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Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
esshup #531442 03/03/21 06:01 PM
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Jim, I was looking on the Missouri Conservation website and they showed Pumpkinseed as another name for the Longear so I would assume that they're saying they're the same thing. But I see your saying they're not. Can you tell me what the differences between the two are? I think I'd like a few of one of them or both. They're both pretty fish, and I can't tell the difference.


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Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
esshup #531449 03/03/21 08:22 PM
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Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
esshup #531461 03/03/21 10:21 PM
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Thanks, both pretty but looking at those pictures I think the Longear is prettier. I think it is the Longear that I've caught here and there over the years but could be both.


Bob


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Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
Bobbss #531471 03/04/21 09:12 AM
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Bob, this is where we get into trouble with colloquial names. The name Pumpkinseed is used for multiple species here in the Missouri and it depends on who you are talking to. Most people in the majority of Missouri calling anything Pumpkinseed are referring to Central Longear Sunfish. Those living in the Boot Heel region of Missouri are referring to two species, the first is another low land form of Longear Sunfish (not same as Central Longerar) and the second is the Western Dollar Sunfish. The latter two are often sympatric and most folks do not distinguish between them even when in hand at same time. The fish called Pumpkinseed in the northern tier of states is the smaller mollusc eating critter with a red spot in opercular tab like the Redear has. There is also another Longear Sunfish (Northern Longear) that occurs in part of the Pumpkinseed's same general range and it often has a red spot on its opercular tab as well. I am not saying who is related to who in this mess. Their may have been some hybridization that helped these forms come into being.


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Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
esshup #531473 03/04/21 10:31 AM
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Thanks Jim, growing up here in Missouri most people I knew just called everything perch or sunfish. Every now and then I would hear someone call them by their real name.


Bob


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Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
esshup #531475 03/04/21 12:12 PM
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The better real names would be latin names. The other names are neither real or incorrect, especially when everyone is in agreement about what they are talking about.


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Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
esshup #531476 03/04/21 12:42 PM
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Growing up everyone called L Megalotis by the colloquial pumpkinseed. I didn't know an different until I was an adult. This was especially my dad's doing. He had me calling any non-crappie panfish "perch" and Green Sunfish "rockbass" and Spotted bass "redeyes". Everything else I think we called by their broader colloquial.

I have fond memories of Longears. They are excellent flathead catfish bait and good to eat. They were common in creeks that tended to run in NE OK where I grew up. They are also common in the streams here in DFW. If they grew as big as BG, many a panfish pond would have them I think. They are aggressive and easy to catch. A picture of my personal best is posted on Pond Boss.

[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/04/21 12:46 PM.

Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
esshup #531477 03/04/21 12:54 PM
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Thanks Jim - good info . No doubt that all these "sunfish/perch/bream/etc." get all mixed up both actually and figuratively. Thanks for the pics also.

jpsdad - nice fish - what did it look like to you ?
















Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
esshup #531479 03/04/21 01:09 PM
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Eric, its a Longear that grew in a pond with few fish. For a little more context I stocked this LES male into the pond (the only LES) by throwing it above the dam from the adjacent pond below. It was only about 4.5 to 5" in length when I did that. For a time, that upper pond was a panfish paradise containing only male panfish (LES, BG, RES) from the pond below. At the time, the upper pond had a population of catfish and Gams) It took that fish 1 year to go from 5" to 7.5" and I did release him. I caught and released him again that season but that is the last I saw of him. The following year I couldn't catch any the BG that had been in there. I don't know if they just died or were caught by another fishermen. Also the following year BG of all flavors and LMB were brought into the pond by others and the grand experiment was kaput.


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
esshup #531481 03/04/21 01:16 PM
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Is this close in appearance ?


https://www.efish.fishwild.vt.edu/families/hybrid.html

Here is a male BG that looks similar

[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

Last edited by ewest; 03/04/21 01:25 PM.















Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
esshup #531484 03/04/21 01:28 PM
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Thanks Jim, I guess real name was the wrong term to use. lol! What I really meant was their individualize name, whether or not slang.


Bob


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Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
ewest #531486 03/04/21 01:57 PM
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Eric,

Now I suppose it might have been a hybrid between a BG and a LES. But if so, then someone other than me put in the upper pond. I would mention that I have fished extensively in our area both ponds and streams and I have not yet caught a redbreast sunfish (though I do know they occur as an invasive further south of us here). Also I have never caught what has appeared, at least to me, to be a BGxLES hybrid. Of course the cross could occur but the fish I put in the pond was definitely an LES with standard local markings. I really do think I caught the same fish one year later. A bit more context, this fish was bedding and in full breeding color. There were also BG beds surrounding it and some of the these BG were larger than the LES. But this LES' bed, fanned out of bed of chara, spanned one and a half times those of the BG (some of these BG were between 9 and 10 inches in length). The fish had a lot of bright-blue throughout the length of its body and on the opercule which is apparent in the photo. I am certain this fish has Longear genes in it and think it is probably a pure LES also.

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/04/21 01:57 PM.

Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
esshup #531516 03/05/21 11:21 AM
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jpsdad - thanks - just trying to get as much info as possible to go with the slightly fuzzy pic. Same species can look very different from location to location -local adaptation is a powerful force for change. No opinion (suggestion) from me that it is/has any BG genes. I did notice 2 things - one it has prominent vertical bars (they are wide) and two some slight scale pattern/color across the nose like a CNBG.
















Re: Pumpkinseed or PS/RES Hybrid?
ewest #531556 03/05/21 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ewest
jpsdad - thanks - just trying to get as much info as possible to go with the slightly fuzzy pic. Same species can look very different from location to location -local adaptation is a powerful force for change. No opinion (suggestion) from me that it is/has any BG genes. I did notice 2 things - one it has prominent vertical bars (they are wide) and two some slight scale pattern/color across the nose like a CNBG.

I can't help but smile because, like you, I puzzled with the appearance myself when I caught it. The LES I stocked did not look like a smaller version of the fish in the photo (more on that in bit). Also I apologize for the poorly focused low resolution pic. I did not want it out of water long and as my daughter was holding it was spinning around. But if you look closely, except for the banding and a darkened patch along the lateral line, the fish was primarily orange ... even under the dorsal fin area. This is visible in the pic but the pic does a horrible job of depicting that fish. Nothing compared to the eye candy of being there.

Back to how different it looked when I caught it as compared to when it went in. The LES in this region are bright orange with blue interspersed. I haven't been able to find a pic online that demonstrates what I am looking at when I catch one, at least not a match. Some time later I will post a pic of one for reference (will be a while after I catch another). The LES here have a long thin bright bluish grey ear tab with a black and then a white margin as did the LES when I stocked it. So I was very puzzled because ear tab a year later was long and FAT and blackish blue. The margins weren't there and I was puzzled. But at the time I new the history of the pond and I thought the fish in it were stocked by me. Given I stocked only one LES, I felt confident it was the same fish (though I could be wrong). But this leaves the question, why so different in appearance? At the time I was able to view a pic of the world record LES and it too was dark and oddly shaped and colored. So I do wonder how this plays into maximum potential sizes and how this affects morphology. As an example, consider the fish you posted. At one time the fish you see in Bruce's hands once looked very much like it ...

[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

I would mention that the banding does occur in other LES when spawning ... but that big fat ear tab ... why? So either it wasn't the same fish ... or ... something else is going on. Perhaps colors, markings, even shapes of ear tabs are not fixed but are plastic features that can be modulated. To be sure, I wondered if the appearance had something to do with this fish's competition. With no females present, was this natures way of mimicking his competition by presenting an ear tab that was bigger and blacker than the larger BG? I just don't know, perhaps it found its way into that pond by some other means than myself. Either way, it is a memory I won't soon forget.

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/06/21 12:04 AM.

Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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