Forums36
Topics40,963
Posts557,995
Members18,504
|
Most Online3,612 Jan 10th, 2023
|
|
|
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,902 Likes: 281
|
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,902 Likes: 281 |
That's a tough call, jpsdad, I know what your question is but the management input to control various sizes would have to be structured around a specific time frame or the results will be biased in the direction of taking smaller fish as they continue to grow. Just thinking out loud.. I was just thinking from the perspective of method or protocol to maintain the 40-40-20 year after year after year. So a sustainable management method that is effective at maintaining the population structure. Considering the 8" to 15" fish comprise 80 % of the population, its obvious that a minimum of 75% of them must go (assuming they are replaced by recruitment maintaining their numbers). Because the production is the mortality, only mortality allow the fish to grow. So the mortality of say a 24" fish allows all the fish >15" to grow larger and a 12" to 15" fish to grow into the >15" class ... the mortality of 12"-15" fish allows an equal number of 8'-12" fish to grow into the 12"-15" class ... so what remains sufficient mortality <12" to restrict the population in that class to 40% of the population. The challenge, Is understanding the amount of annual mortality required to restrict each class to its respective population goal. It is complicated because recruitment varies with strong year classes and because it also depends on annual growth of individual fish. I am not sure how to employ a method ... it would be helpful to have survey metrics one is confident to estimate relative abundance of each class. My personal experience at my pond was I never had to cull the lmb. I am pretty sure the pond was culled through several different methods. BG, while they many not be very good cullers of LMB. BG are pretty good at preventing swim up fry when BG numbers are high in the intermediate sizes. They may have restricted recruitment of swim up or prevented it altogether. So if you were seeing lots of 2" LMB fry then the ospreys, cormorants, and LMB were doing a good job of limiting recruitment of LMB adults. If you didn't see lots of 2" fry, they may not have been any. The 40-40-20 system that Dr Anderson proposes intends for annual natural recruitment and probably depends on it (or at least bi-annual success of LMB recruitment) in order work smoothly.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,864 Likes: 298
|
OP
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,864 Likes: 298 |
Every pond is different and has its own personality. So cull from what you see and not what someone else sees at their pond. Wise words. And not only is every pond different, every year at the pond is different, too. The balance is always shifting, we just need to keep up. In answer to my initial question, I guess it's best to assess relative abundance of different size classes via angling & electro-survey every year. If very abundant LMB under 8 inches, harvest them. Not so abundant, throw them back. Strategy will flex with population dynamics. Usually I have loads of really small LMB, but used herbicide that wiped out 90% plus of my pondweeds last summer. Not much has regrown, either. Perhaps there will be fewer small LMB this year, as they had less cover. We'll see.
Last edited by anthropic; 03/31/21 08:56 AM.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,499 Likes: 267
Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
|
Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,499 Likes: 267 |
Quote - jpsdad Does anyone have any thoughts on how to cull to try to retain this population structure over time? For example, assuming growth, what is the best culling method to ensure that the population doesn't get over-numbered in any one of these size classes? I should have posted the rest of the previous thread in my prior post - here it is wrt culling method. If the only method of removal is hook and line then you need to consider the catchibility issue which underlies your question about genetics. Catachability is a genetic trait and only using angling to cull can give negative results - see below. Angling removes the most catchable fish. Look for threads here on catchability. The info is here as is the research. Here are a couple with links http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=274175&page=1http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthrea...=catchability&Search=true#Post200220http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthrea...=catchability&Search=true#Post260622 Electroshock is the best culling method I know to avoid the catachability problem long term.
Last edited by ewest; 04/01/21 09:44 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 234 Likes: 17
|
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 234 Likes: 17 |
Last night on Pond Boss Live, Bob said an 8" bass in the springtime is a year old and should be 12 to 14 inches...cull it! And worse, the 8" bass will be eating all the little 1/2 to 1 inch bluegills, robbing the future food for the larger bass.
Dan McWhirter DannyMac
|
1 member likes this:
anthropic |
|
|
|
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,864 Likes: 298
|
OP
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,864 Likes: 298 |
Good post, Eric. I wonder if periodic stocking of aggressive F1 and/or N LMB might also be helpful in maintaining catchability.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,864 Likes: 298
|
OP
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,864 Likes: 298 |
Last night on Pond Boss Live, Bob said an 8" bass in the springtime is a year old and should be 12 to 14 inches...cull it! And worse, the 8" bass will be eating all the little 1/2 to 1 inch bluegills, robbing the future food for the larger bass. Yes indeed. I need to harvest those little guys, though it goes against the grain to take out a five incher. Probably the smartest move is to cut off their tails then throw back to make an easy meal for the bigguns.
Last edited by anthropic; 04/01/21 02:17 PM.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,151 Likes: 491
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
|
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,151 Likes: 491 |
Since LMB are often over abundant this is a VERY good idea posted by 'anthropic' """the smartest move is to cut off their tails then throw(them) back to make an easy meal for the bigguns.""" Plus this method can be used for any overabundant fish in the pond and this helps somewhat to reduce the tendency for creating hook smart fish. As per ewest above - too bad small LMB do not readily enter traps which makes them mostly available via angling and electroshocking and maybe seining.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/01/21 04:08 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,864 Likes: 298
|
OP
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,864 Likes: 298 |
As per ewest above - too bad small LMB do not readily enter traps which makes them mostly available via angling and electroshocking and maybe seining. I figure that only crazy bass are in seine.
Last edited by anthropic; 04/01/21 04:29 PM.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
|
3 members like this:
GunBoss, FishinRod, Steve_ |
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,151 Likes: 491
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
|
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,151 Likes: 491 |
When you use a seine in the beach area one is most likely mostly catching young of year (YOY) bass and not very many larger bass in the size range of 12"-15". . That is why I used the 'maybe seining' in my post. LMB are not the easiest fish to efficiently reduce their numbers. This is probably why there is a beginning trend to use tiger Musky or northern pike and maybe chain pickerel to use predation help thin bass.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/01/21 06:59 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 517 Likes: 38
|
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 517 Likes: 38 |
As per ewest above - too bad small LMB do not readily enter traps which makes them mostly available via angling and electroshocking and maybe seining. I figure that only crazy bass are in seine.
"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." - Donny Miller
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,499 Likes: 267
Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
|
Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,499 Likes: 267 |
Seining can help especially depending on how and with what you seine. It is very hard to catch LMB over 8 inches in a seine.
|
|
|
Moderated by Bill Cody, Bruce Condello, catmandoo, Chris Steelman, Dave Davidson1, esshup, ewest, FireIsHot, Omaha, Sunil, teehjaeh57
|
|