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I have just Build a new Pond along I-70 Corridor in Central Kansas in the Smoky Hills region. I own 80 acres and my pond is about 5 acres total. Clay and Topsoil bottom-Earthen dam, with about 2.5 acres of deep water and a 2.5 acre wetland of undisturbed soil. I have a 48" drain style tube with 32" pipe outflow system. There are four big holes in the deep end that will have a depth of 18-20 ft with the remaining areas 6-9 foot. The wetland end will be 5 foot to 1 foot. Springs are running (even during our drought right now) and pond is coming up about 8 inches per week at the moment. Watershed is about 300 acres and 90% or more comes off pasture grass. Pond has multiple large and small man-made fish structures made of pallets, Concrete Blocks, Tractor Tires, Scrap Concrete, Concrete Culverts, and Porcupine PVC Balls. It also has many Contours and depth changes. I have added a 60 tire spawning bed area and tires are filled with River Sand and Pea Gravel. Another semi load of sand was spread in about 4 foot of water next to a deep hole on a shelf. Wetland end has natural wetland plants like smartweed and cattails in natural wet soil areas from existing springs. Dam is in the process of being rip-rapped now. There will be a beach area too and I can Imagine some of that sand will be used by fish for spawning too.

Goal: Diverse Specie Fishing Pond That is Balanced. Emphasis on Diverse. It will be well monitored by Fishing and Snorkeling. Harvest will be Based on Populations with slot limits.

I have found this site very informative and in-depth. My plan is to stock and build up large amounts of bait and then introduce my predators the next two years. Most Fish will be Purchased and the others will be caught from other sources (Balanced Private Ponds).

I am looking for some critics to look at my Plan and give some ideas on Initial Populations. Some Fish Farms say 200/ac predators per acre and others 100/ac with 500/ac Panfish. Some recommendations on her are as low as 25/ac My Predators will have little to no reproduction in my pond and I want to have Yellow Perch and Crappies (act like both panfish and predators).

I am most likely going to stick to having these species but with my 5 acre (2.5 acres deep and 2.5 acres shallow) do I base it on 5 acres or 2.5?

I am thinking Panfish (Bigger BG & RES) will have their first year of Reproduction before the predator species are eating them, since predators will be stocked at a small size (less than 5 inches) and most likely be concentrating on minnows the first year.

I love Redears, so they may be a Touch High!!!!

So comment away!

Fatheads 50 lbs Spring 21
Golden Shiners 50 lbs Spring 21
Misquito Minnows 1000 Spring 21
Native Minnows ? Spring 21

Coppernose Bluegills 300 Summer 21
Bluegills 500+ 100 BIG Summer 21
Readears 500+ 150 BIG Summer 21
Longear/ OS Sunfish 200 ANY SZ Summer 21
Yellow Perch 500 SMALL Summer 21

Green Sunfish 200 SMALL Summer 22
Black Crappie 150 ANY SIZE Summer 22
Walleye 300 SMALL Spring 22
Smallmouth Bass 200 SMALL Spring 22
Wiper 100 SMALL Spring 22
Channel Cat 200 Summer 22

White Bass 50 LARGE Spring 23
Gizzard Shad??? 25-50 Large Summer 23
Largemouth Bass 50 Large Summer 23

Thank You!


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Welcome to PB! Sounds like a really nice project you have in the works there.

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I can't help ya on the amount of fish to put in. I will welcome ya from one Kansas fella to another. I do know its ezer to add than to remove.


The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
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Are you sure you can find , identify and acquire all those species in the numbers stated , size and at the right time for stocking ?

Just a couple comments - gambusia - mosquito fish will interfere with the newly stocked FH and minnows.

At your location I would skip CNBG and use regular BG.

That is a lot of predator numbers - some of the predator species in ponds do not do well over time together. I would reduce the predator #s by half +-.

Learn about crappie in ponds before using them.

Learn about GShad in ponds before using them.
















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Thanks for input....Knew that about the Gambusia and Fatheads. And predator Numbers.... thought it was high too! I appreciate it.

CNBG are sold around here but after researching(We have Ice Cover) may be a waste of money!

Thank you!
Steve


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Donatello,

Another "Welcome!" from a Kansas guy.

The pond you have constructed sounds awesome!

Your goal of a diverse pond is good, but IMHO you are going to be juggling way too many balls to have much control over the end product in 2024 and 2025.

A 5-acre pond is bigger than most of the member ponds on Pond Boss. However, your pond still has an upper limit for the amount of biomass as fish that can be supported.

Gizzard shad in Kansas are dicey. They can grow larger in your pond than a Kansas-sized big bass can eat.

Green sunfish have a life cycle similar to bluegill, but a much larger mouth. They will compete to some degree for forage with your top predators.

ewest is a good expert to heed for pond advice. "Learn about crappie" is his diplomatic way of saying they could be a big problem in your pond. (I am NOT an expert, so I can be a little more direct. When I say something stupid, there is usually an actual expert to come along behind me and make a clarification.)

There is a chance in your pond, that you could end up with 90% of your fish biomass as 10-12" gizzard shad, stunted white crappie, and thousands of small but voracious green sunfish. I doubt that is your ultimate goal.

If you state your primary goal, and a secondary goal, then there are definitely a lot of experts on Pond Boss that could help you achieve those goals.


Good luck on your project!

Rod

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I will NOT be putting any white crappies in my pond..I have seen whites go crazy in ponds and do not want that. Blacks only...

I also agree with you on the Chance of problems with the Gizzard Shad and have seen that issue come up in conversation a bunch on here. Glad you are nice enough to help and throw out some warnings about the stuff I worry about!

Thank you for your well thought out information and time taken to comment. It means a lot.

Should have Clarified Black Crappies (yes they too can be a problem)

Should have also Clarified this Pond Will Be Fished Heavily and small fish harvested regularly.

Thanks,
Steve


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New spring-fed 5 acre pond that will be Fished Heavily.

I assume there is a huge smile on your face all day long!

Keep this thread going with your actual stocking inputs - and of course the follow-up fishing results.

Best wishes,
Rod

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Steve, first, welcome from yet another Kansan to PondBoss!
Now, with that said, I am having some trouble with the number of differing species listed and I see potential problems with several of those species-together-that may/will limit potential growth structure.
I will be point-blank honest in saying I've seen this attempted many times and it ends in disappointment because growth was less than desirable.
It would take 50 acres to support what you have listed and expect success with that.
One example here is 200 SMB (small) in 22 and 50 LMB (large) in 23. That will be the only year class of SMB and I strongly believe the smallies will suffer rather quickly.
The complexity of this is such I don't really see a way to predict the outcome.
I'd offer further advice but I really can't as I don't see an outcome that is better than disappointment.

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Thank you, that's why I asked. I can leave out Lmb and Hsb and Wb for later at what rate would you have or reduce my predator fish to per acre? Here's the thinking I have, shoot it down, my chosen predator species most likely will not reproduce so do i stock heavy and remove them or stock light and add bigger ones if I am lacking them layer$$. Just want to know how many mature big predators can inhabit an acre... my pond is not going to be a normal ks pond i assure you that. I am on spring break this week and would like to chat...especially about your minnows!
Steve


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It's not so much a question of "How many big predators can inhabit an acre".. The question should be "How much biomass should be present in forage per predator"... each pound of predator requires 10lbs of forage consumed to "grow" a pound.. maintenance may be 15 pounds to hold that value. That's 5,000 FHM per pound of Predator. This is where I think the list above would put you in trouble.
The 500 YP and numerous sunfish will work over "some" of the FHM reproduction.
On the 500 BG I would suggest 3-5" BG (sexually mature) only if planning predator heavy so they all spawn this year-hundreds of thousands of new hatch for predators yet to come. Depending on size of YP you stock, if they would potentially spawn spring of 22 then you have even more forage choices for newly stocked predators but I don't want to get too far ahead here not knowing if YP will do well there, probably will but I hate to assume without more pond detail and water source.
You can play with several of the predators you have listed but the numbers supportable in reality are quite a ways lower than what you have listed.
I think WAE and HSB can be added at any time in the future but if adding both I'd hold back to 10-15/acre for each of the two..same rule applies here in that they (each fish) is going to need to eat somewhere in the 10-15lbs of forage to grow 1lb so that's around 5,000 to 6,000 POUNDS of forage just for the WAE and HSB numbers you have listed-to grow to one pound..
You see what I'm seeing yet?? :-))

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For sure, if start with let' s say..
6 lbs fall of 2020 fatheads
4 lbs golden shiners
50 lbs each of gs and fh minnows spring 2021
And panfish bg and res in 2020. Then said predators under 5 inches in 2021 what do you think would go??? As far as general predators in 2022?
Are you considering yp as predators or baitfish?
I realize fish farms are marketing fish.
Should i be considering my pond a 2.5 acre pond or a 5 acre pond?
My idea is 2.5 acres primo baitfish habitat and 2.5 acres primo gamefish habitat..
i may be wrong, that is why i am posting.. my pond is Not the norm.
Not trying to be negative just creating conversation i hope you want to be involved in!!!


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I guess my question after the fact is how many lbs of bait will 110 lbs of minnows and 1000 panfish produce before predators are introduced 1 year later those predators being at a small size, similar size....??? I can eat a 12 inch skinny walleye or smallmouth or 8 inch yellow perch....


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SNIPE I would love to chat with you and pick your brain. I looked at your website and am interested ! You are not to far away!


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Nope, straight down I-70..
If you are going to go a year with forage only, 5lbs/ac of FHM will fill the pond this summer. You still have the requirement of supporting plankton for the FHM and GSH I don't feel it's necessary to stock 110lbs of FHM.
Your WAE, YP, SMB would be fall stockers, or possibly the smallies next spring.

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I would rethink the crappies in only 5 acres.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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There are some very good examples of quality RES /SMB ponds with FH and another minnow type and even a few with that plus HSB and another low offspring lepomis (other than BG). You have options especially if feeding. YP and WE might also work in small numbers. As a general rule the more species the harder to manage because the interactions are so large and unknown within a closed environment.

Don't worry about the amount of FH to start (maybe 25 lbs) but don't put in the GSH with the FH to start. Let the FH have time to reproduce before adding any fish other than another minnow type. You can start FH anytime you have water that is 30 days old (assuming its not frozen). If you have 1/2 acre of water and ok temps then add the FH. Any other plan you decide on can be done on top of FH without issue.

Last edited by ewest; 03/11/21 11:55 AM.















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If you stock the LMB in there, over time the LMB will out compete the SMB for habitat and the SMB might be extirpated from the pond. Don't assume that the predators won't reproduce in the pond. SMB and LMB will unless you stock advanced sizes of the fish in the Spring of the year when the sex of the fish can be positively Identified. All it takes is one male to throw that single sex stocking plan out of whack.....

Black Crappie or White Crappie, you can still have problems.

I'd not stock the Green Sunfish. They can get out of hand quickly, out compete many of the other fish, especially without an apex predator to limit their numbers, and can eat small fish as if you stocked 5"-7" LMB in there.....

Unless you like eating catfish, you don't "have to" stock the CC and they will compete directly with the top apex predators for food once they are 3# or bigger.

I'd recommend NOT stocking the following:
Mosquito Fish
Coppernose
Crappie
Gizzard Shad
Green Sunfish
White Bass (the Hybrid Striped Bass will utilize the same niche in the habitat)
and maybe the CC.

If you stock Bluegills, you will have to stock LMB to control their numbers and would be using the SMB as a "bonus" fish.

My money is on that you will see reproduction of all the rest of the fish in the pond with the exception of 2, possibly 3 species - Wipers, Walleye and Channel Cats. You will see reproduction of the CC if you have places where they can hollow out a spawning cavity or if you put barrels in there for them to spawn.

For stocking rate, your pond is 5 acres.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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Well, I have learned a lot from all of the great PB Forum Members, and many hours of research, and some great conversations with a few different Fisheries Biologist, and Bob Lusk's Facebook Live Sessions. Here's my Update. I originally wanted too many fish all at once and now have moved away from that idea and am stocking less Fish Numbers and trying to stock the species spread out over time in somewhat of a planned manner. I also have decided against Largemouth Bass. I know some of my ideas are OUT THERE but that is the way want to go. Pond Goal is: A Diverse Fishery.

Pond Stats as of today with rough stocking season.

Pond Dig completed Summer 2020 2.5 acres Deep Water 2.5 acres shallow wetland less than 5 ft.
Filled by Run-off and Spring Water. Finished out this droughty winter only down 2 ft.
Max Depth 19 ft.

Fall 2020
3 lbs Fatheads and 2 lbs Golden Shiners

Spring 2021
40lbs Baitfish Mix of Fatheads, Bluntnose, and few Red Shiners
20 Creek Chubs
70 Longear Sunfish of Mixed sizes
800 Bluegills (300 Adults 500 3inch)
600 Redear Sunfish (300 Adults 300 3inch)

Fall 2021
85 Walleye 12-15 inchers
500 Gambusia

Spring 2022
30 Yellow Perch (300 more coming in a week or two).
1 Small Northern Pike named Frank.
I am going to refresh the Baitfish Population also. 20 lbs Planned

Planned Fall Stocking 2022
50-75 Smallmouth Bass
25 Walleyes
25 Wipers (might hold off on these another year)

Species Caught to Date:
Every specie that was stocked has been caught except the Yellow Perch and Frank the Northern Pike. I also have removed 1 Largemouth Bass, 3 Bullheads, and few hundred green sunfish that must have come from upstream. Every fish has been fat and healthy and showing good signs of growth. 8-9 inch BG and RES.
Bite has went from awesome to poor with these east winds and cold fronts.
Average Sizes Caught in spring of 2022
BG- 5-9 inch
RES- 5-9 inch
LES- 4-5 inch
GSH- 5-6 inch
WE- 14 inch
Creek Chubs- 6-9 inch
GSF- 3-7 inch
BH- 3-5 inch



Other: Lots of Ducks using the pond on their northern migration this spring. Fought off 6 cormorants. Have a nesting pair of Canada Geese. All sorts of shorebirds visiting. Bullfrog Tadpoles are everywhere.

Concerns/Road Bumps (looking down the road): Green Sunfish (they are in every pond around here), Filamentous Algae, and Possible Bluegill Population Explosion with small population of large predators at the moment. I guess we will see with BG.

Upcoming Work:
Still laying Rip-rap on dam. Dock project should start this Summer (lumber prices are through the roof). I want a Texas Hunter Fish Feeder.

Anyhow hope you all are well out there in Pond Boss Land.

Steve


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Northern pike named Frank. LOL i loved it we have a named fish also. Koi named Fernando. Where did you get the pike from?


The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
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He was a refugee from another war torn state. That is all I can Legally disclose.


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I love your efforts to establish a cool water species [I manage several myself] but introduction of LMB and BG will likely serve as management issues down the road. Limited gape predators [SMB, WE, HSB] will struggle to manage BG population, and LMB will outcompete SMB over time which will require supplemental stocking which get expensive as SMB are not always readily available. Whenever a client wants to establish a cool water species fishery the first thing I check is watershed for existing upstream fisheries. If they exist I try to manage the expectations on the client on success of fishery. Through intensive management of BG and LMB [angling, trapping, seining] a balance can be achieved, but the continuous management effort is a reality...and gets exhausting. Esshup and Snipe cover a lot of this ground in their replies above, just reiterating data derived from my fishery experiences to help manage your expectations. Hope some of this is helpful and good luck whatever you decide to do.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Teejaeh57,
I have the same concerns/ worries as you stated...I guess my solution to BG overpopulation is the knife. I Am a guy that always has a slip bobber rig with a tungsten ice jig ready to go at all times. I have been known to filet a cooler full of gills or crappie in the 5-8 inch range. Going to put 18 Black Crappie under knife tonight. Did 135 stunted crappie out of a friends pond this week 7 inchers.
I hope to keep largemouth out for time being and i will just have to see if the WE SMB and YP can keep up on BG fry. If not i will cull BG and add some more WE and maybe CC. As always thanks for your input, it means a lot. I am working with Snipe and he knows I kinda bend/break some of the stocking rules. I am stocking numbers kinda on low side to let stuff grow/fill in under his and you all's advice.
Who knows it may work or it may be a disaster. I am going to keep you all posted. As always, every comment is appreciated good and bad. They all make me think harder and research more...as of now my pond experiment is just starting. I can live with any outcome....because the ducks/should come in.
My biggest experiment in this whole thing is what bait will end up being left.
Bluntnose, golden shiners, gambusia, red shiners, creek chubs, maybe even some fatheads.

Steve


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I just recently bought a property out east of you a ways, only 1.5 acres. wasn't sure what was in it until we started fishing it. I have been pulling out bass in the 2-3lbs range, blue gill and to my surprise some crappies with a few in the 12-13 inch range. Not sure how long they have been in there but to my knowledge they have been in the pond at least 3/4 years when the last owners son stopped fishing it. I am a bit worried as all the doom and gloom talk about them in small pond but i have to say i am enjoying the heck out of catching them and will do so until i end up with a bunch of stunted fish.

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PamonaJ, having crappie in smaller ponds is generally considered to be not advisable against a background of what kind of management could be necessary to achieve one's goals of say, 12-13" plus crappie.

Your pond may have achieved some kind of natural balance that allows for some crappie to grow large, so enjoy it while you can.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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