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Re: New pond in East Texas
anthropic #532446 03/18/21 09:57 PM
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Frank, I am still not sure I understand what kind of development you are talking about. I get these flyers every year about "lake front property" and that was the vision I had about that bow. Now I am getting the sense they were a group of pasture ponds or maybe water retention facilities in a typical subdivision? Whatever the case, I'm glad you didn't bite the bullet too.


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Re: New pond in East Texas
trophybg #532448 03/18/21 10:06 PM
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"In a small pond, a higher stocking (r)ate is something recommended to reduce spawning activity."

They have perfected a 100% effective technique to avoid the stunting of fish in a pond due to a high reproductive rate.

The solution is to induce stunting of the fish by a high initial stocking rate!

It's a genius plan AND they get to sell more fish.

/sarc off

Re: New pond in East Texas
jpsdad #532449 03/18/21 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Guys, I have to say I am very disappointed in a reply I received from TFF.

I told him "For reasons we don't understand, he stocked his 1/20 acre pond at the rate of 6000 bluegill per acre. It would be great to hear your side of the story and much better if you could reach out to that customer and help set him on the right path."

This was his reply. "Thank you for your email, The stocking rate is within American Fisheries Society guidelines. In a small pond, a higher stocking (r)ate is something recommended to reduce spawning activity."

So their side of the story is that they made the right recommendation. I do not agree with them and I am certain that I personally ... will never seek stock from them. I suppose they meant well, but IMO, its not good advice.


That's interesting. The American FIsheries Society guideline for stocking ponds in Texas dated 2005 says 750 BG per acre in a fertilized pond and 375 in an unfertilized pond. https://units.fisheries.org/tx/tc-manuals/


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: New pond in East Texas
esshup #532451 03/18/21 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by esshup
That's interesting. The American FIsheries Society guideline for stocking ponds in Texas dated 2005 says 750 BG per acre in a fertilized pond and 375 in an unfertilized pond. https://units.fisheries.org/tx/tc-manuals/

I thought about asking him to point me to a reference that places 6000 BG/acre within the guidelines ... but after 2 seconds ... I just went pffftt. I am done with it.

Swingle may have been the first ... if not one the first ... to demonstrate that fish density can inhibit reproduction. But as far as I know his recipe was around 1500 BG per acre (3750/hectare). He was able to grow them to about 6" from 2" fingerlings with Gambusia and fertilizer in about 5 months. Perhaps greater densities are appropriate for food fish production with surface aeration but I just can't imagine such densities for a small recreational pond.


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Re: New pond in East Texas
trophybg #532454 03/18/21 11:00 PM
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I have the same problem up here. There is a fish farm in Mi. that is only concerned with selling fish, (and another place here in Indiana). The place in Mi only sells Hybrid Bluegills and recommended stocking 300 LMB per acre to a person with a 3 ac pond that wanted to grow large bass.

The place in Indiana did an electroshock survey and the LMB were 60%-70% RW. Their recommendation was to stock 100 LMB per surface acre to "diversify the genetics", and to stock another 1,000 BG per acre. They also recommended NOT removing any LMB for the next 2 years (that's when they were scheduled to do another e-shock survey).


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Re: New pond in East Texas
jpsdad #532456 03/18/21 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Frank, I am still not sure I understand what kind of development you are talking about. I get these flyers every year about "lake front property" and that was the vision I had about that bow. Now I am getting the sense they were a group of pasture ponds or maybe water retention facilities in a typical subdivision? Whatever the case, I'm glad you didn't bite the bullet too.

True that. The developer knew water would attract home buyers so he had a bunch of ponds built, but I don't think he understood fisheries at all. I sometimes wonder what happened to those ponds during the 2011-15 drought, especially the shallower ones with limited watersheds. My guess would be a big headache, especially in the summer. Heartbreaker for retired folks who paid for their dream place next to the "lake." Without PB, I might have been one of them.

Last edited by anthropic; 03/18/21 11:30 PM.

8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17,L, 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 25 HSB & 250 F1 9/20,L,180# RBT 12/20, 206, 7k TFS,100#TP 5/21, 207



Re: New pond in East Texas
esshup #532464 03/19/21 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by esshup
I have the same problem up here. There is a fish farm in Mi. that is only concerned with selling fish, (and another place here in Indiana). The place in Mi only sells Hybrid Bluegills and recommended stocking 300 LMB per acre to a person with a 3 ac pond that wanted to grow large bass.

The place in Indiana did an electroshock survey and the LMB were 60%-70% RW. Their recommendation was to stock 100 LMB per surface acre to "diversify the genetics", and to stock another 1,000 BG per acre. They also recommended NOT removing any LMB for the next 2 years (that's when they were scheduled to do another e-shock survey).

This kind of advice is disheartening indeed. Very sad to hear it. I have to wonder if people who make recommendations like that are just well meaning stupid people who have disillusioned themselves by cultivating lies to themselves. Or if they are really clever people who see an opportunity to fleece and take advantage of their customer's trust. Either is unacceptable of course.


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Re: New pond in East Texas
jpsdad #532465 03/19/21 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Originally Posted by esshup
I have the same problem up here. There is a fish farm in Mi. that is only concerned with selling fish, (and another place here in Indiana). The place in Mi only sells Hybrid Bluegills and recommended stocking 300 LMB per acre to a person with a 3 ac pond that wanted to grow large bass.

The place in Indiana did an electroshock survey and the LMB were 60%-70% RW. Their recommendation was to stock 100 LMB per surface acre to "diversify the genetics", and to stock another 1,000 BG per acre. They also recommended NOT removing any LMB for the next 2 years (that's when they were scheduled to do another e-shock survey).

This kind of advice is disheartening indeed. Very sad to hear it. I have to wonder if people who make recommendations like that are just well meaning stupid people who have disillusioned themselves by cultivating lies to themselves. Or if they are really clever people who see an opportunity to fleece and take advantage of their customer's trust. Either is unacceptable of course.

I think it's the latter because both places have been in business for over 30 years (IIRC).

Last year I was stocking a pond with Triploid Grass Carp and the owner said that they stocked them last year but they never seemed to do any good. I asked how many and what size? Their reply was 14 (1 acre pond) and they were 8" long. (they have LMB that were in the 4# range.....) When I said that is probably why, because a bass can eat them easily at that size they said "I wonder why the other fish company never said anything. They knew what size the bass were in here."

That's the reason why we only stock 12"+ Triploid Grass Carp. Saves us from carrying different sizes and having to ask the customer what size bass they have in their pond, then trying to explain why stocking small ones in a pond with large bass isn't such a good idea (for the pond owner).

I've seen LMB in a pond when the TGC are stocked, glide up to one, grab it then about 3 -5 seconds later spit it out because they can't eat them.


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Re: New pond in East Texas
esshup #532467 03/19/21 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by esshup
I've seen LMB in a pond when the TGC are stocked, glide up to one, grab it then about 3 -5 seconds later spit it out because they can't eat them.

What a treat.

That's a sight I hope to see someday too.

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/19/21 09:17 AM.

Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Re: New pond in East Texas
jpsdad #532502 03/20/21 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Guys, I have to say I am very disappointed in a reply I received from TFF.

I told him "For reasons we don't understand, he stocked his 1/20 acre pond at the rate of 6000 bluegill per acre. It would be great to hear your side of the story and much better if you could reach out to that customer and help set him on the right path."

This was his reply. "Thank you for your email, The stocking rate is within American Fisheries Society guidelines. In a small pond, a higher stocking (r)ate is something recommended to reduce spawning activity."

So their side of the story is that they made the right recommendation. I do not agree with them and I am certain that I personally ... will never seek stock from them. I suppose they meant well, but IMO, its not good advice.

Hi,

I received similar advice from two other fish farms.
To protect them I won't mention them publicly but they deliver fish from out of state and they advertise locally in feed shops (simple flyer on front door).
I trusted TFF because they have been in business for quite some time and generally if you provide a bad product or service then you won't be around for long.

I'm just glad I didn't go with the 100 channel cats as he suggested.

Re: New pond in East Texas
trophybg #532508 03/20/21 07:29 AM
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trophybg,

I am glad to see you post. I would just mention that is OK to tell your story and who was involved in it. Where advice was given, it is important to have context from which they gave the advice. Basically what knowledge they had of your goals and your water. In my case, I have a written record of my interaction and so I don't mind sharing it here because it's factual and I can back it up. I am neither trying to protect any supplier nor harm any supplier. My motivation was actually that the supplier help you get on a good path, I just wasn't sure we would get that opportunity here. I believe the most valuable thing a supplier does is give advice that's going to work. He doesn't get paid for the advice generally from someone inquiring about the purchase of fish but is compensated when he sells the fish. In many respects, it isn't fair to them when the value of the advice is much greater than the value of the fish ... something which is often the case.

I once read essup say "I would rather pay once and cry once." My father, now 93, on many occasions in my youth told me that I could learn lessons through the school of hard knocks, but that if I would pay attention, I could learn from the experience of others. That's been one the greatest lessons he taught me among many others.

Often the best or most easily accomplished path doesn't completely match our goals. I didn't think you wanted CC so I didn't go into any detail on options there when I made suggestions. But I will say this, the first option presented, 100 CC, was not bad advice in the way 300 BG appears bad to me. CC can stand much lower water quality and they usually will not reproduce until attaining lengths of 18" in length. They can be kept at higher standing weights without aeration. 100 CC was a workable recommendation that would work successfully provided you began harvesting before they got too large. $75 doesn't go very far now-a-days or they might have suggested 50 which would have allowed you to grow them to 1 pound without exceeding 1000 lbs/acre standing weight. The kids don't care what they are catching. I am speaking from experience. Some times my kids aren't even fishing when I take them, sometimes they are exploring nature and just hanging out with Dad.

Anyways, now is a good time for you to go through the forum posts in your thread and study them. Formulate questions about their advice in order to gain to additional knowledge. The advice varied and that is because there are a range of workable options. They all don't produce identical results and even don't produce the same results in different ponds. How your pond develops is unique but the principles of managing its unique development remain consistent. When you understand all the various recommendations and what to expect from them, then the question becomes, how do you get your pond to that sweet spot with its current situation. It's a small pond so it won't be very costly regardless of the path you choose. Forum members want to help you but it will be up to you to take advantage of that.

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/20/21 09:07 AM.

Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Re: New pond in East Texas
highflyer #532949 03/28/21 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by highflyer
Well I don't know if this is going to sit well, but no, do not aerate. You have a very small stock tank. Don't buy a feeder, don't aerate. They will only add to your problems.

You will understand sooner or later. Sadly some lessons just have to be learned the hard way.

Hey highflyer,

I guess not adding a feeder won't clog up the small tank with uneaten food.
But what is the benefit of not providing the fish aeration/oxygen?

Re: New pond in East Texas
trophybg #532956 03/28/21 01:26 PM
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T BG,
You overstocked your tank without letting the water settle. You have no idea what your chemistry is like and you have no idea about the PH (yes I know that is part of the chemistry), In short, adding aeration will oxygenate. If you are going to use low cost bottom diffused aeration, it will just cause you problems. If you use a good surface aerator, you could help your issues.

A good bottom aeration system could be minimally beneficial as your water is not that deep and should not stratify much, but again surface aeration is what you are going to need if added. Good aeration is one place where you have to pay for quality.

All that said, it appears your tank is located in a protected location. Aeration would help, but you are going to have to learn about the differences and choose what will work best for you.

Adding aeration now is going to also add to your requirements to pull more fish as they get larger, or you will have a fish kill. Either way, you have caused yourself a lot of work to get back to balance point.

I know this sounds harsh, but believe me it is not meant that way. I wish you would have listened and taken a little more time to learn before buying too many fish. Your issue is correctable, but it's going to be a bit more work than I think you wanted. As you learn, your tank will be a really fun place for your children/grandchildren but it will take some time and effort.


Brian

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A dry fly catches no fish
Try not to be THAT 10%
Re: New pond in East Texas
highflyer #535263 05/17/21 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by highflyer
T BG,
You overstocked your tank without letting the water settle. You have no idea what your chemistry is like and you have no idea about the PH (yes I know that is part of the chemistry), In short, adding aeration will oxygenate. If you are going to use low cost bottom diffused aeration, it will just cause you problems. If you use a good surface aerator, you could help your issues.

A good bottom aeration system could be minimally beneficial as your water is not that deep and should not stratify much, but again surface aeration is what you are going to need if added. Good aeration is one place where you have to pay for quality.

All that said, it appears your tank is located in a protected location. Aeration would help, but you are going to have to learn about the differences and choose what will work best for you.

Adding aeration now is going to also add to your requirements to pull more fish as they get larger, or you will have a fish kill. Either way, you have caused yourself a lot of work to get back to balance point.

I know this sounds harsh, but believe me it is not meant that way. I wish you would have listened and taken a little more time to learn before buying too many fish. Your issue is correctable, but it's going to be a bit more work than I think you wanted. As you learn, your tank will be a really fun place for your children/grandchildren but it will take some time and effort.

Hi
Your response was not harsh at all.
You say use a "good surface aerator", could your recommend 2-3?

My biggest problem now is overflowing


[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]


There should be no water behind that log on the right.
That's full pool at 4.5' deep
Where it is in the picture it is 5.5' deep
And we have more rain forecasted the next five days straight.

Other than that
I'm seeing tons of FHM schools, still haven't seen any CNBG.
I have beehives a couple hundred feet away from the pond so lots of bees visit the shore daily and when they drown become fish food.

Re: New pond in East Texas
trophybg #535277 05/17/21 11:44 AM
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Water looks very brown (possible clay suspension) ? Suggest you get water and soil samples (inexpensive) so you know what is needed and what is not.
















Re: New pond in East Texas
ewest #535282 05/17/21 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ewest
Water looks very brown (possible clay suspension) ? Suggest you get water and soil samples (inexpensive) so you know what is needed and what is not.


Soil sample from the bottom of the pond?
Or area that surrounds the pond?

Re: New pond in East Texas
trophybg #535320 05/18/21 12:54 PM
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Pond bottom but it will likely be very similar to that of watershed. see requirements of test facility (TX AM).

TX http://soiltesting.tamu.edu/

Last edited by ewest; 05/18/21 12:55 PM.















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