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Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530664 02/15/21 02:31 PM
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FLMB and CNBG have a similar genetic historical connection and many of the same traits WRT climate.


THE CUTTING EDGE � SCIENCE REVIEW
By Eric West


Coppernose Bluegill vs. Regular Bluegill � which one for you?


A question we often get on the Pond Boss Forum is should I stock Regular Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus macrochirus or Coppernose Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus mystacalis also previously classified and referred to as Lepomis m. purpurescens . To answer that question we should look at the traits of both and use the one that will work best for the particular goals for the water in question. As we all know traits come from genetics. So what is the difference in the genetics of Coppernose vs. Regular Bluegill? Well it started a long time ago and it took a long time to get there. [color:#CC0000]Here is the basic story. Millions of years ago peninsular Florida was, like it is today, connected to the mainland. Bluegill were present all over the eastern US. Sea level rose and peninsular Florida was cut off by the sea from the mainland creating two separate populations. Bluegill on both the mainland and on the peninsula continued to evolve separately each influenced by local conditions with a divergence time of roughly 2.3 million years. After a few million years of this separate path sea level fell and the two land masses were connected again. However the two bluegill sub-species were now a little different genetically. The rivers were connected and the two subspecies migrated and integrated in a zone along the deep southeast where the two sub-species mixed. If this sounds familiar it should � it�s the same story as the Florida Largemouth Bass and the Northern Largemouth Bass where the divergence time between Northern (M. salmoides) and Florida (M. floridanus) bass is approximately 2.8 million years. If you know one story you should have a fairly good idea of outcome of the other. Surely as a pond owner you have heard the bass story.[/color] Florida Bass get bigger under the proper circumstance and do not due well in cold climates. Yes Bluegill have a similar story.

Coppernose Bluegill get bigger under the right circumstance but do not flourish in colder climates. In fact Coppernose are susceptible to poor results and substantial winter kill in northern US regions as are Florida Largemouth Bass. So how do you tell Coppernose and Regular Bluegill apart. Take a look at the pictures included. The Coppernose has a copper band across its head/nose in adult males, has fewer and wider vertical bars, has orangish/red fin margins and tail coloration , 12 anal fin rays and often light/white fin edges most visible when young. The Regular Bluegill has 11 anal fin rays and none of the other traits mentioned.

So how do they compare? Here are some points from a study on the subject titled Performance Comparison between Coppernose and Native Texas Bluegill Populations by John A. Prentice and J. Warren Schlechte in the 2000 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 54 at pgs 196-206 looking at growth (size at age) , survival and catchability.

Coppernose Bluegill were significantly larger than Native Bluegill in all scenarios tested with the largest observed difference being 19.2 mm total length (.756 inch) and 33.5 grams ( 1.18 ounces) over 2 years. At 3 years there was a 16 mm (.63 inch) difference on average and at 4 years 24 mm (.945 inch). With other fish species present there was no difference in angling vulnerability between the types. Spawning activity of the brooders began at the same time (last week of Feb in 1995 and first week of March in 1997) and produced the same size offspring for tagging at the same time each year ( mid-April) in what appeared to be similar numbers. Survival of young of the year Coppernose was substantially greater than for Native Bluegill.

Before you draw to many conclusions note this was in Texas where the weather is close to that of the Coppernose�s native range. That is a critical key to success with Coppernose. While there is an often cited study titled Cold Tolerance in Two Subspecies of Bluegill by , A. J. Sonski , K. E. Kulzer , and J. A. Prentice, in the 1988 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 42 at pgs 120-127 , that states Coppernose and Native Bluegill have similar cold tolerances the key is the test was done on bluegill all from the same area (Texas). Its purpose was to determine if Coppernose could survive the Texas climate. There is substantial observed and anecdotal evidence that Coppernose do not do well in cold climates (roughly north of the north line of Arkansas/Tennessee extended) . In the far northern US Coppernose become subject to high winterkill rates. This would be consistent with their similar relationship to Florida Largemouth Bass which have repeatedly been tested to do poorly and die in cold climates. The study first cited above was also in ponds with no supplemental feeding. Reported scientific evidence is substantial that in ponds the most common cause of reduced growth is a shortage of food. It is not known how much, if any, of the early growth difference between the two sub-species was due to limited forage. The two sub species will integrate (inter-breed) with the offspring exhibiting mixed traits and no apparent negatives but there is very little published data on them.

So the answer to the question should I stock Coppernose Bluegill or Regular (native) Bluegill or both is � it depends. Your location (climate) and your goals are key factors. If you are in the Deep South or the Southwest (including Southern California) and not at high elevation (Appalachian, Rocky or Sierra Mountains) Coppernose should be considered. In short is your temperature profile similar to those areas? To some extent management practices and the existing bluegill population, if any, are also possible factors. Whichever type you choose keep in mind that the most important factor to growing nice bluegill is to be sure they have enough food to eat and not to much competition.[color:#CC0000][/color]

Last edited by ewest; 02/15/21 02:38 PM.















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Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530678 02/16/21 06:29 AM
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Had some friends over and played in the snow. Went out on the pond and drilled a hole. It is right at 5 inches thick. Went around to several different places all bout the same thickness. It is pretty cool to see the frozen air bubbles. Got the side by side out (didnt take it on the ice) and drug the kids all around on skis n tubes. Oh man is it cold. As of this morning it is -9°. I dont see how people live year round in this. One evening of playin in it is plenty for me. Hope everyone is staying safe out there.

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The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
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Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530679 02/16/21 06:34 AM
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This past Saturday I went out to the pond and turned the aerator on briefly; I've pulled the diffuser up to about 6' depth from the 11-12' depth it normally resides in. After maybe 10 minutes it broke a hole in the ice which was at least two inches thick, perhaps three.

It also finally appeared on a Google Earth update, and using their distance measuring tool is 0.58 surface acres.

Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530696 02/16/21 01:23 PM
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Just trying to deal with the cold here in Misery right now. Lots of snow on the ice. I'm staying off of it.
Cow pond is plenty deep and nowhere near carrying capacity so I'm not worried about a fish kill there.
Forage pond has been iced over pretty much every day since Christmas. I won't be at all surprised if
I lose all of the BG in that one. There's nothing I can do about it, so I'm not going to fret over it.

Spent a couple hours thawing a frozen livestock fountain this morning. I noticed a cracked ball valve on
another outdoor tap a few days ago, but it has gotten so stinking cold that one has frozen solid. I'll have
to wait for the temps to increase to fix that. Good chance of breaking the poly pipe if I mess with it now.

The cold got the best of farm truck yesterday. 245k mile Cummins. It cracked right off yesterday morning,
then started smoking out the exhaust. Looked like a tanker fire in my driveway. Waited on it to clear up,
headed for town, made it about a mile before it quit. Had it towed to a buddies shop in town. He thawed
it out overnight and changed the oil. Crankcase was completely full of diesel fuel. He drove it to the diesel
shop and left it there this morning. Probably going to need a new set of injectors.

Re: What did you do at your pond today?
Augie #530704 02/16/21 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Augie
Just trying to deal with the cold here in Misery right now. Lots of snow on the ice. I'm staying off of it.
Cow pond is plenty deep and nowhere near carrying capacity so I'm not worried about a fish kill there.
Forage pond has been iced over pretty much every day since Christmas. I won't be at all surprised if
I lose all of the BG in that one. There's nothing I can do about it, so I'm not going to fret over it.

Spent a couple hours thawing a frozen livestock fountain this morning. I noticed a cracked ball valve on
another outdoor tap a few days ago, but it has gotten so stinking cold that one has frozen solid. I'll have
to wait for the temps to increase to fix that. Good chance of breaking the poly pipe if I mess with it now.

The cold got the best of farm truck yesterday. 245k mile Cummins. It cracked right off yesterday morning,
then started smoking out the exhaust. Looked like a tanker fire in my driveway. Waited on it to clear up,
headed for town, made it about a mile before it quit. Had it towed to a buddies shop in town. He thawed
it out overnight and changed the oil. Crankcase was completely full of diesel fuel. He drove it to the diesel
shop and left it there this morning. Probably going to need a new set of injectors.
Where did you take it? the biggest problem is finding a good diesel mechanic but a cummins like that I would recommend Forrest Cunningham.


All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530707 02/16/21 04:25 PM
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I think a lot of my BG are hybrids between northern strain and CNBG. Wonder how they will fare?

Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530712 02/16/21 07:08 PM
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Took the opportunity to walk across the lake while the water was hard to check a few things, along with my wood duck houses, two duck huts and two home made ones, hadn't been anything in them except wasps and one had a hornets nest hanging from the bottom of it,about 6" in diameter, I had them out at a reasonable time last spring but the wood ducks were already here as I seen some when I put the nest boxes out, also seen them afterwards but they never did utilize my boxes last year but maybe they will this yr.
Ice is approx 4 to 5" thick, would be thicker I think but we have at least 5 inches of snow on top of it that kept it from getting thicker, if it had been clean with the cold weather we've had we would probably be looking at close to twice that thick.
I did see an otter track in the mud headed into the pond a couple weeks ago before the mud was frozen. gotta keep my eyes open, see if I can relocate him after it thaws out.
Appear to have brighter days ahead with as high as 50 in the 7 day forecast, we have not been above freezing temps in a while, might be close to ten days, with a good bit of that being around 0 and a lot of double digits negative wind chills so 50 is gonna feel like spring.
We have had geese flying north for a couple weeks and there are tons of cowbirds, red winged black birds and grackles already here, usually they don,t show up for another month, I had hopes for an early spring but it hadnt been that way yet, although this stuff can melt away almost as fast as it shows up so we still have a shot at an early spring.


All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
Re: What did you do at your pond today?
Augie #530745 02/17/21 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Augie
Just trying to deal with the cold here in Misery right now. Lots of snow on the ice. I'm staying off of it.
Cow pond is plenty deep and nowhere near carrying capacity so I'm not worried about a fish kill there.
Forage pond has been iced over pretty much every day since Christmas. I won't be at all surprised if
I lose all of the BG in that one. There's nothing I can do about it, so I'm not going to fret over it.

Spent a couple hours thawing a frozen livestock fountain this morning. I noticed a cracked ball valve on
another outdoor tap a few days ago, but it has gotten so stinking cold that one has frozen solid. I'll have
to wait for the temps to increase to fix that. Good chance of breaking the poly pipe if I mess with it now.

The cold got the best of farm truck yesterday. 245k mile Cummins. It cracked right off yesterday morning,
then started smoking out the exhaust. Looked like a tanker fire in my driveway. Waited on it to clear up,
headed for town, made it about a mile before it quit. Had it towed to a buddies shop in town. He thawed
it out overnight and changed the oil. Crankcase was completely full of diesel fuel. He drove it to the diesel
shop and left it there this morning. Probably going to need a new set of injectors.

Augie, yep, sounds like injectors. While it's there, have them change the fuel filter on the motor and also the one that is in the rear above the tank, that should be the water separator. .

Did it smoke like a tanker when your buddy drove it to the diesel shop?


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: What did you do at your pond today?
gehajake #530774 02/18/21 09:33 AM
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Taylor Diesel is where I've always had any needed engine service done, but they don't have a tech on staff right now so they're only able to do pumps and parts.
They recommended Fleet Specialties, so that's where it is now. It ran fine with no smoke after being thawed out and the oil changed. I decided to buy a new
truck so I asked them to just let it sit. All I need out of it now is 35 miles to Capitol Chrysler on Saturday.

Re: What did you do at your pond today?
Augie #530782 02/18/21 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Augie
Taylor Diesel is where I've always had any needed engine service done, but they don't have a tech on staff right now so they're only able to do pumps and parts.
They recommended Fleet Specialties, so that's where it is now. It ran fine with no smoke after being thawed out and the oil changed. I decided to buy a new
truck so I asked them to just let it sit. All I need out of it now is 35 miles to Capitol Chrysler on Saturday.


I read the other post, sounds like an injector was stuck or partially plugged and once it warmed up it cleared right up.


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Re: What did you do at your pond today?
Augie #530791 02/18/21 06:36 PM
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I didnt realize Taylor did any mechanic work, Ive had them rebuild pumps and injectors several times before.


All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530885 02/21/21 02:24 PM
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So Friday morning I came by the pond and there was an otter running around on the pond by the edges, (some are pretty steep and wooded) he was trying to find a spot where he could get down thru the ice and under water, I got out and ran after him, the snow was deeper then he was and he couldn't get around too fast but too fast for me, I got pretty close to him a coupla times but about hurt my lungs, it was right at -4 degrees and that is not good running wide open thru the snow weather, my throat was hurting for a day, inhaling that cold air. we came running around a corner of a cove and a bald eagle was setting there, kinda surprised him and he got up outta there but it was a beautiful sight in the snow.


All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530894 02/22/21 04:49 AM
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I have heard that otters can be pretty formidable. Sounds like he almost killed you without ever touching you:)

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Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530899 02/22/21 08:12 AM
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Traded old and busted fish hauler for new and shiny fish hauler on Saturday. No more diesel headaches for me.

Red Menace v.1 and Red Menace v.2

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

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Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530904 02/22/21 11:41 AM
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I bought my first Dodge truck at at the end of 2019. My son talked me into giving Chrysler a try. With the pandemic, I have less than 5000 miles on it. I bought the lowest end 4x4 2500. So far, so good, but it sits a lot higher than the old 3/4 ton trucks did. Tougher loading the bed with firewood! I got the special snow-camo version (white):)

Last edited by RAH; 02/22/21 11:42 AM.
Re: What did you do at your pond today?
RAH #530908 02/22/21 12:23 PM
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Yep, I almost need a ladder to climb in. It's going back to the dealer real soon to have a set of step bars installed.

Pops is 78. He took one look and said "bring it back after you get the steps installed and I'll take it for a spin".

Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530909 02/22/21 01:41 PM
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My son and his girlfriend installed nerf bars for me. A lot cheaper and work fine. He put my front hitch on and installed a trailer brake unit as well. The truck had no towing point in the front. Used the truck to tow his 1959-Imperial restoration project on a 16' trailer about 80 miles back to store in my barn. The weight was so forward on the trailer that going over 50 got the whole rig rocking side to side. He did the driving. He loves the old Chrysler/Dodges. He has 3 others (2 trucks and a 1960's Newport) that he runs on the road, but still need restoring. I use a folding hitch step in the rear hitch to help me get up into the truck bed of the 2500. It works OK, but I wish that the fixed step I ordered had actually fit my truck like it said it would. Fortunately, it could be returned. Was definitely not made for my truck in spite of what the ad said.

https://www.etrailer.com/tv-review-etrailer-extendable-hitch-step-288-08400.aspx

Re: What did you do at your pond today?
RAH #530910 02/22/21 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RAH
I have heard that otters can be pretty formidable. Sounds like he almost killed you without ever touching you:)
Bingo, that's what I thought, I had my little 22 pistol with me that I check traps with but its not very accurate, 90 percent of the time I have my dogs with me but this time I didnt, just my luck.


All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
Re: What did you do at your pond today?
RAH #530913 02/22/21 03:18 PM
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The one I bought is the base model 2500, but it came with a nice options package. Class V receiver hitch, integrated brake controller, front tow hooks, 18" rubber, etc.
I worked the step bars, bed liner, and gooseneck flip ball into the deal. Probably could have saved a few hundred on that stuff by dealing with it myself, but this way is
almost zero effort on my part to get it done. I'll take it back to the dealer on Friday and it will be finished by the end of the day. It's likely I will invest in one of the steps
that plugs into the receiver hitch. Old truck I just climbed on the tire to get into the cargo box. Tires are a lot taller on this one and I'm not getting any younger. It is
going to take me awhile to get used to how stinking huge this truck is. It is bigger in every direction compared to my old Gen2 truck.

Re: What did you do at your pond today?
Augie #530921 02/22/21 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Augie
The one I bought is the base model 2500, but it came with a nice options package. Class V receiver hitch, integrated brake controller, front tow hooks, 18" rubber, etc.
I worked the step bars, bed liner, and gooseneck flip ball into the deal. Probably could have saved a few hundred on that stuff by dealing with it myself, but this way is
almost zero effort on my part to get it done. I'll take it back to the dealer on Friday and it will be finished by the end of the day. It's likely I will invest in one of the steps
that plugs into the receiver hitch. Old truck I just climbed on the tire to get into the cargo box. Tires are a lot taller on this one and I'm not getting any younger. It is
going to take me awhile to get used to how stinking huge this truck is. It is bigger in every direction compared to my old Gen2 truck.

The one I have now is a 4-door with 8' bed. Turning radius is like a school bus. I carry a step ladder to get in and out of the bed. Without running boards my knees were killing me at the end of the day. They are on this one.


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Re: What did you do at your pond today?
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My truck had the bed liner and 18" tires, but no running boards, front hooks, gooseneck ball, or brake controller. I got the deal that I wanted because my son negotiated it over a couple weeks. It helped that I could have waited on the truck, so I did not need to buy it immediately. The surprise was a free 52" smart TV because we bought the truck on Black Friday. The truck made it easy to get the TV home. Never would have spent the money on such a big TV, but it is nice. I have a regular cab and 8' bed. It's big enough as is without having a bigger cab. Even our Jeep is a 2-door which makes it suitable as a UTV on our place. Just cannot justify the high cost of a designated UTV. Maybe some day, but the Jeep does fine on our trails for now.

Re: What did you do at your pond today?
Augie #530928 02/23/21 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Augie
Traded old and busted fish hauler for new and shiny fish hauler on Saturday. No more diesel headaches for me.

Red Menace v.1 and Red Menace v.2

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]
I love my diesel for towing, but all of the newer emissions crap has made me wonder if their worth it. I may go back to gas my next go around, because of the headaches I've had with the emissions. I had a 99 Powerstroke that gelled up a lot on me. I've had a 2004 and 2011 Duramax that have never gelled up and always started right up but the 2011 has gone into limp mode several times because of the emissions crap.

Congrats on the new truck!


Bob


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Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530938 02/23/21 12:34 PM
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Went for the Hemi for the same reason. Plenty of power for me.

Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530955 02/23/21 10:16 PM
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It depends on how far and how much you tow. I couldn't afford the gas, the poor fuel economy would kill me. I can have 195 gallons of water in the bed, pulling a 9,900# GVWR trailer @ 70-75 mph and still pull down in the upper teens mpg wise.


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Re: What did you do at your pond today?
canyoncreek #530958 02/24/21 07:23 AM
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If not for the reduced reliability and increased cost of maintenance that current diesel emission systems impose (especially for particulate control), I would have bought a diesel.

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Cary Martin, NC Waterboy, smrosendahl
Recent Posts
Bowfin
by CityDad - 03/06/21 11:15 PM
What did you do at your pond today?
by FishinRod - 03/06/21 09:28 PM
Yellow Perch Spawn 2021
by FishinRod - 03/06/21 09:21 PM
EURYHALINE POND UPDATE
by canyoncreek - 03/06/21 09:04 PM
Wood duck camera house
by canyoncreek - 03/06/21 09:03 PM
Trash pump?
by esshup - 03/06/21 09:00 PM
Do I chemically treat?
by esshup - 03/06/21 07:01 PM
Deer Feeder Placement
by FishinRod - 03/06/21 06:30 PM
Bluegill Die off
by FishinRod - 03/06/21 04:30 PM
Texas dam safety
by DannyMac - 03/06/21 03:53 PM
What am I looking at here?
by Dinsmoreoutdoors - 03/06/21 11:44 AM
MO question via email
by esshup - 03/06/21 08:59 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Mongo's New Pond
Mongo's New Pond
by Mongos Pond, February 27
Ice Ice Baby
Ice Ice Baby
by highflyer, February 21
ID?
ID?
by Quixotic, February 7
pond gone
pond gone
by Stressless, January 31
Chara or Coontail?
Chara or Coontail?
by MrSandman, November 28

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