Hello there. I've been gathering a lot of info from this site and appreciate everyone's experience and knowledge yet I haven't been able to decide on what I should add to build the ecosystem.
My pond is almost finished and will be approximately 1 acre in size, water table supplied and primary focus will be Rainbow Trout and possibly hornpout, NO bass. It has a max depth of 20', a section that is 10' with a sharp taper to shore. I'm not looking to feed the fish but want a self sustaining ecosystem. I'm in southern Maine so there really isn't a concern of overheating or freezing solid given the depths. What should I add for forage for the RBT, feed for the forage and possible vegetation? Does anyone have experience with RBT in New England ponds or RBT suggestions overall?
Not looking for advice on physical structure. Need advice on forage base, how to provide for them and aquatic vegetation. I wanted to get some knowledge before I got a stocking permit from the state.
Welcome to PondBoss. Say just to be sure, is hornpout bullhead? If so ... and if you do not prefer them over trout, I think I would abstain from them. Trout are very efficient utilizing small prey and so it will help your trout a lot if don't have to compete for them. One our members, wbuffetjr, has a pond in the mountains where his trout are growing very fast on two primary prey species(Gammarus & Fathead Minnow). See his thread below ... it describes what he has done for habitat improvement for forage. It appears to be working very well.
I notice that Fathead Minnow (FHM) are not native to Maine but also noticed that the state hosts established reproducing populations. Also notice that their use as bait is allowed in Maine. You might check with your state to see if stocking them in your pond will be blessed. As an invasive, its a pretty weak player compared to most others. Where it might be a problem is if your watershed hosts water that is ideal for them but also hosts native species that cannot outcompete them. If your water lies within the infested water's geographic extents, you could do no harm, if your bait bucket was accidently bumped over and its contents spilled in your pond.
You must establish Gammarus. This is would be the back bone of your food chain. Another good player would be assellus aquaticus ... particularly ... if you will be getting terrestrial leave inputs into your pond. They will grow through the winter recycling these leaves.
Ideally, ALL of the forage in your pond is food for the trout even if the forage is as big as it will get as an adult. Then it is up to you to control the standing weight of trout below a threshold that would over-browse the forage. If you do this, the growth of your trout will approach the maximum potential growth which is only limited by how much they want to eat
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
If you have a private pond, and it doesnt have a single double digit bass... Do you REALLY have a private pond?
LOL! I say double digit bass isn't the above all end all. They are the most costly prize, to be sure. But when one thinks about what they could have had if this hadn't been the goal, maybe for many it just isn't worth it.
I say it isn't your private pond UNLESS it is the fishery you want. I am reminded of friend who wanted a crappie pond. Above all else, he wanted crappie and everything else was to revolve around that. His wants were immediately affronted with no's and shouldn't do that, etc. He got lots of advice but in the end every bit of it actually favored growing Large LMB and BG forage. As a consequence, he has beautiful trophy bass but very few crappie. He has the pond they want but not the pond he wanted. So I ask you, does he have a private pond?
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Golden and Common are common around here with Fathead being mentioned. Thanks for the tip on Gammarus and Assellus Aquaticus, I'll read up on them and the link you provided. I have a lot of hardwood growing around the pond and there will be plenty of leaves in the fall.
Thanks for the info. I find advice from experienced people much better than the large amount of conflicting and confusing information on the internet.
Golden and Common are common around here with Fathead being mentioned. Thanks for the tip on Gammarus and Assellus Aquaticus, I'll read up on them and the link you provided. I have a lot of hardwood growing around the pond and there will be plenty of leaves in the fall.
Just as a heads up. I would not stock Goldens and I also think Commons get larger than would be ideal. For the fish prey, you need fish are that accessible to the trout (not too large) and that will not compete in the trout's niche. If FHM are not an option, investigate natives that are similar in size as adults <3.5"
Other options may be species of fundulus genera that naturally occur abundantly in still waters with fish. I am not very familiar with the eastern states species and distributions, but I do know the greatest variety is out there. So around here, the blackstripe topminnow is a good candidate. This is part of the fun of it all, I think, learning new things about local ecology. A small fish would be great compliment to the trout. Just be careful with your choice in that it doesn't become too abundant so as to reduce the production of gammarus and asselus aquaticus. This should not be a problem if they top out in length in the 2" to 4" range. Be particularly careful with your identifications. The minnow like fish may be more important to the trout during winter when they are force to occupy the same water (the warm water near bottom).
Last edited by jpsdad; 12/10/2010:02 AM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Any idea where I can purchase the Gammarus Fasciatus and Assellus Aquaticus? From what I read the G Fasciatus is cold tolerant, what about the A Aquaticus? That link of wbuffetjr DO journey was very informative. While my pond will definitely freeze over my weather isn't as harsh. I had been thinking of adding air and the link is giving me plenty of ideas and sources.
You could probably source locally adapted Gammarus and Asselus in Maine near your home. Gammarus love weeds but also utilize rocks for cover. They are easy to find where they are present. Asselus and be found in similar water but can also be found in stagnant waters that may be to warm for Gammarus. They are around. To find local ones search on fishing/Maine/and then the species. You will likely find articles where one or the other is an abundant species of importance in that water.
As for purchasing, I have never found a good source for Gammarus. There is a vendor from Texas that sells hyallela Azteca under "Gammarus" . Not the same thing and they will neither achieve the size nor the standing weights most gammarus do. Wouldn't hurt to have them but like the others you can find them locally adapted to your climate.
If it costs a bit of time or money to establish these species ... don't sweat it ... they will pay for themselves many times over. Delay adding the Trout (maybe even the minnow) until you have good forage populations going.
Last edited by jpsdad; 12/10/2012:58 PM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
My old french Grandfather taught me to fish for pout and how to clean and cook them along with snapping turtles. He would eat anything that moved. So yes I do like them, dipped in milk, into flour, salt, and pepper then pan fried.
Don't think I'll add them to the pond after what people have warned. From what old timers have said I'll get them whether I want to or not though.
My Grandfather used to like them for breakfast. I have some great memories of that and fishing with him for them. Get this, he stocked his pond with them from a wet gunny sack instead of bucket.
Anyways, thanks to our member Snipe, he has shared a place where you could buy a good quantity of scuds (or at least scud like amphipods). This place also sells native plants and I think their prices look good and that the quantities they provide are sufficient to get both amphipods and desired water weeds established. Their webpage with scuds and plantscan be found here.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Mainahs70, that is a good resource that jpsdad posted. Here is another one for plants, although you will have to go through their catalog with a fine tooth comb to find their underwater (submerged) pond plants, which are very few in number. They offer many marginal plants. https://www.cardnonativeplantnurser...-25/files/assets/basic-html/page-1.html#
Thanks for the links, much appreciated. A lot of selections to be made.
I have the direct number for the IFW biologist and will call him tomorrow. Seems like he'll be helpful with flora and fauna too.
Another note, the excavator is back to dig a section deeper. There are a few 15-20 ft deep sections but one around 5 ft. I do have a some leads on structure components and this winter to plan it out.
Update on pond. Finished excavating in December and ice has been out for a couple of weeks. Its nearly full and I put in 20 doz golden shiners, a couple of yards of half-decomposed leaves and vegetation and buckets of pond muck in one location. When the clay dries up around the pond I'll work on two other areas and stock a lot more shiners and maybe crayfish. I do have a question regarding vegetation around pond. What would be a good ground cover around the pond for erosion control considering poor soil to start and zone 5A? What about shoreline and shallow area plants?
Bare clay will be really hard to get things started. Do you have the option of getting some top soil spread? Crown vetch, while it can be invasive, is about the only thing I know that can tackle crap soils in our climate. Besides Poison Ivy and whip grass of course.
"Hairy vetch and common vetch are widely used as cool-season cover crops. They are annuals that can easily be killed when time comes to plant the main crop. Crown vetch is an extremely aggressive perennial that is used for erosion control, not as a cover crop."
"Common Name: Crown Vetch Scientific Name: Securigera varia (L.) Lassen, formerly Coronilla varia L. Legal Status: Restricted
Propagation and sale of this plant are prohibited in Minnesota. Transportation is only allowed when in compliance with Minnesota Statute 18.82. Although Restricted Noxious Weeds are not required to be controlled or eradicated by law, landowners are strongly encouraged to manage these invasive plants on their properties in order to reduce spread into new areas. Minnesota Noxious Weed Law."
We grow a lot of different plants at our farm, but I am NOT AN EXPERT on ground covers. However, I thought planting crown vetch was on the "naughty" list for most applications. (I do not know the advisory for Maine.)
I do have experience fighting invasive plants on our farm. It is NOT an enjoyable hobby.
If you have an annual garden that is largely barren during the fall and winter, you can plant a temporary ground cover to protect against erosion during the colder months. For example, annual ryegrass (Lolium multiflorum) grows quickly from seed and withstands temperatures well below freezing -- it grows to a 3-foot maximum height, producing a beautiful swaying action in the winter winds. As spring arrives, you simply till the grass into the garden before seeding occurs. Your resulting topsoil has added nutrients from the cut ryegrass so that newly transplanted annual plants have a boost for spring and summer growth."
Annual ryegrass is a pretty common starter for erosion control. Use it that first season when you finish your pond dirt work at a bad time (like the middle of August). You can then plant your "permanent" ground cover the next spring at the optimal time for your plant species and climate.
"Hairy vetch and common vetch are widely used as cool-season cover crops. They are annuals that can easily be killed when time comes to plant the main crop. Crown vetch is an extremely aggressive perennial that is used for erosion control, not as a cover crop."
"Common Name: Crown Vetch Scientific Name: Securigera varia (L.) Lassen, formerly Coronilla varia L. Legal Status: Restricted
Propagation and sale of this plant are prohibited in Minnesota. Transportation is only allowed when in compliance with Minnesota Statute 18.82. Although Restricted Noxious Weeds are not required to be controlled or eradicated by law, landowners are strongly encouraged to manage these invasive plants on their properties in order to reduce spread into new areas. Minnesota Noxious Weed Law."
We grow a lot of different plants at our farm, but I am NOT AN EXPERT on ground covers. However, I thought planting crown vetch was on the "naughty" list for most applications. (I do not know the advisory for Maine.)
I do have experience fighting invasive plants on our farm. It is NOT an enjoyable hobby.
My experience with Crown Vetch is that it is NOT a good competitor in fertile soil. Its not easy to establish in undisturbed soils. It really likes depleted and/or disturbed soils with little humus where it can stake the claim that few others can. In OK, the state highway department used it extensively to control erosion on highway cuts where it is very effective at holding soil. It has not taken over the tall grass prairie where there is little good habitat for it. It's really not the Russian thistle or hairy vetch kind of invasive. That said, if Maine prohibits it then don't use it.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
I just read about crown vetch. It seems like a good choice to get vegetation growing. What's the difference between that and Hairy Vetch?
Hairy Vetch grows much taller and is an annual. It seeds each year and can be problematic. I've seen it grow as high as my hip. Its flowers are light to dark purple.
Crown vetch is a perennial. Where I have seen it growing, it grows to just about knee high. It is toxic to horses but I don't know just how great that risk is. You definitely don't want to feed horses the hay but whether horses will eat much of it when provided other good forage is something others can comment on. Crown vetch looks manicured compared to Hairy Vetch which looks very unkempt. The blooms of Crown Vetch vary from white to pink to light purplish. In stands, I've seen, the color of blooms didn't have consistent color. Honey bees are highly attracted to Crown Vetch while Bumble Bees are attracted to Hairy Vetch.
I wouldn't stock trout until the water clears up. Trout do not survive well in continually muddy water. Muddy water is too hard on the trout's gills. Allow it to clear then stock trout. I looked up minnows for Maine. As noted the FHM and maybe the dace would probably be the best forage forage for the pond trout especially if minnows have some decent amount of refugia areas during the summer breeding season. You may have to collect redbelly dace from local waters such as beaver ponds. Supplimentally feed the trout pellets and this will relieve some of the predatory pressure from the minnows. Common shiners will basically not spawn in ponds.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/07/2109:14 AM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Thanks for the info guys. I think I'll go with the crown vetch and ryegrass considering how poor the soil is. I read about fountain grass and will try that in select locations along with creeping jenny. Now to dry out the entrance to the pond so I can get to it.
Crown Vetch is native to central and Eastern Europe, and the Caucus region of Asia. It was introduced to the US as early as the mid-1800s, and by the 1950s became widely planted as a groundcover, cover crop, and bank and slope stabilizer along roads and waterways. It is now found across the continental U.S. and in most counties of Minnesota. In Minnesota, it has been planted as a cover crop and used for soil stabilization, but these uses are in decline due to the invasive nature of the plant.
As I read it.
The state of Minnesota along with the every other state had encouraged the use of crown vetch for soil stabilization, manure crops, forage, and fodder for now approaching 200 years. The plant is now a naturalized participant in the ecology of the state.
Quote
Although Restricted Noxious Weeds are not required to be controlled or eradicated by law, landowners are strongly encouraged to manage these invasive plants on their properties in order to reduce spread into new areas.
As I read it.
Although the State of Minnesota nurtures thousands of acres of crown vetch along thousands of miles of roads criss-crossing the state, the state will make no effort to eradicate it from state owned lands to protect your property and prevent the seed from being deposited in your soils by birds and other vectors. However, by all means, we encourage you to do whatever you can to eradicate it on your property to prevent its further spread.
Here is an example of Minnesota state sponsored crown vetch.
I liken crown vetch (in a state where its use isn't prohibited) much like I do Gambusia in Kansas. Its an invasive non native that has become ubiquitous in state waters. Can it really be argued that moving some into your pond is compounding the problem? Hardy so. Gams are there to stay and they will fill all spaces they can both contributing to and taking from ancestral ecology and diversity.
Transportation of non-native species is a GD shame that we can squarely put on well meaning scientists who were short sighted and in many cases just plain wrong. A classic case of Will Roger's quote that was added to my signature a few days ago.
Especially where agriculture and state sponsored use is involved, controlling such an invasive is very complicated. The plant offers benefits to agriculture that are often exploited and its use will be continued. This species is naturalized and it is going to fill its place, if it hasn't done so already in the ecology of Minnesota and in every other state where it has been used and conditions support its naturalization. Its a done deal. We will not eradicate it and it will be controlled or inhibited only at the expense of individual land owners.
We need to pick our battles. Rather than focusing on established ... naturalized ... non-natives that cannot be controlled cost effectively without economic incentives, we need to focus on not creating new problems. An example, let's not encourage stocking Rusty crayfish in Nebraska ... (something that has happened on this forum with no opposition) ... which is a problem (I hope) that doesn't presently exist there.
Crown vetch grows on slopes with no topsoil and with no special preparation. Pretty remarkable and YES effective at stabilizing barren poor soils. Can it fail? Yes, when the site incurs substantial erosion before establishment, these ruts will continue to expand while they go unnoticed. But is it ineffective? Hardly, how can you blame it for erosion in soil where it isn't established? That doesn't make sense. The world is full of half-truths that are designed to fit some underlying agenda which is often personal (like one's purpose in life for which he/she is compensated). To be sure, I sympathize with those who think their agenda has some higher purpose. They want to fix a problem which they wish weren't there. Like them, I wish crown vetch weren't here at all but it will fill the spaces it can naturally all on its own from the naturalized population with natural vectors and there is nothing we can do about it.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
I brought in crown vetch to my property before its issues were widely communicated. I wish that I had never planted it. I am not even close to being a purist, but crown vetch is hard to get rid of if it spreads from where you plant it, at least that is so in my neck of the woods. Just sharing my experience...
Did you plant it in food plots for your deer ... or ... to stabilize soil that you disturbed (building your ponds for example)? I'm a bit surprised that you didn't anticipate that it could spread but nothing works better than reality to clarify unknowns. If you want to diminish its influence, I would be glad to offer some suggestions using native plants. Crown vetch isn't a strong competitor when combined with stronger plants. It tends to be an understory plant or may lose its grip on survival altogether.
Where I grew up, the invasive that spread throughout our tall grass prairie is Korean Lespedeza. It's literally everywhere making its living in the understory of the native tall grasses. Its a much stronger invasive than is crown vetch because it is able to establish from seed in existing stands of tall grass. Crown vetch can hardly establish from seed in stands of native grass. The only way it seems to spread is from pure stands where it is able to extend its footprint by extending its rhizomal network into the surroundings. A very strong native grass well suited to marginal soil is Switchgrass.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
I planted crown vetch to stabilize a ditch bank, but it did not work. The canopy actually shades the soil and it washes pretty easily. Grasses are much better for erosion control. The crown vetch is all but gone in that original location now due to 30 years of tree growth that shaded it out. However, when the Indiana Department of Transportation (INDOT) constructed a prairie above a volunteer mitigation wetland on our place, the crown vetch got moved to the prairie where it competes very well. I am actually letting trees grow in this prairie area so it will eventually get shaded out there. INDOT has tried to control it with herbicides, but that has largely failed. Our area was once all forest, so that is OK with me. We are planting more prairie area anyway, so the succession will likely occur as the years go by anyway. It is too dangerous to burn. I know from experience! Fortunately, we had enough hands to get things under control, but I do not burn anymore.
I planted crown vetch to stabilize a ditch bank, but it did not work. The canopy actually shades the soil and it washes pretty easily. Grasses are much better for erosion control.
Yes but crown vetch has never been recommended for stabilizing soils in structures that are intended for carrying water in high volumes. Where crown vetch has exhibited superior performance are on slopes where grass seeds are easily washed away before germinating. The crown vetch seeds are dense and small and some tend to remain on slopes even after rainfall when the planting method is broadcasting. It was a cheap shortcut for DOTs.
Slopes may not absorb sufficient rain water to support the establishment of many grasses from seed. Nowadays new technologies are used to improve grass stand establishment on slopes ... like the netting with seeds interwoven. This provides a mulching effect and keeps seed on the slope. Something like that would have been preferable for your ditch. Where the soil is marginal, its would be beneficial to over seed with a complex of native legumes. Something like this is a good option for any trying to establish coverage on disturbed or barren slopes.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Yes, crown vetch was once recommended by the USDA like multiflora rose and autumn olive. They are a lot more careful after those hard lessons. I planted this on my last area along with oilseed radish. https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/plotspike-clover-blend I then frost-seeded big bluestem this past winter/spring. Clover looks good and radish is gone. We will see how the big bluestem does. This was planted on spoil from the pond that is currently under construction.
Have you considered Brook Trout instead of Rainbows? The brookies could possibly reproduce, but the RBT never will. I would be careful with the golden shiners. The only place I've ever read of them being a real problem was in a trout pond. There was an article several years ago in pondboss about FHM as forage for Brook Trout. It compared the growth of brookies on just an insect diet versus the minnow diet. The differences in growth/size of the brookies after something like 3 and 5 years was AMAZING! You can look up the past article and order it if you are interested. I have a copy, but it is currently at my cabin.
Glad to have another trout guy around!!
Last edited by wbuffetjr; 04/10/2106:59 AM.
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Have you considered Brook Trout instead of Rainbows? The brookies could possibly reproduce, but the RBT never will. I would be careful with the golden shiners. The only place I've ever read of them being a real problem was in a trout pond. There was an article several years ago in pondboss about FHM as forage for Brook Trout. It compared the growth of brookies on just an insect diet versus the minnow diet. The differences in growth/size of the brookies after something like 3 and 5 years was AMAZING! You can look up the past article and order it if you are interested. I have a copy, but it is currently at my cabin.
Glad to have another trout guy around!!
Brookies need colder, cleaner water and are generally less hardy than rainbows. I'm hoping to make this pond self sufficient with as little need for maintenance as possible. Do you have much experience with having both in a pond? I'm also looking for a supplier of fatheads that will ship to Maine as I haven't been able to source locally.
The benefit of FHM in with the brookies was probably with FHM the brookies had both minnow and invertebrate forage items. More food is usually better for growing larger fish. GSH with the trout likely resulted in fewer invertebrates because large non-edible GSH were eating numerous small inverts and then less food for trout.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/11/2103:34 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Brookies need colder, cleaner water and are generally less hardy than rainbows. I'm hoping to make this pond self sufficient with as little need for maintenance as possible. Do you have much experience with having both in a pond? I'm also looking for a supplier of fatheads that will ship to Maine as I haven't been able to source locally.
I just assumed in Maine your water would be cold enough. I have had both rainbows and brookies. I did not find the rainbows to be perceptibly hardier than the brookies at all. IMO brookies taste MUCH better and are MUCH prettier. I was also thinking about the maintenance part - I hated having to pay the fish truck every year for rainbows that had zero chance of reproduction. My pond is also has a huge number of FHM.
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Hi Mainahs70 - I'm in Upstate NY and starting 2 farm pond rehab projects that seem to be much like yours. Also focusing on trout...probably Brookies. What did you end up doing with your food chain...gammarus scuds and fathead minnows? Plants? Structure/habitat? Any lessons learned / tips that you'd be willing to share? Thanks
I stocked 200 golden shiners in April 2021 and 1500 fatheads in June 2021. The various pond plants I borrowed from local ponds are doing well. I've noticed many very small fathead/goldens around the pond this week so they did fine over winter. A local hatchery, Shy Beaver, put 100 brookies and 100 rainbows ( 75 weight ) in late March after ice out and no floaties so far. I did get a bucket of feed to supplement as they become accustomed to their new home. Fed them today and they fed very well and they look terrific with some rainbows looking almost green. Very pretty. Will be ordering some Water Celery and other plants from Kesters next week to help oxygenate and provide cover for the GS/FHM. I had my pond dug Dec 2020 and its water table fed. Sounds like yours will already have good chemistry and ecosystem whereas mine had nothing. If you are draining yours build the habitats before you refill, so much easier. I put in some tree stumps, logs, Christmas trees and lobster traps after the pond mostly filled and it was much harder than planning ahead. Plan ahead and put a lot of thought into it and it will be so much easier. I'm no pro as this is my first pond but will share my experiences. Good luck!
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