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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528263 11/30/20 04:14 PM
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I just wish that all the learning could be done in 1 year so the next years would allow the real pond management to get rolling vs. still trying to figure out how to keep 'em alive!

As for the doming, no bet. LOL


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
esshup #528290 12/01/20 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by esshup
I just wish that all the learning could be done in 1 year so the next years would allow the real pond management to get rolling vs. still trying to figure out how to keep 'em alive!

I'm 100% with you! Very frustrating to have to set the experiment and then basically wait a year to see results and make adjustments.


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528330 12/01/20 02:24 PM
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More interesting crumbs of data coming in. The crumbs sure seem to point to my doming theory. You can see the close diffuser is dealing with a dome. The ice doming up causes the "doughnut pattern" because the plume no longer touches the ice. The warmer water travels out and melts the outside ring of the circle. If the dome does not break by the time aeration turns off then the ice has time to refreeze overnight and tomorrow when the aeration resumes the ice lifts even further off the water making it even more difficult to melt a hole. It appears even the quad is struggling to stay open even though it's hole was open all the way to the shore. The windmill hole is totally gone. Meanwhile the ONLY diffuser with the pipe in the plume is still wide open.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528378 12/02/20 02:36 PM
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Another update. Hope I'm not boring y'all. Fascinating to me!

Close dual is still battling, but hanging in there. I think it's days are numbered until it vanishes. Once more snow comes life will get more difficult for it I think.

Quad appears to have reopened. Windmill hole totally gone with no signs of life and yesterday was a good windy day.

Meanwhile the ONLY diffuser with the pipe keeps chugging along. Low temp this morning was 4 degrees.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528379 12/02/20 04:00 PM
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Personally I am enjoying your story

Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528386 12/02/20 06:37 PM
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I like the story also just have no advice whatsoever. I'm hoping you are in the right direction now. 🤞


The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528402 12/03/20 06:04 AM
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Thanks fellas. I'm also hoping I'm headed the right direction!! The next three or four weeks are very important. If the hole with the pipe stays open I will be claiming victory.


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528580 12/07/20 05:39 AM
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The close dual is back to open. Quad hole is still open as well - although looking small. Possible snow coming this weekend so if that happens I expect some of the holes to struggle to stay open. Theoretical scenario is - Snow will stick to the panels and cause power to shut down, holes will freeze over, if power doesn't come back on early enough and allow pumps a full day to run it will create a dome and then the hole is done for. Falling behind on snow this year. As of 12/06 we are 69% of last year and 64% of average. That can change in a minute though. We have had a single storm dump 48" or so in the past. We REALLY need the snow out there bad - but the lack of snow makes life easier for the aeration.

Buddy might be going up soon to take some DO readings. I am very interested to see how the water is doing.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/07/20 05:41 AM.

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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528722 12/10/20 11:04 AM
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Very interesting read. Just finished the entire thread at Jpsdad suggestion. My 1 acre pond should be finished by next week and filled by spring thaw if not earlier. I'll being using some of your experiences in aerating through our southern Maine winters. Thanks for the thread.

I'm rooting for the quad hole btw.

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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
Mainahs70 #528729 12/10/20 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mainahs70
Very interesting read. Just finished the entire thread at Jpsdad suggestion. My 1 acre pond should be finished by next week and filled by spring thaw if not earlier. I'll being using some of your experiences in aerating through our southern Maine winters. Thanks for the thread.

I'm rooting for the quad hole btw.

Thanks Mainahs!! Knowing that all this might help someone shortcut some problems definitely makes it more rewarding!! Please make a post on your place and keep us updated. There are not many Northern guys that deal with thick ice on the board. It'll be great to have you!!

I expected the quad hole to be doing better. I am doubting it is going to stay open through the next 30 days. Snow coming this weekend.

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/10/20 12:40 PM.

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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528772 12/11/20 11:18 AM
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This has been an awesome story. It really gives a person a lot of things to think about along the lines of pond development, and i must commend your determination. You have over came a lot of obstacles and keep looking for ways to improve your pond. I feel like only one thing is missing you have mentioned that you go out there in fall for elk season, but we have never seen any pictures of elk. Have you ever had any luck?

Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
ty1174 #528790 12/12/20 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ty1174
This has been an awesome story. It really gives a person a lot of things to think about along the lines of pond development, and i must commend your determination. You have over came a lot of obstacles and keep looking for ways to improve your pond. I feel like only one thing is missing you have mentioned that you go out there in fall for elk season, but we have never seen any pictures of elk. Have you ever had any luck?

I think because of the terrain there, they have to be brought out in pieces.


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528792 12/12/20 01:14 PM
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We score on average about every other year. I've posted some elk pics in other threads, but tried to keep this one about pond stuff or at least stuff that happens around the pond. In the spirit of that here's an elk pic by the pond! Lol

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528793 12/12/20 01:23 PM
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Aeration holes had remained unchanged as far as I could tell from the low res pics. A couple days the pic never came through due to cell signal. Then weather blew in wednesday night/ Thursday morning. The pump ran all day Thursday with very little sun so it pulled the batteries down close to the low voltage disconnect point. Friday morning the solar power shutdown as soon as the big pump tried to come on. So no pumps ran Friday and no pumps have ran today. More snow expected today, full sun expected tomorrow and some more snow Monday.

This pic just came in. Getting into the nitty gritty now. Bottom of the third inning.

We will see how the holes respond over the next couple days. Taking bets that, when the pumps turn back on, the diffuser with the pipe opens up first!

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/12/20 01:30 PM.

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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528859 12/14/20 02:13 PM
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Well not sure if this is enough to call it definitive or not. Even more snow coming today. 10" or more possible. 12-18" already on the ground. Luckily the camera was able to get a pic out. The far dual diffuser with the pipe is open and is 2 or 3 times bigger than the quad hole. The quad is open - although very small. All other holes are toast.

Anyone disagree? Have we proven doming was the problem and the pipe is the solution?? Need more time to be definitive??

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/14/20 02:20 PM.

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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528930 12/16/20 02:11 PM
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More interesting developments.

Power has been in and out today due to weather so pumps have not run for their full amount of time. More snow coming over the next two days. Clearly no issue with lines freezing up so far.

I think the extra 1/2HP of pump is helping punch holes this year. No way to measure that, it is just my gut feeling. Also have to consider we moved two of the four solar diffusers closer to natural obstructions that we thought would help fight the doming. Quad is very close to the edge of the water and some fallen trees in the water. Single is very close to a dead standing tree. The close dual, with no pipe and no natural obstructions, is the diffuser most clearly having a battle with doming. The "doughnut pattern" in the snow shows it perfectly. I THINK once the dome gets far enough off the water the doughnut pattern won't show up anymore.

Hopefully my buddy will get up there this month to test DO! That is the ultimate test.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/16/20 03:26 PM.

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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528938 12/16/20 09:15 PM
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Interesting. I think more time is needed.


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
esshup #528953 12/17/20 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by esshup
Interesting. I think more time is needed.

The good thing is ALL I have is time!! LOL


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528954 12/17/20 07:56 AM
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Which one has the pipe?

So the variations are very interesting indeed. I would think the one most likely to stay open will be the one which reaches the surface with the greatest associated water velocity. There is a de-icer that is a available that is built on this principle of moving water to maintain open ice.

I think the pipe idea is a good idea because I think it make the water moved more efficient and it concentrates the energy over a smaller area. A bigger pipe over the quad might even be better. Anyways so far so good!

Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #528967 12/17/20 01:22 PM
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Jpsdad - The 12' dual has the pipe. So far it has been the first hole to reopen every single time. The pipe is not over the plume and no air from the diffuser actually goes through the pipe. The pipe is sunk in the mud and the diffuser is right up against the pipe as close as I can get it. All the pipe is doing is prevent the dome from fully forming. I THINK the sun on the pipe is melting just enough of a gap for the air to escape and the ice cannot rise.


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #529026 12/19/20 03:06 PM
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Another update.

Good bit more snow fell. Power was down for two days. Holes should have frozen back over pretty good. No pics came due to weather interfering with cell service.

Pumps turned back on this morning at 8:30am MST this pic came at 12:10pm MST. Notice which diffuser has the only hole open - the one with the pipe.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #529077 12/22/20 01:31 PM
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Annnd another update:

More snow has fallen. Neighbor said we have 3' on the driveway. Not so much on the lake as wind usually keeps it blown off. More snow inbound.

Quad hole by shore and fallen trees is open, but it looks a little slushy which makes me think it is struggling some.

Single hole by the standing dead tree is open, but also might be slushy.

Koenders hole is open, but has gotten smaller.

Close dual is basically closed. This is the only diffuser with no type of obstruction to deter ice from doming up.

The far dual with the pipe is open and getting bigger everyday!! It is the darkest color which means open water for sure.

Hopefully some DO data coming soon.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/22/20 01:32 PM.

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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #529183 12/26/20 07:58 AM
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Wondering if this is the final answer??? Does the pipe officially solve the ice doming? Thoughts??

It appears to me that even if the pipe does not completely SOLVE the doming issue it still allows holes to open MUCH sooner than non piped holes so still very valuable.

12.23.20 was VERY cold on the mountain. The high for the day was 6 degrees. It was around 4 degrees for most of the day. (the camera always shows a higher temp. It is in a metal security box that heats up with even the slightest bit of sun on it)The power stayed on and pumps ran all day, but they struggled to keep holes open. Maybe just due to the extreme cold? I don't know. I would guess my water temp is down to 33 degrees or high 32s. Maybe at extreme cold air temps like that water temps of 32-33 degrees will struggle to keep a hole open no matter what? Just another theory at this point. Anyway here is the pic from 12.23. It had me a little nervous that maybe even the pipe wasn't going to be enough.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Then here is the pic from 12.24.20. The low temp was 4 degrees, but the high got up to 31 degrees. The diffuser hole with the pipe opened right back up while the other solar holes completely vanished. The close dual diffuser has the most aggressive plume of any of the diffusers. It is in shallower water and closer to the valve box by a long way. Interesting that it cannot keep a hole open. Also interesting that the koenders opened up when the aggressive dual cannot. We did have 20 and 30 mph winds for a couple days so that obviously helps. The pic from 12.25.20 looks identical to 12.24. No sign of the close dual hole at all. That holes' death is ruled a homicide by doming....

Pic from 12.24.20
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/26/20 09:06 AM.

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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #529187 12/26/20 11:16 AM
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I will reserve comments until the O2 and temp readings come in. I'd love to see the temp profile for the pond from just below the ice to the bottom in the deepest part of the pond, then correlate that to the depth that the diffusers are placed at. I'd love to see you do something next year, but I'll not say what it is until the temp profiles come back.

I'm going to check on a system that was installed to keep ice from forming around a pier, and I will report back once I see how it's going this year.


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #529188 12/26/20 03:16 PM
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Scott,

You are a moderator, and Consultant. You playing "I have a secret" with a member on this forum is a Johnson move. Man up or shut up.

Rant complete.


Chad,

Get ready to write your PHD thesis on high altitude solar powered aeration after this year year. You have earned it!! Great work.


Brian

The one thing is the one thing
A dry fly catches no fish
Try not to be THAT 10%
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