last PB conferences. You crushed his dreams and left myself and Allen Hall/FireIsHot to comfort the young man off the proverbial ledge. Brutal.

I hand feed Optimal, so I'm able to closely observe what the fish are reacting to the pellets.

If the behavior in my pond is even slightly typical, I'd say you have little to worry about in terms of pellets making it to the bottom of the pond.

BG will readily take a pellet as it sinks, RES prefer a sinking pellet, and will pick them up off the bottom with gusto.

Assuming that you are throwing a reasonable amount, into water with a bit of depth, it's not likely that many pellets are being wasted.

To add to Augie's comment, any feed that does not float will probably will not physically sink into the bottom muck early on before it gets eaten.

feather and wait gain just dont fly

I think there is a spectrum of fish food application. On one end is a aquaculture farm where fish rely 100% on artificial meals. On the other end are fish who fend for themselves. Many PB ponds are in between.

Many of us here work to maintain a diverse and healthy food chain in the pond. We feed to:

1) Enjoy watching the fish eat.
2) Keep the RWs up.
3) Ease the overall load on the food chain.

Personally I'm very happy with the results I get from the Tractor Supply stuff. Bass and Bluegill both love it and look great. After switching from three years of MVP I don't see any difference in the pond, but I do in my wallet.

Someone who has different goals probably would see a difference. Particularly if their fish are relying on the feed for a significant portion of their diet.

T here is your request via Pond Boss Mag. Guys if you don't get the Mag please subscribe.

T I have not heard that this product is available for pond owners. I would like to know if anyone has seen it out there.


POND BOSS MAGAZINE

The Cutting Edge - Science Review

Fish Food Update
By Eric West


Fish growth often is limited by food availability and supplemental feeding is a logical tool to improve the condition of fish in small impoundments. The question then becomes many times more complicated because the immense variety of cultured fish species hampers efforts to simplify production of feed (pellets) industry wide. Over 170 types of fish are currently cultured, including carnivores like Bass, Trout and Hybrid Striped Bass, herbivores such as Tilapia, planktivores including Shad, and omnivores one being Catfish, each having its own set of nutritional demands
Fish food must be designed to meet the nutritional requirements of the applicable species and must be manufactured into pellets that the fish will readily accept and utilize efficiently. Several factors can affect the ability of fish to find , eat and utilize a food pellet including physical characteristics such as pellet density (floating, sinking, sinking rate), size (shape, diameter, and length), color (contrast), texture (hardness) and smell (taste) . For example as a strict carnivore, Largemouth Bass have been found to be negatively impacted by carbohydrate levels of 20% or more. Other studies showed the several magnitude increase in efficiency and growth when Bluegill are provided adequate food through supplemental feeding. The more we look the more evident it becomes that fish food requirements are species dependent. Bass are carnivores, bluegill, while related, have both carnivore and omnivore traits, as do catfish a true omnivore, while grass carp and tilapia are herbivories. We all know that wolves, bears, humans and sheep each have different food requirements. So it’s no surprise that different fish species do also.

In brief, an overview reveals that fish meal (from limited supplies of herring type fishes) has historically been the preferred protein source (gold standard) used in many fish food diets, but high costs and environmental/availability concerns are serious issues for a growing aquaculture industry. With the fast growing demand in fish consumption (for many years at twice the rate of population growth) there has been unsustainable demand on wild fish stocks and a compelling need to develop an alternative to fishmeal from wild fish stocks. A number of recent studies have addressed alternative sources of proteins from animals and plants. Plant based products contain anti-nutritional factors which have greatly limited them as a viable option. Some of the studies are reported and others are proprietary. Dietary protein, lipids and carbohydrates (if needed) must be kept in proper balance because a deficiency or excess of any one can cause issues. Fish fed diets deficient in lipids will metabolize more expensive dietary protein (or muscle) to meet energy requirements. Most pond fish, other than herbivores, do not require carbohydrates in their diet, as complex carbohydrates cannot be digested and utilized efficiently by most of these species. For this reason, diets fed to carnivores and most pond species rarely contain more than 20% complex carbohydrate. The exception among predator fish is Hybrid Striped Bass which can digest carbs and can become obese on standard fish foods. Conversely, warmwater omnivores or herbivores (e.g., channel catfish, tilapia, common carp, and white sturgeon) adapt well to diets containing as much as 40% dietary carbohydrate. Further although vitamins and minerals are required in minute amounts compared with protein, lipid, and so forth, they are critically important, as every micronutrient has a deficiency disease associated with it, the effects of which are sometimes irreversible or fatal. For a few vitamins and most minerals, excess can be equally detrimental, resulting in toxicity.

Some older studies reported that plant proteins are often associated with nutritional deficiencies due to incomplete amino acid profiles, reduced palatability, and various anti-nutritional factors. While others reported that, when plant and animal protein sources are properly combined to produce complementary amino acid profiles, growth and survival can significantly increase.

It was recently reported that one leading University in collaboration with others developed a proprietary soybean-based, high performance protein ingredient for fish food that is both economical and sustainable. The process involves using a food grade microbe to greatly reduce the anti-nutritional factors that have long hindered the use of plant based proteins in fish food. The process produces a product that is 70% protein which is more digestible (near 100% vs 80% for standard fish meal) and can be formulated to meet various amino acid, vitamin and mineral requirements. Tests were conducted on multiple species for palatability, digestibility and conversion efficiency and found to exceed marine fish meal. The product has been tested in other university research facilities and numerous commercial aquaculture sites yielding outstanding results in marine and freshwater fish species and shellfish. The product ME-PRO is now in commercial production and used all over the world. Look for its use in your favorite fish foods.

That is some cutting edge science that should help pond enthusiasts.

I heard about this research back in 2017 at the Ohio Aquaculture Conference. The presenters were pretty sketchy with the details of their process; IIRC they were waiting on a patent application.

I kind of expected to see it out by now.

It is patented and produced and sold but to my knowledge no pond fish food manufactures are using it that I know of.

ME-PRO analysis if it helps.
https://prairieaquatech.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Typical-Analysis_MEPro_0421-1.pdf

Frankly, if we're talking $ spent per lb of fish growth, I suspect the Tractor Supply feed wins. Now if we're talking longevity & health of the fish, plus maybe overfertilization issues of the pond, the winner would likely differ.

No one "right" answer. Very much depends on goals, budget.

Nope!! I did a test a number of years back using Tractor Supply Sportmans Choice food. The amount of food that was needed was astounding. I was feeding Sportsmans Choice food to Hybrid Bluegills (not the catfish food) and feeding 120# of food still didn't get the fish weight that 40# of Optimal did.

so is the Purina brand fish food on the equivalent to the Optimal?

With all due respect I disagree - my feeder is elevated so when I stand up high while tossing feed out I can see my fish and the bottom - with Optimal a good percentage goes to the bottom - I have a healthy number of BG and bass - (no catfish) - so my question remains - once a pellet hits the bottom will BG go down and get it out of the muck?

With all due respect I disagree - my feeder is elevated so when I stand up high while tossing feed out I can see my fish and the bottom - with Optimal a good percentage goes to the bottom - I have a healthy number of BG and bass - (no catfish) - so my question remains - once a pellet hits the bottom will BG go down and get it out of the muck?
see my post above - I failed to attach to your post

Wow. I expected significant improvement in results per pound of feed, but not triple.

Tim, do you have redear sunfish as well as bluegill? Redear seem more bottom oriented

mostly BG but a few Redear - no worries I just love a good debate! My pond and fish are doing great- think I will keep doing what I have been doing!

anthropic, I was surprised as well.

Yes, bluegill will eat off the bottom. However, they may go after that 'low lying fruit' after they hit the feed that's floating or suspended.

At the end of the day, my thoughts are to feed whatever you want if it makes you happy.

These days, I go with Optimal solely because I order it from hoosierpondpros.com (esshup's company) and it arrives at my door. I use three sizes, and the smaller "Grower" pellets do have more of them that sink quicker than the other sizes.

Both Purina and Optimal are good foods and there are others. IMO much better than TS brand. Depends on goals and pond as to application. Some food is better than no food in most ponds situations.

I was using tractor supply sportsman's choice for many years. I had BG and CC that would readily eat it, but not with the intensity they do now. I'm now using purina aquamax mvp. I have yet to see a single pellet make it to the bottom before a bluegill darts in and scarfs it up. The feeder is now set for 6 times a day at 6-8 seconds. All feed is consumed in under 10 minutes sometimes under 2-3 minutes. I recently noticed a lmb around 14-16 inches hammering the pellets too. I thought that was pretty cool since none of my fish are feed trained. First time in 15 years I have seen a LMB eating pellets in my pond.The feeder is a cheap moultrie directional feeder, but it's doing its job pretty well for now.

Yep, I've seen on average about 10% (that's a WAG) of the native non-feed trained bass start to eat pellets in ponds.