Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site New WE/SMB/YP/RES Pond near Ft Wayne Indiana

Been saving my pennies and reading the the pond boss threads for years and I really appreciate all the great info on here. Now that I have the funds, I’m hoping to start construction this summer. I want to do this right the first time. My pond goals are: look good from the back porch, Fishing (other than the common largemouth bass/bluegill), small beach for swimming, and hopefully relatively low maintenance (other than an aeration system and maybe feeding once or twice a week).

The pond location is in a shallow valley and the US soil mapping says it a silty clay loam (I’m planning on doing some test pits in early summer to confirm). The total watershed area is approximately 7 acres, and I was hoping for a 1 to 1.5 acre pond. Because the valley is shallow, there is still significant excavation required to achieve a pond of 8 ft deep as well as about 30% of the pond area at 14 ft deep. I was also planning on setting it up so that I could drain the pond and could have the overflow pulled from the bottom or top of the pond. Pond would be roughly lima bean shaped (hopefully my attachment worked).

I’m also considering a small pond of about 30ft x 50ft upstream of the main pond so that I can raise forage fish or experiment. For forage, I was thinking I would add bluntnose or fathead minnow and spotfin shiner if I can source them (maybe Bill Cody can help me out .

Wanted to get some thoughts on my plan and had had a few questions I was hoping to get feedback on:
1- Would it be a significant benefit to make the pond a bit larger? If I’m able to acquire a bit of extra land, I could make the pond up to about 2 acres.
2 - I’ve read that Mat Rayl in Russiaville IN, and hoosier pond pros may be good options for pond builders. Any other suggestions on good pond builders just north of the Fort Wayne Indiana area?
3- Suggestions for fish structure or bedding areas?
4- I assume I would start with the FHM and spotfin shiners, then add YP and RES, then finally add the SMB and a few WE (as a bonus fish). Thoughts or guidance on this stocking plan?

Any thoughts appreciated, thanks!

I think you're in the right place.
esshup will be a big help for ya as he knows a bit about Hoosier Pond.. :-))
I like your choice of species for sure.. If I can add 1 piece of advice on this project it would be TAKE YOUR TIME and be patient. Discussions will follow I'm sure and beings you are in an area that I'm sure you will have some great support in, I'll let those folks get you started.
Great to have you on board here, I think you'll enjoy the process!

I have a similar pond, but have GSH rather than spotfin, and also have lake chubsuckers and papershell crayfish. I added stone and boulder spawning structure for the SMB and they have spawned. I went slow adding 10 SMB each in 2 consecutive years after populations of the other species were well established. Have not seen any of the RES, but the YP, GSH, and LCS have all reproduced well. The pond has only been fished a few times, but the SMB growth was beyond my expectations. Lots of food and only 20 original SMB colonizers in a 1 acre pond probably accounts for this. No WE in my pond though. Been too busy with new ponds and other habitat enhancements to fish. I did make time for the deer season though. My neighbor who fishes my ponds seems pretty happy. He has also trapped 18 muskrats out of one of my wetlands so far this year, and there are more in there. He needs to trap more out of my ponds as well. They breed like rats and eat all of the emergent plants, not to mention undermining the banks and dams! He cleaned a half dozen beaver out of one pond last year and a single one out of one of my wetlands this year. Glad that he likes trapping!

If you are near FtWayne spotfins and bluntnose(BNM) are no problem to obtain. For WE/SMB/YP/RES you will want your WE to be a minor player as a bonus fish (6-8/ac) because your current forage choices are limited as to number of species. Reduced pellet feeding frequency of 1-2 per week will reduce the overall carrying capacity. I am not sure the YP-RES will be able to sustain a healthy reproducing spotfin-BNM combination.

RES will not likely reproduce enough to add significantly to the forage availability. LMB do not get much bigger than 11"-12" with just RES as main food items; thus SMB-WE- larger YP will likely behave/grow similarly. My experience is the WE will heavily target the larger spotfins and noticeably or significantly limit their reproduction & recruitment unless you have very good amounts of refuge areas as weed beds. To enhance the forage, initially stock some papershell crayfish to help defray the predation pressure of SMB on the minnows (SFS/BNM). WE/SMB/YP/RES will all frequently eat various growth stages of papershells. Use only papershells for NE Indiana. IF it were my pond I would seriously consider also adding GSH to insure there are large shiners (7"-9") year round to act a brood shiners. With the added crays and GSH the fishery will achieve higher quality and would support a few more WE / ac.

Keep in mind that enlarging the pond beyond 1 ac will also enlarge the costs of maintaining it with labor, chemicalization, and managements efforts. Instead of enlarging the main pond beyond 1.2-1.5 ac use the money to build an additional pond (3rd one) of 0.2-0.5 ac (6-9ft deep) . You may need more added forage than you think. This can supply lots of added fishery benefits for forage species, panfish (YP-RES) and maybe grow out small WE or HSB to add to the main pond. Lots of fish if done correctly can be grown in 0.2-0.3 ac.

Congrats on the pond project - I manage several cool water species fisheries in NE and love your plans.

Matt and Scott are great resources - ring them both and start the discussion. Proceed with confidence.

Follow Bill's advice, he wrote the book, I'm just a Cody apostle.

On crayfish - Per Cody use papershells, not northerns. Northern adults top out at a size invulnerable to the gape of most SMB and WE and can lead to major issues [denuding macophytes, turbidity, excessive burrows, etc.] I believe papershell adult max size allows their populations to be more effectively managed.

In order to help relieve pressure the forage base I would strongly consider NOT adding spawning structure for the SMB. They will still pull off occasional beds on the clay without rock beds, but you don't need major SMB recruitment anyhow as forage base will be a larger concern. However, if you do end up building SMB beds I elevate mine using a pallet so they do not become buried in silt/organic matter after a few years. My bed designs are somewhere here on the forum. They worked very well and addressed all the issues I encountered in my previous several seasons of SMB production.

GSH will hammer larval fish of all species, and while Bill's obviously correct they add another layer of forage, I wonder the significance of their predation impact on larval SFS and BNM. I raised FHM and GSH in a cell this Summer and had almost zero FHM recruitment, but the GSH were all robust...HMMMMM. I am assuming GSH focused on zooplankton [had dense phytoplankton bloom all Summer which also was strange] and larval FHM all Summer long - makes sense. Just something to consider...GSH do impact a fishery in a significant way - there are pros and cons, I still don't know how I feel about GSH role in my fisheries and I've been messing with them for over 10 years. Bill wouldn't recommend them without the direct experience with them, so he must have witnessed SFS/BNM and GSH coexist well.

One last thing to consider: Purchase trained SMB and YP - will help relieve pressure off your forage base significantly. Scott and Matt both can source the trained YP for you [Lake Erie genetics], the SMB you may need to train yourself in cages. It's not difficult, but start with small SMB it's much easier [1-2"].

Lastly - if you will have a dock you can provide supplemental feeding to your WE, SMB and YP using live, then cut bait. I use BG when available, but also buy frozen Tilapia fillets and Catfish bellies. Not all fish train on fillets, but those that do grow fast and are a blast to feed...they become pets.

Initially I would use TJ's advice for omitting the GSH due to, when abundant, adult GSH can impact the recruitment of most all fish fry. GSH can always be added later if the depleted forage basis needs enhancement. Water clarity has an influence with ability of predation of fish fry by GSH. GSH can become overabundant so fry predation can be a concern for recruitment of SMB and YP. Nature's Rule - The fewer predators there are per acre the more numbers of forage that survive. Lack of forage is often dependent upon too many predators!!

If the pond has adequate weed cover the SFS, BNM, crays, small YP, and limited RES as forage base should grow decent SMB and some WE. Good predator monitoring and harvest to control or manage the predatory pressure on the forage species should produce a decent fishery. Keep in mind that the larger the pond is the more effort it takes for predator harvest and monitoring of the forage species community. All this management knowledge and technique is out of or beyond the common knowledge of most 'regular' pond owners. Learning good pond management is a learning curve.

Listen to what Bill and TJ are saying.

The key to having a pond with great fish is to address the fish habitat first. Do all the planning and acquiring of material for said habitat before the construction starts, then have a plan on where it goes in the pond, so as soon as the pond excavation is done the habitat can go in. Without the proper habitat the pond won't do that well. Habitat is also underwater weeds for cover for the minnows. Even stocking GSH, without habitat to reproduce on, they will be extirpated from the pond if not the 1st year, the 2nd year. Weeds/cover with small openings for habitat for the forage fish, rocks with small openings for habitat for the crayfish. Up here, not only in the shallow water but also in the deep water to create habitat for those species when ice is on the pond and they can't utilize the shallow water.

It's better to take an extra year to plan and get all the materials on-site than to rush and have to put cover/structure/habitat in the pond from a boat.

Any rocks that are found when constructing the pond, set aside to be put back in there. Any large trees that are in the way, save a bunch to put back in there. While wood in a pond is good for fish habitat, if it's near rocks it seems to be MUCH more attractive to the fish.

Don't be in a rush to throw the predator fish in there, stock lots of forage fish and let them get established first. As for SMB reproducing, I've seen them reproduce in a pond with just bucket loads of pea gravel strategically placed, or on TJ's spawning beds. In a 1 ac pond you only need 1 pair to pull off a successful spawn. I've seen SMB overeat their forage base with Golden Shiners, Yellow Perch, Fatheads and Redear in the pond. Not enough habitat in there for the forage fish.

Remember that proper "HARVEST" is an integral part of pond management. Type of number of harvest is a big part of maintaining the quality and fish size structure of the fishery.

As for feeding, I really recommend feeding daily. The results with ponds that have a daily or 2x day feeding schedule compared to a pond where feeding is inconsistent or non-existent is beyond what people imagine. Not only are you feeding the predators if you stock feed trained fish, (that will also take some pressure off of the forage fish) but you will also be feeding the forage base, and the healthier the forage base the more eggs they can lay and the more successful the forage base will be.

All great answers.

But, I’ll relate a time when Lusk bushwhacked me. I heard that he was going to be at a local farm store talking about ponds. He is a Purina spokesperson and the store was selling it.

About ten minutes into his presentation, he said “ Hey Dave Davidson, what’s the most important consideration for a new pond?”. I said a few things about clay content , adequate runoff, etc.

He agreed that those were certainly important but said the most important thing is the water, it’s fertility, balance of alkalinity, Ph, and stocking rates.

That’s when I felt like slapping my forehead and feeling like an idiot.

Well, if your pond does not hold water... I am building a pond now, and that comes first.

Pond Building - the less clay content or poorer the quality of clay in the soil the MORE important it becomes to have the best pond builder. Remember you BUILD a pond and dig a hole. Holes always leak. A well built dug style clay lined pond in NE Indiana should only loose 12"-16" of water due to evaporation during a dry summer. More water loss than 16" is almost always due to leakage. Northern Indiana has between 32"-40" of precipitation per year. This is more than enough rain water to keep a well sealed dug pond full each spring. A watershed, runoff pond is a very different topic.

A dug style pond is a very different construction method compared to a water shed pond built in a low area with a dam. You mention building an upstream small forage pond. Ponds with any sort of stream will just about guaranteed to have green sunfish who are in every Midwest tiny ditch / stream. Plan for them to be present.

If you are a 1st timer building a pond, here are two books you should have. These books can prevent some expensive mistakes.

https://www.pondboss.com/item.asp?id=11

https://www.pondboss.com/item.asp?id=163

If I was building a pond larger than one acre and the fishery was the primary goal for the pond, I would seriously consider enhancing the amount of fish habitat and cover by building a underwater hump that is within 4 to 6 ft of the surface. This will provide an off shore weed bed or area littered with artificial structure that increases the offshore habitat. In my experience it is important to keep a large percentage of the shoreline slope steep (2:1 or 2.5:1) to minimize weeds and filamentous algae. One remote area of the large pond can have the shallow areas or less steep slope. That method keeps your weeds and artificial habitat off the most used part (maybe swimming) of the "front" esthetic area of the pond. Your problematic weeds will always grow in shallow water which make shoreline fishing very difficult. Ponds need weeds to compete against the filamentous algae which is almost a constant problem in Midwest ponds. Large ponds have lots of shoreline thus they can and will grow lots of weeds that can be very EXPENSIVE to treat and manage because the area or volume of water is LARGE. Large ponds make manual weed removal very difficult and expensive which is why I do not like large ponds. Y

Your contractor will want to incorporate lots of shallow shoreline because it creates the perception of a larger area of water and for them it makes more money by moving less dirt. However they do not have the problem of WEED managing in all that shallow (2'-4') shoreline shallow water areas. Expanses of these shallow areas are WEED FACTORIES. They are productive fish areas BUT very difficult to manage and difficult for anglers to fish the shoreline. Weedy shorelines usually require anglers to fish the outside edges of weed beds from a boat similar to lake fishing.

Thanks for all the great advise!

I got the perfect pond book a couple years back and just ordered Mike Ottos book. Sounds like I'll need to up my feeding frequency and look at ways to increase forage.

Sounds like I have some more researching to do and need to start getting some structure ready to go. I found some inexpensive pallets of bricks with holes and also standard concrete blocks (with the two big holes) which I'll probably pick up to have on-hand.

We assume that you are well aware of this lengthy discussion from Common Pond Q&A archives for great homemade structure ideas. Contact some local cement work contractors. They will have free concrete waste materials such as old sidewalk as excellent rip-rap and habitat along the shoreline.
Link explaining difference between STRUCTURE and COVER
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463#Post92463

Link showing lots of homemade cover.
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463&page=all

I was somewhere with Otto and Lusk. I believe it was in Georgia a lot of years ago. Anyway, somebody in the crowd asked about how to keep a pond from leaking. Lusk started saying something about proper soil mixes. Mike told him "Stop right there. Dirt is porous and it leaks. I've been doing this a long time and if you want a leaky pond, just let me build it."

Nuff said.

The point is, all ponds leak. The secret is to do the dirt work (worst case - a liner) right, so that the leak in minimized.

When working with suspect soils it should become evident quickly. Presence of sand. gravel, or clay with poor plasticity and one needs to amend the liner, somehow, or you'll end up with a serious leak issue down the road which can cost 2-3x the original construction of the pond. I work with guys every day with similar stories - pond cost $12k to build and clay liner install or core trench rebuild is $25k+.

Bentonite disked into the basin with 2' clay liner compacted in 4-6" lifts works, but bentonite can be expensive and it's expansion qualities are usually unknown [it can be 2:1 or 32:1] so application rates is unknown unless you want to money whip it and assume the low end.

I build ponds using polymer liners in suspect areas as more of a patch approach to reduce cost and labor significantly. It's exponentially cheaper than bentonite typically due to freight cost [unless you live in TX or WY] but also in labor as you're only applying as a patch in suspect areas, and application rate never varies [always 4 oz./10 sq ft]. I've rehabbed two ponds leaking 4-6" daily due to gravel veins with a half unit of polymer [$200] and it took an hour of time. Packed lifts of high plasticity clay and boom, holds like tupperware. I save about $2,000 annually in well electricity cost and saved 10s of thousands on clay liner install rehab work.

Bottom line, treat suspect areas in a dry basin - it will save you years of heartbreak and tens of thousands in repairs later.

TJ's not just a pretty face.

Sock Puppet - Reg Date: 15/04/09 03:11 PM - 26 posts ?

About the same for the Techno VIking!

Ways to get a large post count:

1) Be extremely knowledgeable with the time and energy to share your knowledge with the forum,

2) Love the sound of your own typing, or

3) Pick a prolific forum member and repost everything they say, using more words in an attempt to look original.

There may be more, but I don't exhibit any of them either.