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Originally Posted by esshup
I will reserve comments until the O2 and temp readings come in. I'd love to see the temp profile for the pond from just below the ice to the bottom in the deepest part of the pond, then correlate that to the depth that the diffusers are placed at. I'd love to see you do something next year, but I'll not say what it is until the temp profiles come back.

I'm going to check on a system that was installed to keep ice from forming around a pier, and I will report back once I see how it's going this year.

Scott

I got to admit, I'd love to hear your theory now instead of after the results come in!!

I have said this before, but I will say it again. I will 99.9% guarantee the water is basically homogenous. It has been over the past 2-3 winters when we were pumping far less air so I've got to imagine this year the water will be even more fully mixed. In past years we had less than half a degree of difference in temp from top to bottom. I believe I am achieving this in winter due to cold waters ability to move easier and farther than warm water. IIRC Bill Cody has stated that in winter he has documented a diffuser moving water 200' away due to cold water moving easier than warm water. Jeff in MN has a Youtube video of GoPro footage filmed under the ice of a single diffuser moving water even further away than that.

I just do not see how the pipe is not a homerun at this point. There's no question DO will improve with a hole open and there seems to be no question that a pipe in the plume either causes the hole to reopen MUCH faster OR keeps a hole open that would otherwise be iced over solid. That HAS to be a win for DO levels and water quality.

I am starting to believe plume intensity matters much less than I thought, at least in my setting. If plume intensity mattered I do not see how the koenders could currently have a hole open and the close dual is frozen over solid. The koenders has about the weakest plume you can imagine and the close dual has a downright ferocious plume. What is happening right now makes no sense to me if plume intensity actually matters. I am also not convinced the coarser bubbles would help my ice doming situation. If the ice domes up and is no longer touching the surface of the water how would coarser bubbles help at all? That is why I am sticking with the vertex diffusers. The pipe opens the hole and then the vertex fine bubbles moves more water to the surface for gas exchange than the coarse bubbles would.

Honestly I just don't think we can compare systems in your area to these true "northern" systems. You guys might get an inch or two or three, right? I am getting three feet of ice!!! IMHO, Jeff in MN is the closest comparison to what I deal with. He gets MUCH colder temps than I get, same amount of ice, less snow than I get and then I have altitude always working against me. I think the amount of ice we get, the rate at which the ice can form once aeration turns off, how low the water temps get, how long our water is under ice, etc are game changers for us and require solutions that you guys never have to worry about. I think there is a reason you have never had to deal with the ice doming up, yet Jeff and I both have dealt with it every single year. Jeff has disproven a LOT of winter aeration stuff that gets regularly posted and reposted here on PB, but he won't post any of his findings because he just doesn't care to argue it with folks. For instance, he now runs his aeration 24/7 all through the winter. He "super chills" his entire pond down to 33 degrees or less. In the spring at ice off his LMB are coming out fat, happy and healthy with impressive growth over the LONG winter under thick ice. That isn't supposed to be possible, right? Yet it's happening.

Bill Cody has said this quite a while back and I agree more now than ever. I think we have a LONG way to go to fully understand aeration under the ice, especially thick ice.

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/27/20 10:35 AM.

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Chad:

I'm not going to make assumptions without data. You know what assume means, and during the last 2 years I have been doing some testing here as well because I don't like to assume. The testing has been done in a small pond compared to yours and a lake that is 36x larger than your pond. While we don't have the same thickness of ice, we DO get ice and I can't believe that you can form more ice in the time that the system is off than we can if the system here is off for the same amount of time with relatively close to the same ambient temperature. After all, you are not trying to burn a hole through 3' of ice, you are trying to go through ice that has formed since the time the system has been off. Our ambient air temps would be pretty close too, we will see temps from +30°F to -20°F and I can pick ambient temp to start and stop the system here. I have done some testing here as well when the ice first formed and was between 1" and 2" thick and there was no snow on it. It was very easy to watch the air coming up to the ice from the diffusers and what happened to that air.

Until the data comes back in I will just do as Brian suggested and shut up. As a moderator I know it takes 2 and I won't go there. I would like to know how many CFM each compressor that you have is pushing to the pond, and to what "hole" in the pond ice it's pushing that air to; i.e., How much CFM do you have feeding each of the ones (1,2,3?) Or are all of them fed off of the same compressor? If so, what cfm is that output at your elevation? I know how much the Koenders windmills push, there are 2 of them here feeding two different ponds at a customers place, along with a Koenders electric compressor feeding a 3rd pond. Are you using a Vertex diffuser with the Koenders system or the one that came from them?

Here is what I'd like to know, plus the temp and O2 profile once the data is available. I have assumptions on what that is, but want to know for sure.

1) You have the close dual. What water depth is that placed at and how many cfm (if known)?

2) You have the quad. What water depth is that placed at and how many cfm (if known)?

3) You have the one with the pipe. How many diffusers and what depth of water is that placed at and how many cfm (if known)?

4) Then there is the Koenders. What depth of water is that placed at?

Are you running Vertex diffusers at all of the places (1,2, and 3)?


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Scott

Gast 1550 pump - 12 CFM at 10 PSI
Thomas 2660 - 4.24 CFM @ 10 PSI

10 PSI is the pressure at start up. As the system runs a bit the PSI comes down about 1 PSI. So these numbers are worst case.

16.25 combined CFM minus 33% derate for 10,000' = 10.88 CFM

I have 9 vertex discs. That is 1.21 CFM per disc or slightly more. The koenders runs one single vertex disc that is not included in those calcs.

The layout is illustrated in the pic - koenders omitted. Air is balanced via valves to make plumes relatively even. The single has the weakest plume on purpose and the close dual has the strongest plume on purpose for experiment I knew it would be unprotected by a pipe or natural obstruction. I have no way to individually measure the CFM each disc is receiving.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

IMO - I do not know what the DO data will prove at this point. I have proven the ice is doming up. That was proven December 2019 when I shot the dome and it blew up. Pics are in this thread. I have also proven the pipe prevents/disrupts the doming process. Are you disagreeing with any of this??? I hope not because IMO that data is shown again right here in todays pic. Every hole is now toast except the piped hole. Even the quad is almost completely gone. If things proceed as they have the last three years the quad will entirely vanish with only random signs of a little bit of action, but no hole again till spring. Could be slightly different this year with the addition of the 2660 running simultaneously.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

DO may not be great right now. How could it be with only one hole open? I do 100% believe that next year with a pipe next to each diffuser and 5 holes open, my DO will be significantly better than it is currently.

How often do you see -20 degrees?? To me here's just some high level thinking. No - I am not trying to burn through three feet of ice, BUT just the fact that Jeff and I annually get three feet of ice and you guys are no where even close to that tells me we are dealing with two very different animals.


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wbuffetjr:

Nope not disagreeing with any of that. The temp/O2 levels will tell me how well and how deep the water is being mixed. We will see -20 maybe once a year, maybe not at all, maybe highs in the single digits and lows in the low - teens or -20's for a week straight or more, it all depends on how the jet stream flows. We had colder and longer winters 50 years ago than now, the winter weather is more unpredictable and it seems to start being "winter" later in the year and last for longer into the "Spring" than it did years ago. Now we typically have less snow than we did 30,40+ years ago. BUT, being in a micro climate that is influenced by Lake Michigan we could see 24'-36" snow in less than 24 hours, it all depends if Lake Michigan is open and we have a cold front blowing over the lake from the NW.

Christmas Eve a buddy had 15" snow fall in less than 12 hours and he lives 19 miles as the crow flies from me. We had roughly 1/2" inch here during that same time period, that is how focused the bands of lake effect snow can be.

Nope, don't need any figures for CFM to any individual diffuser stations, was more curious to total cfm from each compressor.

Let me go back through my notes to see what your volume of water is in the pond. Here are some numbers for you:

Quad moves 603,000 gph
Dual @ 10' moves 192,000 gph
Dual @ 12' moves 234,000 gph
Single @ 6' moves 6,900 gph


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Well unfortunately no data. Pics is all I have and the pic from yesterday shows how everything has looked for the past several days. Virtually no signs of life from any of the diffusers EXCEPT the diffuser with the pipe in the plume. All the holes disappearing like this is exactly what I have experienced over the last 3-4 years. Pumps have been running like normal everyday. Obviously this coming summer every single plume is getting a pipe. For perspective, that hole is approximately 250 yards away from the camera so the hole is bigger than it appears in the pics.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 01/04/21 12:13 PM.

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How many plumes do you really need to give the fish a warm water refuge with oxygen? Since you can run a big system and use 4 diffusers at a time, if you took down the little bubblers or the windmills and just ran one big hole or two big holes (maybe one more shallow and one where the hole is now) wouldn't that be enough to keep the fish alive for the winter? Or do you need multiple holes all over the place?

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Canyon - IMO at this point more open holes/water = higher DO and that's what I am after. At this point I am unconcerned about water temp or a warm water refuge. The past three years the trout seem to have been thriving under the ice in the near freezing water so I just don't see a reason to worry about water temps. I do not think I have acheived 100% survival yet. I THINK I am still loosing some number of fish per year. I am thinking higher DO can get me to 100% survival. or at least no losses due to low DO.....

The other issue is I am trying to flush nutrients from the lake with the snow melt. If I keep the lake fully mixed when the spring runoff comes I flush a lot of water through the lake. I am hoping that flushing helps reverse my eutrophication somewhat over the years. No way to easily get up there to move diffusers around from a winter configuration to a spring runoff setup.

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 01/04/21 12:16 PM.

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Ok mister Buffet I have an idea. Now for starters I want you to know I know almost zero about aeration (keep tht in mind). Would it be beneficial to put 3 diffusers in a small triangle. No clue how close I'm talking about maybe 20 feet apart. Close enough they would help each other out keeping a huge hole open. If it a stupid idea feel free to tell me. Lol wont hurt my feelings like I said I know next to nothing about this stuff.

Edit - Now dont get me wrong I'm not suggesting you try it ar this point in the year. No reason to get crazy lol.

Last edited by RStringer; 01/04/21 09:40 PM.

The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
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Stringer - I always appreciate input man! I can say this.... We thought about that approach earlier as well. In the past, I had the quad station and a dual station 20 or 25 yards apart. I turned the other stations off and only ran air to those two stations. Now that is 6 discs pumping air. I had the same result - the holes froze over completely never to be seen again. Now maybe it's possible that the result would have been different if the stations were 20 feet away instead of yards, but I doubt it. Last year in the middle of winter I had my buddy turn the valve and kill a couple stations to try to force more air to less spots. It didn't help at all.

For the last few years the fight has been just to keep a dang hole open. And this is not just happening in my lake. A cabin below me has a solar aerator that has not been able to keep a hole open for three years in a row. I am planning on putting in a pipe for him this summer and then monitor results. Now, we know the ice is doming up and now we know the pipe will prevent the dome and keep a hole open. Knowing those things I question the advantages, dissolved oxygen-wise, of one big hole versus multiple smaller holes.


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8 days since the last update. Things have remained relatively unchanged. The pipe hole is still open and has been the entire time. (Remember this hole is ~250 yards from the camera so it is much bigger than it appears). It seems to have gotten a little smaller and I think that may be due to water temps getting colder. No question though, this is the first year EVER I have been able to keep a hole open uninterrupted. There is some signs of life from the diffuser in the close dual spot. It looks like maybe the dome collapsed and we are getting a little action. If it is like years past, this action will be short lived, will dome back up and disappear completely. There has been zero new snow. Not doing too great for average annual snowfall. Plan for summer 2021 is pipes in every single plume.

Still have not been able to get anyone up to gather data. That sucks.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 01/11/21 03:54 PM.

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Small update and semi interesting. Zero new snow still! Not good! We need some snow out there. Had one of the windiest days up there I've ever seen over the previous two days. Sustained winds for hours over 30 mph with a high of 39mph. Pretty wild. The snow in the pics even appears windswept now. The pipe hole continues to show out. It has not closed up one single time all winter. The other holes are still gone. The close dual still has a wet spot that just refuses to open up into a hole and I could not understand why. Comparing todays pic to an older pic shows the answer. The dome over the close dual has NOT collapsed like I thought it had. In the older pics a "donut pattern" appeared in the snow over the diffuser. This was more proof of the ice doming up as the melt pattern is the exact opposite of what it should have been. Well I transposed todays pic over top of the "donut pic" and the wet spot in todays pic lines up OUTSIDE of the donut pattern. So somewhere along the outer edge of the donut pattern the water has melted through a little bit, but the dome MUST still be present over top of the diffuser. Out at the edges of the plume there is just not enough energy to get through the ice. So all this explains in years past why the wet spots would show up, but never make a hole, and then disappear as soon as new snow fell. Jeff in MN has documented ice lifting 2' off the water!!!

Todays pic with wet spot
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Old pic with donut pattern. The wet spot in pic above lies completely outside of the donut.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 01/16/21 08:53 AM.

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The days with more flat sunlight are good to see what is really going on.

-Pipe hole still kicking butt. Interestingly the pipe hole has a dual diffuser and it looks like it's hole is as big or bigger than the hole the quad diffuser has made to the right.
-The quad diffuser appears to have broken through. That spot is usually covered by the shade from the trees. In previous years it has not been able to break through like this. Is it possible moving the diffuser closer to the shore allowed the air to vent and shortened the amount of time the dome could stay in place?? I think so and that was my intention, but no way to prove.
-very very slight gray spot from windmill. can only really see when zooming in. Will be very interesting to see how windmill performs next winter with a pipe in the plume. It has NEVER kept a hole open in 7 years.
-single vertex to the far right is long gone.
-close dual still struggling with the dome. Wet spot out on the edge of the dome seems to be remaining basically the same size.

It is snowing today with more snow in the forecast this week. I expect all the holes/wet spots to be snowed over except the hole with the pipe.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 01/19/21 11:53 AM.

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So, a small update. Not too much new going on other than a LOT of new snow and a LOT more on the way. The pipe hole was finally over taken by the snow for a bit, but did make it's way back open all though it is smaller. Pipe hole is back open and windmill is doing really well after a week or so of ferocious wind.

My buddy went up and got some data. DO was 3.0PPM which is MUCH better than this time in years past. Water temp is 32.7 degrees! Wow! Really cold!

These incredibly low water temps create a fascinating question. Jeff, MNFish, in Minnesota has far colder ambient air temperatures than I do. He is regularly deep in the negatives and I don't think we have had any negative temps so far this year. I would say my low temps have averaged in the mid to high teens to the low 20s. I have over double the surface acres that he has. His ponds deepest spot is 6' and mine is 22'. He is also running his aeration 24-7. I am running 7 hours per day. Yet somehow his water temps are far warmer than mine.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 02/09/21 11:01 AM.

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Where does MNFish have the diffusers placed in the water column?

Are any of his ponds water table ponds?


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This year he has them suspended below the water surface. Not exactly sure how deep. Not sure if they are water table ponds or not. I don't think his big pond is.


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Weather has been so rough up there the camera has not been able to consistently send images. It is going several days in a row without sending pics. We got somewhere around a combined amount of 2 feet of snow over the last couple weeks. Buddies went up on snowmobiles and estimated 4' to 5' of snow on the ground with even more in the timber. No idea how much snow is on top of the ice. Here is what I do know.... The pipe hole is still open. All other holes are long gone. At this point I am claiming victory. We are almost into March, have a ton of snow on the ground and the pipe is still killing it. I have NEVER in the history of aerating this water had a hole open this long. IMO the pipe 100% solves the ice doming issue.

Tentative plan moving forward. I am going to keep my diffusers in deep water, but I am going to suspend them under the surface of the water some amount like MNFish is doing. Currently thinking maybe 4'-ish. Hoping this can keep my water temps a little bit higher and therefore keep bigger holes open. Diffusers suspended in shallow water will also reduce the PSI on the system, increase the amount of CFM produced and lower the pumps power consumption therefore allowing longer run times on the solar system.

I will also suspend a single diffuser below the surface with NO PIPE to see how it fares. In the name of science. Lol

ALSO - another huge benefit to suspending the diffusers. We think by moving diffusers off the bottom we can significantly reduce the O2 consumption by the bacteria on the bottom of the pond. If we stop circulating the water all the way to the pond bottom we should also stop feeding 02 to the bacteria in the muck working on decomposition. We think this will significantly reduce the BOD in my water. Only time will tell. Unfortunately there are basically one year gaps between starting my experiments and seeing the results. THAT is hard to deal with.

I count this year as a huge win. We finally identified the correct problem to solve - Ice doming up - and solved it. My water also seems to be in the best shape it has ever been in at this point in the winter. Fish should survive no question. Will 100% survive? No way for me to know.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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How is your total snowfall for the winter? Are you still behind on snow? How much more snow season do you have left before spring melt?
Any updates on the ice or are we a month from ice out?

I'm listening to a archived Facebook Live from the Pond Boss where he says that with O2 ppm under 7 trout will suffocate. How do your trout survive at less than 7? Is there a place in the pond where ppm is 7 or higher? Or your trout are like freedivers that they have adapted to no oxygen conditions?

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Canyon - Sorry it has been a bit since I checked in. Snowfall is not great, but far from the worst we've had. I think we reached about 85% of normal for our zone. Coming off fast though and now we are sitting at 70% of normal. I will put that in perspective though. This pic was taken April 2nd. The wood thing poking through the snow in this pic is a huge saw horse I use to lay the wind turbine tower down on. The top of the saw horse comes to about my neck....
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

For a long stretch there has been zero change up there. The pipe hole remained open all winter and all other holes remained domed over. A few days ago pics started to come where it looked like the domes were finally starting to try to open - like you can see with the closest dome. Yesterday the quad diffuser, in the far back right, finally broke through and has made open water. I am HOPING to keep open water over the open diffusers from here on out, but we will see.

My buddy went up a couple months back and measured 3.0PPM. That is much lower than I would like, but higher than it's ever been over winter. How do my trout survive the low DO conditions?? I honestly am not sure. I suspect it might be a few factors. One, there are possibly some safe zones right around the diffusers where DO is higher than what we've measured further away from the diffusers. Two, My water temp was 32.7F. I suspect the trout need much less O2 at those extremely low water temps. One of my bigger questions is how the heck do they grow so well under the ice in these horrible conditions??

Praying the Brookies were able to pull off a spawn and the eggs survived and hatched. I am ready for reproduction.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 04/10/21 06:45 AM.

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Pic from 04.13.2021

The closest diffuser finally broke through the dome and made open water. Hoping to get some DO readings sometime by this weekend. It's been very warm up there and snow is coming off fast.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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I thought this was a very interesting comparison of the last few years. Clearly the setup this year has been MUCH more effective than in the past. The pipe hole stayed open, although small, all winter long minus three to five days it appeared semi closed up. All the other holes opened up about a month sooner than in the past. Trying to get my buddy up soon to get a DO reading. I am hoping that produces improved results as well. Pics are from either the same day each year or one day off.

04.23.2021
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

04.22.2020
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

04.23.2019
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

04.23.2018
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Hopefully only about one more week of ice and then we will be free!

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Now THAT is some ice. Still battling on May 12th. Ready for open water. Soon hopefully....

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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W
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W
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,355
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Finally open water and the spillway is working beautifully even though it is still buried in snow!

[video:youtube]
[/video]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

P.S. - is there a secret to embedding youtube videos??

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 10/14/21 12:08 PM.

Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,492
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,492
Likes: 39
W-B-JR,
I'm with you that the embed youtube feature seems to have quit working. I had one person offer to look into it but it doesn't appear an answer was found.

Moderators, can someone please restore the function of the embed video button and if it is working, give us the secret as to how to embed youtube videos?

1 member likes this: wbuffetjr
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,492
Likes: 39
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Offline
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,492
Likes: 39
BUMP

Can moderators help fix youtube embed or if they can't can they report to forum software manager to ask for bug fix?

1 member likes this: wbuffetjr
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