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Agree with skipping the aeration on this one. My bait pond is only slightly larger than the pond described here, and about 4' max depth - no aeration.
The BG/HBG in there came out from under ~8 weeks of ice cover with no apparent ill effects.
I do feed my bait pond, for the sole reason of growing the fish to appropriate size to use as catfish bait.
I have no intention to do any hook and line fishing in that pond, and will be removing 50-100 fish on a weekend that I'm running lines on the Missouri River.

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This is not optima but it's all my local feed store has



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highflyer and Augie,

I think I understand why the pellet feeding could cause problems in a tiny pond.

I don't understand why the aerator is probably a detrimental item?

(I have followed snrub's micro-pond posts. He had great success growing out RES and HSB last year in a 0.1 acre pond with aeration.)

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Originally Posted by highflyer
....

You will understand sooner or later. Sadly some lessons just have to be learned the hard way.

....

highflyer, you made a concerted effort to help. Sometimes the school of hard knocks is the best and only teacher.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Originally Posted by highflyer
....

You will understand sooner or later. Sadly some lessons just have to be learned the hard way.

....

highflyer, you made a concerted effort to help. Sometimes the school of hard knocks is the best and only teacher.


Yep, sometimes someone wants to be told what they want to hear and not listen to what they don't want to hear. Mother Nature will tell them what they don't want to hear in no uncertain terms.


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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Originally Posted by highflyer
....

You will understand sooner or later. Sadly some lessons just have to be learned the hard way.

....

highflyer, you made a concerted effort to help. Sometimes the school of hard knocks is the best and only teacher.
Originally Posted by esshup
Originally Posted by jpsdad
Originally Posted by highflyer
....

You will understand sooner or later. Sadly some lessons just have to be learned the hard way.

....

highflyer, you made a concerted effort to help. Sometimes the school of hard knocks is the best and only teacher.


Yep, sometimes someone wants to be told what they want to hear and not listen to what they don't want to hear. Mother Nature will tell them what they don't want to hear in no uncertain terms.



I understand, but three fisheries(called two more) told me I'd be fine stocking CNBG and FHM at the same time.
Up above, Anthropic's info conflicts with Highflyer because Highflyer says only one predator but Anthtropic says I should/could have two (BG and one bass).

So now the question is whom do I follow?

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Originally Posted by trophybg
Originally Posted by jpsdad
Originally Posted by highflyer
....

You will understand sooner or later. Sadly some lessons just have to be learned the hard way.

....

highflyer, you made a concerted effort to help. Sometimes the school of hard knocks is the best and only teacher.
Originally Posted by esshup
Originally Posted by jpsdad
Originally Posted by highflyer
....

You will understand sooner or later. Sadly some lessons just have to be learned the hard way.

....

highflyer, you made a concerted effort to help. Sometimes the school of hard knocks is the best and only teacher.


Yep, sometimes someone wants to be told what they want to hear and not listen to what they don't want to hear. Mother Nature will tell them what they don't want to hear in no uncertain terms.



I understand, but three fisheries(called two more) told me I'd be fine stocking CNBG and FHM at the same time.
Up above, Anthropic's info conflicts with Highflyer because Highflyer says only one predator but Anthtropic says I should/could have two (BG and one bass).

So now the question is whom do I follow?

Bluegills aren't considered predators. They typically are considered to be forage fish for predators such as LMB. Unless you will be taking out a lot of BG from the pond to eat, it will need a predator, but stocking too many will lead to a stunted LMB pond. With a pond that small, the better route to go would have been only Hybrid Bluegill or only Redear Sunfish because they reproduce less than CNBG or BG. Still, without you being the control of the panfish via harvesting, you will need one predator if they reproduce, or a few if they don't reproduce.


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Originally Posted by FishinRod
highflyer and Augie,

I think I understand why the pellet feeding could cause problems in a tiny pond.

I don't understand why the aerator is probably a detrimental item?

(I have followed snrub's micro-pond posts. He had great success growing out RES and HSB last year in a 0.1 acre pond with aeration.)

Nor do I. My assumption is that a bottom diffuser, not a surface agitator, is what others are referring to. "If" a quality fish food is used correctly, of course you should feed them. In any group of fish there are jumpers that are more aggressive, and grow faster than the majority of the fish stocked. Those are the fish you want to target so, quality food, decreased throw times, and chasing the BG's gape works very well. Or at least it has here over the last 7-8 years, but I would be interested in hearing other's personal long term experiences as well.

When I reference "chasing the gape", I mean don't feed 10" BG smaller pellets in bulk. The 15 minute rule for feeding fish doesn't apply here. You're only wanting to feed a small percentage of the fish. Feeding a limited number of larger fish food pellets to the most aggressive BG is not much different than Darwin's theory.

Cody Note: "chasing the gape" noted above also applies to feeding fish too large of a pellet to small fish. Yes eventually the large pellet will soften and small fish pick it apart, but if you listen to the expert fish food people they will tell you that pellets soaking in water leaches out a lot of the important soluble materials before the pellet can be pulled apart, thus making the pellet less nutritious. So one should choose a pellet that is the appropriate size for the fish you mainly intend to feed. Small pellets for small gape fish and large pellets for larger gape fish - "chasing the gape".

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/16/21 09:32 AM. Reason: added pellet info

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Originally Posted by FishinRod
highflyer and Augie,

I think I understand why the pellet feeding could cause problems in a tiny pond.

I don't understand why the aerator is probably a detrimental item?

(I have followed snrub's micro-pond posts. He had great success growing out RES and HSB last year in a 0.1 acre pond with aeration.)


Ditto on the aeration. I shoved the whole 1/4 acre fish population in my pond to a 1/20th acre of it while it was renovated and used a bottom diffuser aeration system to keep them alive, and I only had 1 BG croak.


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Originally Posted by Augie
Agree with skipping the aeration on this one. My bait pond is only slightly larger than the pond described here, and about 4' max depth - no aeration.
The BG/HBG in there came out from under ~8 weeks of ice cover with no apparent ill effects.
I do feed my bait pond, for the sole reason of growing the fish to appropriate size to use as catfish bait.
I have no intention to do any hook and line fishing in that pond, and will be removing 50-100 fish on a weekend that I'm running lines on the Missouri River.

Augie, what kind of catfish do you usually catch? I've heard flatheads are the very best eating, does that accord with your experience?


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Didn't say that aeration would be detrimental, said I wouldn't bother in a pond that size.

If OP is planning to put 1/4ac worth of fish in a 1/20ac pond, yes, it will probably need aeration to keep the fish alive.

There are other water quality issues to consider. OPs BOW is ~14000 gallons. That's not a lot of water.

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You are getting good advice even though some of it appears conflicting. The advice that appears conflicting is very likely not conflicting if you know the rest of the story or the 'whole' story. All the advisors above so far are well experienced. IMO the fish farms are very willing to sell you too many fish because that is how they make a lot of their money. Then when the fish are not doing well you go buy more fish from them to fix their original sales "pitch". Do you see their plan?

Example: you stocked or would have stocked, before some died in the bag, 300CNBG into 1/20th ac; that is 6000BG/ac. General standard standard BG stocking often is maximum of 2000/ac. In this tiny pond IMO you should have taken some of the advice and stocked HBG who are a great small anglers fish and grow faster and often BIGGER that BG for tiny ponds. That is why one advisor suggested only male BG for your pond. I would have used a slightly different plan but IMO you did not do due good planning, and diligence nor good homework; too big of a hurry very often results in poor results.

Fish food of 32% is designed mainly for growing catfish; notice the type of fish pictured on the bag in your picture. Plus the lower % protein foods always results in sport fish having MORE undigested / undigestable waste material production in terms of excess manure and lower water quality. With the current over crowded newly stocked fish in your tiny pond, you DO NOT need excess fish waste manure. As all the current fish now grow because you are feeding them and will soon reproduce, they will become even MORE overcrowded. Not a good thing!

You in the future with this many fish will have fish health problems and will very likely NEED to go back the the fish farm to buy more fish for one or several reasons. Again - See their plan? BG will eat your cheap 32% fish food but their growth will be way less than it could be if using a premium fish food (40%or 40%+) that you would/should buy from the place where you bought your fish. Overtons would have a better quality fish food available. Optimal has been proven to grow quickly big BG who produce minimal waste material. Go over to Overtons and buy 10 or 15 lbs of what ever they have for APROPRIATE sized food for fingerling BG. Small fish need small food for best growth. They might even be using Optimal, Skretting or Cargill - Purina which should tell you something. Fish farms do not want excess fish waste materials in their ponds. Explain your situation and they should sell you a lesser amount because 40-50 lbs of food is likely to go moldly or go "bad" buy decomposing vitamins before you get the whole bag fed. Fish food should not be kept longer than 8-12 months and better not longer than 6 months. Vitamin C is often the 1st thing in fish food to decompose. Overcrowded fish and bad food will soon cause dead fish, BAD WATER QUALITY, and the best thing that can happen is slow growing stunted, poor quality fish. You will definitely not be producing 'trophybg'.

The fish farm was correct,,, one can stock FHM and BG together as first fish BUT is mixed sex BG or CNBG the best fish to use for a 1/20 acre small angler's pond where the goal is young angler, high catch rate, large panfish?????? IMO maybe and probably not. Having highly prolific and too many panfish and / or predators in a sport fish pond is probably one of the most common problems in all sizes of ponds on this pond management forum. This is especially true for in smaller ponds where too many fish become a problem faster than in a larger pond.

From your pond picture, the pond looks muddy. How much natural fish foods do you think will grow in muddy water? Answer - VERY LITTLE. . Phytoplankton needs light penetration to grow. Depth of the plankton growth production zone depend on water clarity and lack of suspended mud, silt, clay and detritus. I would have first allowed the pond to develop some clearish water and hopefully a good plankton bloom to mostly feed the fingerling BG. Another bit of knowledge, and contrary to what you posted above, """ For FHM food, I know they eat phytoplankton but what can I buy right now to give them a jump start? Dried mealworms? Blood meal? Cottonseed meal? """
FHM as yearlings and adults eat a low percentage of phytoplankton, and not mainly phytoplankton. Most of their food is benthic plant (periphyton oriented) and animal materials.
The blood meal and cottonseed meal is primarily for enhancing zooplankton blooms not as direct food for fish.

Others have tried to give good experienced advice that has so far been pretty much overlooked or rejected. Fish farms are generally experts in growing small fish. We here on the PB forum are experts in growing high quality, big, healthy fish once the fingerlings are stocked - if our advice is followed. Your experiences so far will educate you. Should have, could have, would of. Time will tell the rest of the story.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/16/21 09:41 AM.

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Originally Posted by trophybg
I understand, but three fisheries(called two more) told me I'd be fine stocking CNBG and FHM at the same time.
Up above, Anthropic's info conflicts with Highflyer because Highflyer says only one predator but Anthtropic says I should/could have two (BG and one bass).

So now the question is whom do I follow?

I think you were so excited about your new pond and wanting to get things rolling that you didn't fully process the advice you received. It takes time to process that advice in order to understand the reasons underlying. All isn't lost but the stage is set for you to need to drain and kill the pond in order to start over. You just stocked your pond at the rate of 6000 BG/Acre. Not a reasonable scenario and one that will fail to produce what you probably imagine it will.

The best advice was from highflyer when he said "Whoa, slow down a bit" because you need to think through a plan and have an understanding of what to expect the results to be. Please don't go away ... rather ... take this as an opportunity to learn and share your experience. You will find that members are very willing to help but to fully understand the advice you may need to ask additional questions and give the recommendations deeper consideration and thought.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Very interesting thread and educational for me. Here is some of the "rest of the story".
I went onto the Tyler Fish Farm website and found that the person there that convinced 'trophybg' to buy 300 CNBG for a 1/20ac went against the TFF's standard recommendations. Here is from their website:
Coppernose Bluegill & Redear Sunfish Mix (15% Redear) 1"-3" $300 per 1000/ac. 3" to 5" $75 /100. Suggestion was for all sizes of ponds and for both sizes of BG to stock 1000/ac.
This 1000/ac equates to 50 BG to be placed in a 1/20 ac pond. Also note the fish of CNBG listing is said to very likely have mixed species of BG and RES and maybe even some hybrid BG(HBG) could be present.

TFF does not list fish food for sale so one does not know what brand/s of fish food TFF uses to grow fish. This is not the same as Overton's who advertise and sell Cargill fish food to customers.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/16/21 10:05 AM.

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Originally Posted by Bill Cody
Here is some of the "rest of the story".

Also note the fish of CNBG listing is said to very likely have mixed species of BG and RES and maybe even some hybrid BG(HBG) could be present.

Bill are they saying that their fish production ponds are contaminated (multi species and crosses) ? Yikes !

RES and BG yoy growing out in same pond is ok.

Cody Note: Here is a link to the TFF price list
https://tylerfishfarm.com/pricelist
A mix of BG and RES was my interpretation of the wording. Maybe they are saying the farm will blend the CNBG order with 15% RES? What do you think the wording means?

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Originally Posted by ewest
Originally Posted by Bill Cody
Here is some of the "rest of the story".

Also note the fish of CNBG listing is said to very likely have mixed species of BG and RES and maybe even some hybrid BG(HBG) could be present.

Bill are they saying that their fish production ponds are contaminated (multi species and crosses) ? Yikes !

RES and BG yoy growing out in same pond is ok.


Providing you are not stocking a pond with strictly SMB as a top end predator.....

I have a pond that is like that and now BG are starting to show up. So a mad scramble is on to try and limit their numbers. There were HBG stocked along with RES. The HBG were all hand sorted and 6 BG were pulled from them before they were stocked in the pond. The RES were just stocked, and I think that is possibly where they came from. No runoff or water from another BOW or creek can enter the pond.

I will be spending a lot of time at this pond on my dime this year seining, trapping and angling to remove any BG that can be removed.


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IMHO, a fishery supplier has the responsibility to keep lines selected and pure. Period. There is no excuse for the occurrence of unintentional hybrids interspersed in BG stock or RES stock.

With regard to advice received from TFF, I would just urge restraint. We don't know if the quantity of fish was trophybg's idea and he was just placing an order resisting advice or conversation. I used to be in a line of business where I frequently refused business because I felt to do the business would violate a personal ethical standard of helping a customer while doing no harm. I would sometimes hear about them bad talking me for refusing to give them a loan. My competition, people with no scruples, had no reservations about it. But in many, many cases, these same people returned to me saying that they wished they had followed my advice and we worked to resolve, sometimes successful and sometimes not, what turned into a difficult situation for them.

There are some people who don't want advice. They want you to give them what they asked for and shut up. We must keep this in mind before drawing conclusions about the level of knowledge TFF had regarding this incident.


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Originally Posted by esshup
Originally Posted by ewest
Originally Posted by Bill Cody
Here is some of the "rest of the story".

Also note the fish of CNBG listing is said to very likely have mixed species of BG and RES and maybe even some hybrid BG(HBG) could be present.

Bill are they saying that their fish production ponds are contaminated (multi species and crosses) ? Yikes !

RES and BG yoy growing out in same pond is ok.


Providing you are not stocking a pond with strictly SMB as a top end predator.....

My comment was indicating that many hatcheries grow out RES and BG in % in the same pond to use in stocking new ponds. I was not indicating that I like or approve of the practice - I don't and wont buy them that way.

Cody Note Repeated from ewest's post above.
Here is a link to the price list
https://tylerfishfarm.com/pricelist
A mix of BG and RES was my interpretation of the wording. Maybe they are saying the farm will blend the CNBG order with 15% RES? What do you all think the wording means? Only TFF knows the rest of the story.

In defense of fish farms, I have watched mixed fish being sorted and I have sorted some mixed species myself. Pressure is there to "Get 'er Done". When sorting mixed freshly seined fishes one or a few can easily get into the wrong bucket or tank by floping out of a net or out your hand or commonly even be misidentified especially when the mixed sunfish are only 1"-3" long. If you have several thousand fish that have already been sorted in a tank and all are sunfish, what do you do when a wrong one flops into the wrong location or into the sorted fish???. Start sorting over or keep sorting? Stuff like this commonly happens. Almost always everyone will just keep sorting. It is not the end of the world when a wrong specie is in the for sale container or tank - considering everything involved. That is why we here on the forum say if it is extremely important to have a pure culture resort the fish before release into your pond.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/16/21 07:22 PM.















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Trophy BG,

Bill, Eric, and Scott are some of the most experienced members here. All three are mods, all are experts in their fields. All have been peer reviewed published. They have over 100 years of combined knowledge. They are freely giving you advice and sharing their experiences. This is why Pondboss is a great "family."

Last edited by esshup; 03/17/21 10:33 PM. Reason: Fixed it.

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I came across a situation near Jefferson, Tx where a developer had a lake stocked with what he thought were channel catfish. As I was interested in buying a home, paid for a survey out of my own pocket and discovered that there were no CC, just bullheads. Don't think the developer was trying to con me, he seemed shocked at the news and asked for a copy of the survey report.

Please don't misunderstand this to mean that I'm casting blame on TFF! I have no idea who did the stocking. But if whoever did this cannot tell the difference between CC and bullhead, they should be in another line of business. Gross incompetence or maybe even dishonesty. This is why I prefer dealing with just a few stockers who I know are top notch.

Last edited by anthropic; 03/17/21 05:40 PM.

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Originally Posted by anthropic
Please don't misunderstand this to mean that I'm casting blame on TFF!

OK. That's easy enough smile

Quote
I have no idea who did the stocking.

That's why its so easy.

Quote
But if whoever did this cannot tell the difference between CC and bullhead, they should be in another line of business. Gross incompetence or maybe even dishonesty.

That's why I think that the inference is ridiculous. Just don't think it happened as you imagined it did. I know several members who have Bullheads in the their ponds. I don't think any of them got there as a CC stocking. I could even list the names of the suppliers, but I wont. But this much I know, some would be defended while others would not.

I don't understand why you didn't just ask the developer to show evidence of the stocking. You know like with a receipt or something like that. But you did a survey at your expense. Sounds to me like you didn't trust the developer and if you didn't why are you letting him completely off the hook about "Gross incompetence or maybe even dishonesty". Though I think the facts are true ... I am rather skeptical of the extrapolations and opinions.


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Well, you could be right, jpsdad. Perhaps the developer was disingenuous. Or maybe the stocker messed up. Heck, maybe there was a miscommunication, as the developer didn't strike me as very knowledgeable about fish. He could have asked for generic catfish assuming that they would be CC. Assumptions can be killers sometimes.

I do know that the developer wanted a copy of the survey report, he seemed pretty steamed. One way or another, it pays to check out the situation for yourself rather than relying on the words of other people. I didn't buy a home there, so the survey was some of the best $ I've ever spent. smile

Last edited by anthropic; 03/17/21 09:40 PM.

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Originally Posted by anthropic
Well, you could be right, jpsdad. Perhaps the developer was disingenuous. Or maybe the stocker messed up. Heck, maybe there was a miscommunication, as the developer didn't strike me as very knowledgeable about fish. He could have asked for generic catfish assuming that they would be CC.

Absolutely none of that seems likely to me. I think the more likely "rest of the story" is that BH were already in holes of the creek upon which the lake was built. It was servicing more than one home after all and so I presume it had a decent size. If they weren't in the lake from the beginning, then it is very likely they swam in from waters above or below in high water.

You see, it doesn't surprise me that survey didn't yield CC. Usually the procedure and settings for shocking them up is different. So I could see what survey revealed without drawing any of the conclusions.

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Assumptions can be killers sometimes

Interesting thing about "true assumptions", is that they cannot be proven false. In fact, good assumptions are required to arrive at potential truth. What you describe as potential truth are the presumptions that you are ready to accept as true. There is a big difference. The developer was disingenuous, the stocker messed up, there was a miscommunication, these are all things that can be proven false with sufficient inquiry into evidence. Same goes for the more likely scenario that BH were already in the watershed.

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I do know that the developer wanted a copy of the survey report, he seemed pretty steamed. One way or another, it pays to check out the situation for yourself rather than relying on the words of other people. I didn't buy a home there, so the survey was some of the best $ I've ever spent.

I think I know you well enough, though please correct me if I am wrong, to conclude it wasn't the lack of CC in a CC lake that caused you to back out. You don't seem to be to be a channel catfish kind of guy. It seems more likely the presence of BH in an LMB lake that discouraged you. I have to wonder how the fishing is there now (I suppose many years later). Maybe its a trophy bass lake, not assuming mind you as one could prove it false, even so it is a potential truth.

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/18/21 06:10 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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From what I saw of what passed for a creek, it only flowed during rain events. No pools. Rainfall in surrounding watershed seemed main source of water. Unlikely source of BH.

Now it could be that BH got in through bird feces & maybe feathers. Coons, turtles or crawfish are a possibility, too. There were maybe eight ponds in the development, cross contamination is very likely. Though I'd still question no CC at all in the survey of a shallow BOW.

I prefer LMB and BG to CC, but CC wouldn't have been a show stopper the way BH were. That was back when I didn't realize how much CC would compete with LMB. Also, the developer boasted about good crappie catches near a submerged tree, and I'm not a crappie fan. I don't even particularly like to eat them!

Shallowness turned out to be an issue, too. I did know, even then, that too much shallow water meant huge weed problems. Survey showed lots of water 3 feet deep or less, though I'd been told it was deeper.

My inferences are just that, inferences. But they are based on hard data, which is the best we can do. All I can say for sure is that the survey idea, which I got from PB, saved me from a terrible blunder!

Last edited by anthropic; 03/18/21 05:22 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Guys, I have to say I am very disappointed in a reply I received from TFF.

I told him "For reasons we don't understand, he stocked his 1/20 acre pond at the rate of 6000 bluegill per acre. It would be great to hear your side of the story and much better if you could reach out to that customer and help set him on the right path."

This was his reply. "Thank you for your email, The stocking rate is within American Fisheries Society guidelines. In a small pond, a higher stocking (r)ate is something recommended to reduce spawning activity."

So their side of the story is that they made the right recommendation. I do not agree with them and I am certain that I personally ... will never seek stock from them. I suppose they meant well, but IMO, its not good advice.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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