Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Denialct, hansdrohh, hansdroh, Benny carnivore, Cohiba767
17,780 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics39,784
Posts541,617
Members17,780
Most Online3,583
Jan 15th, 2020
Top Posters
esshup 26,763
ewest 21,016
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 14,288
Who's Online Now
7 members (Dave Davidson1, RAH, curtm, teehjaeh57, Shorty, Sunil, blavis), 283 guests, and 119 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 524
Likes: 64
G
Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 524
Likes: 64
Hey I would probably take another batch by the week of the 27th, with slightly cooler weather we may be able to collect them a few days longer, bigger batch. I will stay in touch


All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
Originally Posted by SetterGuy
Don’t forget about me! I get this stupid boot off October 14th. I will be a free man at that point. I’ll be able to drive myself somewhere! Other than driving my wife crazy! I will still want a crawdad or two. grin

I haven't forgotten you. The only thing keeping you from getting a good batch is it they stop coming to the trap. Stay in touch. It sounds like Jake wants some around next week. That will allow a good batch for him and I'll put you on the list for the next round. I hate to keep them in the trap more than a couple weeks for fear that they will start to eat each other, but 3 weeks might work OK. I hope to be on vacation during your trapping time frame and should be able to collect a fair amount in 2 weeks time. I am still getting 20-25 per night in the 3-4" range, but cannot do it nightly.

Good to hear the boot's coming off soon...my dad has one on right now for a broken heel and is about to drive my mom to dangerous levels. lol


Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 67
Likes: 5
J
Offline
J
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 67
Likes: 5
Quarter Acre, I missed this post last year. If you happen to be getting rid of more in 2021 let me know. Im near Leavenworth,KS and would be happy to drive down. If I read correctly you're near Sedalia?


3 acre pond NE KS Pond Boss subscriber
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
Hey John,

I have one other taker at this point for 2021 and suspect there will be plenty to go around. Spring-time will tell. Stay in touch. If the first round of trap soakings go well, I'll be sure to post to this thread. Fighting off the local craw-eaters may be difficult as its' been many months since I fed them (lol), but the PB members will take dibs. And, yes I'm near Sedalia, Mo.


Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 67
Likes: 5
J
Offline
J
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 67
Likes: 5
That sounds great. I will be looking to add them to my pond, but they are good table fare. Thank you


3 acre pond NE KS Pond Boss subscriber
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
I will be putting the craw trap in this weekend to see if they are active enough to be trapped. I have seen a few milling about. Wish me luck.

Currently, I have two takers for 2021 should trapping be successful (Snakebite and John Kruid). I don't think I have left anybody out. Post here if you are still interested.

I'll post this weekends results so we can, hopefully, start planning some craw transfers.

Last edited by Quarter Acre; 03/19/21 12:06 PM.

Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
I have a decision to make. I trapped 18 craws this weekend (probably some in the trap from last night too), but 5 or 6 of them are carrying eggs. I rarely see any small crawdads milling about. My guess is that they are being eating by my smaller fish. I am contemplating putting the females with eggs back in the pond so that can create that small class of forage. I have never trapped this early in the season hence the berried females. I suspect I will be turning them back to the pond. This will slow the build up of craw numbers, but if rates continue, which they should with warming weather, I will have about 40-50 craws ready for someone this weekend. They are 3 to 4" long.


Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,587
Likes: 205
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,587
Likes: 205
Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
I have a decision to make. I trapped 18 craws this weekend (probably some in the trap from last night too), but 5 or 6 of them are carrying eggs.

QA, Most all of the females were inseminated last fall. Most females that are not presently carrying eggs will be exuding them later this spring. Northern crays tend to follow this Fall-mate Spring-Spawn schedule. Removing females now could greatly inhibit the numbers of crawfish this fall (Though it is possible standing weights would be comparable either way). For folks that take your crays home, females not carrying eggs will likely yield them later. A single female that is already inseminated has the potential to establish a population if it is able to raise its offspring to the 3rd instar.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
Thanks for the vocabulary challenge JP...I had to look up "instar". I am going to stick with my bet that the vast majority of the 3rd instar craws become forage for the smaller HBG and return the berried mothers to the pond. I never (almost never) see any craws smaller than 2.5 inches in the traps or at the pond edges during feeding time (Yes, I feed them). I take this to mean that once they get larger than that I do not have large enough fish in the pond that target them.

JP, what do you mean by "Though it is possible standing weights would be comparable either way"?

If I leave the berried females in the pond until the youth are on there own (third instar as I have learned) and those YOY get eaten, all the while trapping out the males and non-berried females...my standing weight should go down. That is my goal after all.


Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,587
Likes: 205
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,587
Likes: 205
Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
JP, what do you mean by "Though it is possible standing weights would be comparable either way"?

If I leave the berried females in the pond until the youth are on there own (third instar as I have learned) and those YOY get eaten, all the while trapping out the males and non-berried females...my standing weight should go down. That is my goal after all.

Probably would go down but maybe not as much you may think. The water is capable of sustaining a limiting weight of crayfish. So if you divide that weight by the maximum potential growth by fall (for a typical individual) ... then you have the number of crayfish it would take to fill out the carrying capacity at the maximum weight per individual. Brown et al. were able to grow northerns to 700 lbs/acre in an unfed-unfertilized pond in 5 months. Their size at the end of the season of course depends on the number of juveniles stocked in the spring. So stock too many, they will reach that limiting weight sooner and only grow by attrition (usually by cannibalism of molting crays). So as you can imagine, there is a goldie-locks stocking rate that allows the crayfish to grow maximally until harvest. When the numbers are below this, production will decrease. So it all depends on survival, but this much I will mention. Crayfish can produce way ... way more offspring than is required to replace themselves. As long as a sufficient number survive they could fill the carrying capacity or replace their spring standing weight of adults by fall.

****Bump****

If you delay removing crayfish until the middle of May ... almost all of the females will have released their young or be berried with eggs or young. In other words, if you would like to retain all the YOY delaying the removal of crays until then would ensure very few inseminated females would slip through the cracks. This would maximize your YOY production. Those taking your crayfish home in this case ... would have to wait until next year in order to get YOY production (though small percentage could produce a second brood ... but this would be the exception and not the rule).

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/24/21 10:35 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
That's a mouth full JP! Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it.

If I understand the point that should be taken, I should remove all the craws I can trap, and remover them without prejudice.

I know there will be plenty of berried females that do not get trapped. Maybe these will satisfy my thoughts on creating the smaller forage.

So far I have about 30 in the cage with 10 or so carrying eggs. I don't know how long they will carry the eggs, but they should find a new home soon. I had a couple PB members inquire about them late last year and I would love to get them in the taking first. They have been PM'd, but I have yet to connect with them. Under the circumstances and the difficulty to plan a firm pick-up....any takers for this weekend?

I have also been trapping 10-15 bullfrog tadpoles a day (big ones with smallish rear legs). I have been discarding those to the creek, but will start saving them if anyone is so inclined to come get them...let me know!


Fish on!,
Noel
1 member likes this: jpsdad
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,587
Likes: 205
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,587
Likes: 205
QA,

I think your crayfish are amazing. It is clear to me, from your observations of the HBG, that they are supporting your pond's forage substantially. It's just that they have been too much of a good thing, that's all. You'll find that goldilocks balance when you fill that gap that is missing (a predator that will seek and eat 4" crayfish). The goldilocks amount of that predator will allow enough adults to survive to replenish their standing weight. Forage production may decline in this case if you don't replace the lost production with other prolific reproducers. Crayfish are high energy forage ... even better than BG according to one reference.

My sense is that your pond never reaches its carrying capacity of crayfish and that they grow maximally. So it works like this. Way more spawn is produced than would be required to replace the adults ... but they are continually cropped never attaining the carrying capacity. Under such a scenario, the pond can produce a greater weight of crayfish in one season than the pond could carry were there no predators. So instead of stunting they continue to grow all season providing forage along the way.

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/23/21 11:10 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


1 member likes this: DannyMac
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 524
Likes: 64
G
Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 524
Likes: 64
Quarter Acre, I caught a few CC Sun, the first ones from the pond, were stocked as up to 6 in fingerlings 2 yrs ago this May, the biggest one weighed 2.6 lbs. point is I checked all of their stomach to see what they were eating and found young crawfish in nearly half of them, they were much smaller then the crawfish I got from you so I must have an already established herd in my pond.


All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
Originally Posted by gehajake
Quarter Acre, I caught a few CC Sun, the first ones from the pond, were stocked as up to 6 in fingerlings 2 yrs ago this May, the biggest one weighed 2.6 lbs. point is I checked all of their stomach to see what they were eating and found young crawfish in nearly half of them, they were much smaller then the crawfish I got from you so I must have an already established herd in my pond.

The craws form my pond are from an alien planet and they reproduce like it's going out of style....I cannot be responsible for what they do to your BOW! lol - I'm very glad to here they are doing well and producing a good forage base. It's interesting that all the crawdads I trapped from the creek for my initial pond stocking were small, 1-3" long, but after two years in the pond...all I get in the traps are 3-5 inchers. I enjoy them and have learned a few things along the way and am happy to help others with my misfortune/good luck. I am, apparently, very good at growing craws and tadpoles...by default.


Fish on!,
Noel
1 member likes this: gehajake
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,587
Likes: 205
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,587
Likes: 205
QA,

The craws in the creek are likely over populated as there might be insufficient fish predators to keep their numbers low enough to get big. Crayfish grow amazingly fast but once they become adults (around 5 months) the growth thereafter is very slow. They can be grown to commercial lengths in one season. That is a minimum length of 3". They would rarely get larger than 5" Yours are most likely reaching lengths of 3.5 or greater in their first year. They grow slowly after that usually do not live past their second year.

3/4 in mesh will pass crayfish smaller than 3". If you are interested in capturing juveniles, insure your trap or net is of fine enough mesh to retain them. We had a crawdad pond for bait and it was stocked by nature with Orconectis Nais, the same crayfish that are growing in snrub's water. No predators so they stunted but made LOTS of 1.5" to 2" crays. We harvested them with a pool net just reaching as far as the handle would let us and then pulling it along bottom to the shore. You might try something like this in the June time frame when there should be a variety juveniles.

So I mentioned that they grow fast. Let's put that into perspective. You know how small the eggs are but lets start with the second molt when they are around .25 inches long. These are crayfish just leaving the protection of their mother when they weigh ~ 1.8 milligrams. In 5 months they can reach a mean weight of 18 grams OR 10,000 times their 2nd Instar weight!!! :0. To attain this weight they should be no denser than 1 crayfish for every 1.8 square feet. In a pond with no predators, where juveniles are stocked at this rate 24200/acre, there will be ~ 75% survival. So in a 1/4 acre unfertilized unfed crayfish production pond there should be 4538 adults weighing 179 lbs at seasons end. If we take 1/2 of those crayfish to females, then we have 2269 females. It is clear that without a harvest or predators there will be too many offspring to grow maximally the following year. If a person drained and reflooded the 1/4 production pond each year stocking only with enough inseminated females to stock the pond optimally with juveniles ... it would only require around 20 inseminated females. There are 113 times the number of females required (for reproduction purposes) at the end of the growing season.

Imagine if only 40 lbs of 3.5" females (692) over winter each yielding 300 2nd instar juveniles. This inoculates ~208,000 juvenile crayfish to the pond. By the time they reach 1" length there is potential they could weigh as much as 132 lbs. Even at 60% survival to 1" they would weigh 80 lbs even after providing forage (that was eaten by something) that is comparable to the original weight of females. But from 1" they have the potential to grow to a weight almost 64 times that. Of course they won't produce (80 x 64) 5000 lbs of crayfish because there will be attrition as they provide forage to your fish. Still, its simple to see that they can keep growing provided the support weight of 175 lbs (in the 1/4 acre pond) is not breached and because of this and their stellar rate of growth they can produce more forage than the pond could maintain all because something is cropping them. So only 700 females of the original 208,000 juveniles need to survive the gauntlet of predators. This is the challenge TJ faced in his ponds. Once a high density develops, even a small surviving (~0.33 %) proportion can sustain the population. I think you can get them under control if you have a modest weight of predators that will prefer the adults. If they do this, then the overwintering standing weight may be limited to the number your best escape cover can protect. If you are successful it will be an example others can follow to manage this forage.

For others contemplating large crayfish as forage, because of their high reproduction rate and fast growth do not give them a head start (like we do with minnows). Only introduce them after 2 or 3 years and provide a limited amount of escape cover to protect a limited weight of them from predators.

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/24/21 11:07 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
Fantastic information JP. This explains the situation that I am in very well. It also explains why the Missouri Conservation member told me to just stock a few (no more than 6 IIRC) berried females...I didn't listen! It was after their egg carrying period and I bucket stocked a couple hundred that year along with the FHM's and another hundred the following year along with fingerling gamefish.

The creek is not overpopulated, I think it the opposite as it dries up between rainy seasons leaving few shallow standing pools. This leaves them to the racoons, snakes, birds, etc. The spring season allows the creek to produce the early summer season's forage for the wildlife beyond the few fish that wash down from a couple neighboring ponds and swim up from the ever-wet Turkey Creek. I don't think the craws have enough time to get to full size, Winter season allows the creek to flow much more than not allowing the craws to grow some and reproduce to start the cycle again.

An observation I have made is that this week's spring trappings produced craws mostly 4-5" long whereas last falls final trappings were only producing smaller 3" ones. I assumed that I was getting all the larger ones taken out and, now, assume that they grew over the winter.


Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,587
Likes: 205
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,587
Likes: 205
After posting that I did wonder if maybe those were young crayfish you were collecting. Makes perfect sense. Also I agree that the 3" crays grew over winter to > 4". Most of these will die this year as was evidenced by their absence later last fall. I've attach a SS that simulates forage production under attrition. The rates of growth and the attrition rates are average but it gives you an idea. In your pond, I think mortality peaks when they are in the 1.5 to 2" lengths also growth rates are much larger in the beginning. A lower mortality in the beginning or a higher growth rate in the beginning would have the effect of increasing the forage produced. Please note that the mortality must be less than the growth or their could be extirpation. This is why some minimal escape cover is important. Note that there isn't a big difference between growth and mortality and the key to tipping the balance is the predation of the adults.

Attached Images
Crayfish forage.xlsx (25 KB, 105 downloads)
SHA1: 88d5960052d71faa3480219d8969652e4b0a1cf0
Last edited by jpsdad; 03/24/21 01:06 PM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,565
Likes: 262
F
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
F
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,565
Likes: 262
Thanks to everyone who is contributing to this thread.

I am pretty sure I have learned more about crayfish in this thread than I have in all of the other documents I have read combined!

1 member likes this: Augie
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
For just a thread to find new homes for my craws...it has developed an abundant amount of info!

BTW, the first week's trappings are destined to go to Kansas and my fish supplier may do some fish trading for some craws to put in his personal BOW. The next couple weeks may be spoken for, but don't hesitate to contact me and we'll grow a list.


Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 524
Likes: 64
G
Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 524
Likes: 64
Originally Posted by FishinRod
Thanks to everyone who is contributing to this thread.

I am pretty sure I have learned more about crayfish in this thread than I have in all of the other documents I have read combined!

Agreed, this thread is super interesting to me, I had no idea they had such prolific reproduction rates, in and old strip pit pond that we fish in, before the otters cleaned it out, the nicest, biggest, fattest LMB and BC we caught were always loaded with craw fish, even tho there were some bluegill in the pond, I know there weren't enough to sustain the growth we were seeing in the bass and crappie. I always wondered how craw fish could even maintain a population with so much predation.
Which was the reason why I wanted to make sure I had a start of them in my new pond, and the most luck I had catching bass was on a Strike King imitation craw rigged on a 3/8oz or so weedless jighead, we could go out and just catch a mess of LMB everytime with that rig, again, before the otters wiped out all the big ones.


All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 67
Likes: 5
J
Offline
J
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 67
Likes: 5
I agree, I gleaned quite a bit of knowledge from this thread. Can’t wait to pick up the craws on Sunday. Gonna add some more rock piles in the pond this week. There really isn’t much in there for rocks, but there are lots of brush piles and sunken logs. I’ll also be putting some in my overflow pond that is much smaller and void of fish at the moment.


3 acre pond NE KS Pond Boss subscriber
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 938
Likes: 178
A
Offline
A
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 938
Likes: 178
Originally Posted by gehajake
the most luck I had catching bass was on a Strike King imitation craw rigged on a 3/8oz or so weedless jighead,

The two best artificial lures that exist for catching LMB are a rubber worm and a pig-n-jig. I'd put the pig-n-jig at the top of that short list.

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,587
Likes: 205
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,587
Likes: 205
The intrigue is only beginning. I am keen to understand the progress made in control using the CC and boosting the panfish population. Metrics might be in order to guage progress. So it would be interesting to keep records of the weight of crayfish trapped, fishing effort (time of trap in water), number of traps set, and dates of efforts. With this kind of information you can quantify the effects of the management efforts to control them. A similar track may be to track vegetation changes and/or water quality parameters like DO or secchi visibility. Thanks for this thread QA. I appreciate both how and what I am learning from your experience.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
OP Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 87
JP, I can say that I took out over 1500 crawdads last year. They probably averaged 4" long and the single trap was in the pond, on average, 4 days a week between late April and the end of October. The trap bait (fish pellets) was changed in the evening and not checked again until the next evening (24 hour soaks). The secchi visibility stayed between 10 and 16 inches all last year. It showed no signs of getting better as the season progressed as it just jumped back and forth with the blooms and rain inflows. The pond blooms can be very heavy (very heavy) and certainly affects the visibility. It has been about 14-16" so far this year with no aeration turned on and one bloom already that has disappeared, mostly due to spring rain inflows and muddier waters. As far as vegetation goes, the pickerel weed, arrow head, & thalia dealbata all thrived and spread out slowly, but nicely last year. All other submerged vegetation is non-existent. FA only grows in the top few inches of the water column and has not matted and floated around since the first two years of the pond (about the time the craw population explosion). The overhanging grasses, hanging lily baskets, shoreline rocks, and the dock floats all have FA on them, but it is only at the surface. DO levels have always been low in my opinion. I did not take many DO readings last year, but they mirrored the previous year when sampled...4 to 6ppm (Better at the surface and diminishes as you get deeper).

Unfortunately for the pond hobby, I am working more than ever and have another hobby (auto restorations) that takes up my time too. Taking a scientific approach to the pond will be a bit hap-hazard at best this year. Maybe you (JP) can (I know you can) make some estimates on the above info should you care to venture some rudimentary conclusions to last years efforts.


Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 524
Likes: 64
G
Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 524
Likes: 64
The two best artificial lures that exist for catching LMB are a rubber worm and a pig-n-jig. I'd put the pig-n-jig at the top of that short list.[/quote]

That's it, the name escaped me at the time, but that's exactly what I was talking about, the pig and jig using the Strike King craws, they look so realistic, I catch a ton of bass on them.
My biggest problem I have with rubber worms, I get tons of hits, even more with the rubber salamanders, but I have to let them have it for just a little longer before I set the hook or they just have a grip on the tail, inevitably I get too many deep hooks that are terminal for the fish and most of my bass I catch and release so I have shied away from using rubber worms as much.

Last edited by gehajake; 03/25/21 07:54 AM.

All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Recent Posts
Proud moment
by anthropic - 06/30/22 02:53 PM
Flooded Gast 0523
by Quarter Acre - 06/30/22 02:18 PM
Making a beach
by esshup - 06/30/22 12:03 PM
Building Docks in Northern Waters for Ice-Out
by esshup - 06/30/22 12:00 PM
Cutrine Plus and triplod carp
by esshup - 06/30/22 11:57 AM
Congratulations on the new State Record!!
by Heppy - 06/30/22 11:47 AM
Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking
by Heppy - 06/30/22 11:42 AM
Large Tilapia displacing BG from nests
by jludwig - 06/30/22 11:39 AM
Orangespotted Sunifsh
by jpsdad - 06/30/22 07:46 AM
What did you do at your pond today?
by gehajake - 06/30/22 07:00 AM
Lots of forage, stop or keep feeding
by Snipe - 06/29/22 04:25 PM
How to dig out a settlement pond?
by John Fitzgerald - 06/29/22 02:56 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Male RES
Male RES
by Shorty, June 27
New Record Bluegill
New Record Bluegill
by Theo Gallus, June 10
pond 6
pond 6
by Stressless, May 10
Molly Ann surveys her new Puppydom
Molly Ann surveys her new Puppydom
by Mongos Pond, January 28
Fry
Fry
by CityDad, January 20
Baldcypress
Baldcypress
by Stressless, January 11

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5