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Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
#528200 11/29/20 12:19 PM
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Several of the Pond Boss experts giving me pond advice have strongly recommended adding forage ponds. I was going to trap some of the baitfish in my local stream (south-central Kansas) and pick some candidates for forage production. Obviously, these baitfish would be well-adapted for my climate.

However, I pulled the relevant regulation for Kansas:

"Wild-caught baitfish may be used as live bait only within the common drainage where caught and shall not be transported upstream across any dam or barrier that prohibits the normal passage of fish."

Does this regulation allow a person to take baitfish to their forage ponds for non-commercial use as long as the ponds would overflow downstream of the location of taking? Or does it only allow baitfish to be used as bait, and dis-allow their usage for stocking a forage pond?

In addition to the common baitfish, there are even some threatened minnow species in my creek. I was also considering growing some of these scarce minnows and making future releases back into the creek to enhance the local population.

I have not seen any regulations regarding the taking of the threatened species of baitfish. The regulations I have seen, typically have pertained to any operations in a stream or river that would negatively affect the HABITAT of the threatened species. (Such as dams and obstructions, low-water crossings, modifying the stream channel, etc.) Could a person raise a threatened baitfish in their own forage ponds and then release them back to their natural range to aid in species rehabilitation?

Finally, I have previously discussed on the forum catching some of my Red Shiners and transporting them to other members if I happened to be travelling in their direction. I even discussed doing this for members in a different state! (Last time I was talking to Snipe he said that transporting sportfish from one state to another is almost certainly prohibited in ALL circumstances, except for licensed commercial operators.)

I would assume these regulations would also apply to baitfish. However, would it be permissible for a person to raise legally-taken baitfish in their forage pond, and subsequently transfer the OFFSPRING to another PB member in a different state? Would it matter if you gave them the baitfish for free (non-commercial), or charged them $1 (to make if commercial, but from an unlicensed operation)?

I would like to read a discussion from anyone with a background on these topics. It doesn't have to apply to Kansas regulations, please discuss the regulations applying to your own state.

DISCLAIMER - All of the comments below are merely for discussion purposes. None of this constitutes actual legal advice!

Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528203 11/29/20 01:56 PM
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Quote
"Wild-caught baitfish may be used as live bait only within the common drainage where caught and shall not be transported upstream across any dam or barrier that prohibits the normal passage of fish."

Does this regulation allow a person to take baitfish to their forage ponds for non-commercial use as long as the ponds would overflow downstream of the location of taking? Or does it only allow baitfish to be used as bait, and dis-allow their usage for stocking a forage pond?

My take on this is that they refer to barriers that are in place of the natural drainage. So if you caught baitfish in your creek, for example, you could fish with them in any waters that drain into the creek below the nearest upstream barrier (barrier of the creek itself) of the location you caught them. So you could fish with them in your ponds or any body of water draining into the watershed of your creek where entry into the watershed is below the nearest upstream barrier of the creek. (My take not necessarily the state's). An exception should be made if there is natural barrier that prevents fish migration (like for example a waterfall of sufficient height to prevent migration). Such a natural barrier might have historically limited the number species finding their way above the barrier by other means.

IMHO, a regulation like this should have underlying it, a spirit a useful purpose as opposed to an excuse to make criminals of well meaning right-minded people who are causing no harm. Likewise, people should see the spirit of the code and make every effort to comply and cause no harm. This includes abstaining from a right, even though legal, when one recognizes a risk that should have been protected. I hate ambiguous regulation that is open to abuse by enforcement in particular. If a law isn't clear it shouldn't be enforced at all. But in my humble opinion your dams on your place are not the barriers to which they refer.[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

With regard to transporting Red Shiner. If you're properly licensed I don't see any problem. As long as you are appropriately licensed in states that require them, you should be able to transport them to other states (to locations of their natural range) in accordance with their rules. I think you need a aquaculture license to do this in Kansas. In Texas one would also need a brood collection license in order to get the original brood stock (if obtaining wild stock).

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/29/20 02:30 PM.
Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528204 11/29/20 04:01 PM
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This is one of those cases where the State of Kansas could do a great service to itself, its waters, and the public by simply evaluating the risks and defining the geographic regions where bait can be transported within. No obfuscation and there should be much increased compliance.

Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528206 11/29/20 04:28 PM
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I live in Texas, so I cannot comment for Kansas, but here you can can take any fish as long as it is taken legally with the proper license. However, if you want to transport them, it states you cannot take water from a public waterway or lake. So essentially, you have to bring a cooler/container of water with you, put the fish you catch in that water, then you can transport them. You CANNOT transport them and release them in another public waterway/lake. This is how a local Game Warden explained it to me (and showed me the law) when I asked about catching fish to stock in my private lake.

Here is the exact excerpt he showed me: "Live fish, including personally caught live bait, cannot be transported from the water body where the fish were caught in or aboard a vessel in water from the water body where the fish were caught. Personally caught live bait can be used in the water body where it was caught."

If Kansas is anything like Texas, just call your local Game Warden. I have always found them extremely helpful when it comes to stuff like this. They are typically sportsman themselves, and are happy to help you out.

Last edited by BranClanFarm; 11/29/20 04:30 PM.
Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528216 11/29/20 11:51 PM
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Thanks for all of the advice.

jpsdad, I think your interpretation of the baitfish regulation is more likely correct than mine - and certainly yours makes more sense. I also agree they could write and post regulatory information in a much more "useful to the public" manner.

None of my searches on the state's website produced the actual relevant regulations.

BranClan, thanks for the Texas version. I always like to know how they do it in other states, because that may help clarify a murky regulation in my state. Your Texas rule sounds like it is designed to stop the spread of zebra mussels rather than prevent the spread of nuisance bait fish.

Your idea to call the Game Warden is obviously my best course of action. I believe Kansas even added a Fisheries Biologist a few years ago that was supposed to answer questions of that nature.

Now that I am getting closer to starting my ponds, I definitely need to find out if we have a good biologist able to answer both legal and practical questions.

Thanks, Rod

Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528222 11/30/20 05:06 AM
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Well, if the law is pretty clear about something, you could get in trouble. But, I doubt that the average GW is going to spend time worrying about it. However, catch that same GW on the wrong day and you get a ticket. And, honorable intentions don't help.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
Dave Davidson1 #528239 11/30/20 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Davidson1
Well, if the law is pretty clear about something, you could get in trouble. But, I doubt that the average GW is going to spend time worrying about it. However, catch that same GW on the wrong day and you get a ticket. And, honorable intentions don't help.
Yep, GW's are often waiting to check livewells at the boat ramps. Zebra mussels changed everything down here.

Last edited by FireIsHot; 11/30/20 08:42 AM. Reason: ADD

AL
Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528258 11/30/20 02:39 PM
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There's an argument to both sides of this, unfortunately there is one regulation that kills it all in Kansas. "it is illegal to transport any live fish from.....". Yes, I've done it. Will probably do it again. Be careful how you approach stocking your forage pond.
If you have a private location you can access what fish you are trying to get your hands on, as-in private property that a creek runs through, you are less likely to be a target as opposed to pulling fish/trapping fish at a public access point.
Rod, you are also in a "Topeka shiner" target area, ID carefully for obvious reasons..:-))
However.. you can obtain a bait dealer permit and this opens a few doors for you.

Last edited by Snipe; 11/30/20 02:40 PM.
Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528260 11/30/20 04:03 PM
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Snipe, I trust your judgement better than some of the game wardens.

I have notes from 2015 where I asked a person at KDWP - Pratt, and they confirmed that: you may stock any legally caught (on hook & line) game fish into a private pond. We then had a discussion about trying to manage a pond with spotted bass caught in creeks.

Today, I got into the Kansas fishing regulations. I cannot find anything that confirms that type of stocking is a legal act. I just now called the KDWP district office in Wichita, and a person once again confirmed that my query was a legal act. I then asked about baitfish, and he said that was also legal. He was adamant that NOTHING leaves a BOW that has declared nuisance species. That appears to be their current focus.

In my experience, the default response for most government employees is "No". I have now heard "Yes" twice, but I am skeptical because I cannot find confirmation in the statutes and regulations. I would feel much better to "have it in writing".

I will continue my reviews and keep posting on the topic. Any comments that cite specific statutes would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528265 11/30/20 04:26 PM
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This makes me feel slightly better on avoiding a huge screw-up.

Under 115-15-1

(c) A threatened or endangered species taken during established trapping seasons, authorized commercial wildlife operations, fishing by hook and line, bait fish seining, or other lawful activity shall not be unlawfully taken if immediately released.


In addition to the Topeka Shiners, I may also have Arkansas River Shiners which are on the Threatened & Endangered List. I may also have Arkansas Darters which are only on the Species in Need of Conservation list.

I suspect I will be sending lots of photos to the forum for help identifying baitfish next spring!

Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528267 11/30/20 05:04 PM
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And this makes me think the GW advice that you can stock a private pond with legally taken gamefish or baitfish is NOT CORRECT.

32-703. State of ownership of wildlife. The ownership of and title to all wildlife, both resident and migratory, in the state, not held by private ownerships, legally acquired, shall be, and are hereby declared to be in the state.

Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528273 11/30/20 06:21 PM
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I will have you confirmation shortly, the bait minnows may not be a problem. The sport fish (which regs changed in 2018 and 2019) ??? I'll see.
Ok, I just talked to my biologist, (not the GW-can't get him to answer) but here's what Reg 1 bio says..
If you want to catch fish from an impoundment to stock. He says as long as they are legal size, you follow daily creel-and here's the kicker-possession limit is total number you can utilize in your private impoundment. He feels you can legally move them if there is no notice of invasive species present in the body you fish. He can NOT confirm that to be 100% true but if planning to haul from an impoundment such as that, I have 2 suggestions beyond confirming the legal aspect. #1., make sure you bring in well water so you do not move lake water. #2, when you get to your pond, do the salt bath, remove to fresh water to revive before stocking, then dump the water you hauled in somewhere else away from pond.
His concerns are numerous in that several impoundments have invasive species that have yet to be properly confirmed. Eurasian water milfoil was one of his biggest concerns.
If this is about spotted bass I understand, I received 34 small fish from Meade hatchery and I could not get them to feed on countless organisms and lost all but 2 and both male.
My Bio says baitfish regulations are being revamped for 2021 as we speak and I'll be talking with our western regional director about that because he's heading up the meetings.

Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528279 11/30/20 07:31 PM
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Rod, caught my local warden. Here is his assessment of the regs and how he believes they are to be interpreted.
It IS LEGAL to take, by legal means, a legal sized fish up to the daily creel limit. It IS LEGAL to transport to your facility.
The problem seems to come to the same thing I believe in... Is it the ETHICAL thing to do not knowing 100% what critters /organisms you are also moving with those fish.
I strongly believe the methods we use to minimize the potential are of the utmost importance if you choose to do this.
If using a tank in your truck to transport, I would use 3 dip nets, 1 to move fish out of livewell, rinse fish IN that net then place fish in salt tank. After 2-3 minutes in salt, use dipnet #2 to rinse fish you extract from salt tank to place in fresh water revival tank. Use dipnet #3 to remove fish from fresh revival tank, rinse and place in transfer tank.
This would be the most proactive process you could do to minimize possible introduction of undesirable organisms or plants.
This is of course not a final answer but how my local 19 yr veteran warden looks at it.

1 member likes this: jpsdad
Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528280 11/30/20 07:40 PM
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Snipe,

I really appreciate you doing "extra" work to post this reply - above and beyond just typing up your own personal knowledge for the benefit of the forum.

I have been through all of the Regulations posted to the KDWPT site and through all of the KDWPT Statutes.

There is no on-point language to address this issue directly in either set of documents. The biologist is our expert, and he may be uncertain, because there is no clear controlling language!

Slightly off topic: Did you try to grow out 34 spotted bass, and have only two males survive? Were you raising them in a grow-out pond, or in an aquaculture set up? If the young are that picky about eating, I guess we know why spotted bass are not carried by any commercial growers. It also means trying for a spotted bass pond is WAY above my pay grade.

Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528321 12/01/20 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by FishinRod
There is no on-point language to address this issue directly in either set of documents. The biologist is our expert, and he may be uncertain, because there is no clear controlling language!

.

From a legal perspective this alone is enough to cause concern. Once an object (fish) is owned by the State it can not be taken and converted to private ownership without State approval. Be careful.
















Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528353 12/02/20 06:32 AM
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I am thinking there may be a license or permit available for transporting fish from state waters or something along those lines. Most likely for the state to get their share of money for getting state fish.


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528355 12/02/20 07:19 AM
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Tracy, I've looked at TPWD and the Texas Department of Agriculture websites, and have found nothing related to noncommercial permits or licenses. Game Wardens around here are also pretty fish savvy with Lake Tawakoni and Lake Fork being so close to us. None of them had any suggestions either.

I move a lot of fish in and out of my pond, and always take a pic or two of us loading fish. I can at least can show a GW that the fish were taken from private water. We always have somebody lined up to take whatever LMB that we pull during electroshockings, and I take pics of the electroshock boat and us loading the LMB also.


AL
Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
ewest #528360 12/02/20 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ewest
From a legal perspective this alone is enough to cause concern. Once an object (fish) is owned by the State it can not be taken and converted to private ownership without State approval. Be careful.

You are exactly correct. For the process to be legal, there must be a step wherein the conversion is legal.

I have been told by both a game warden and Snipe's biologist that it is legal to convert a fish owned by the state to a fish in your private waters.

I want to see a regulation that specifically states the conditions for this conversion to be legally accomplished. (I believe I have now read every single Kansas wildlife statute and regulation. There is nothing that addresses the issue.)

My initial goals were to try a spotted bass experiment in one pond and a local baitfish experiment in a forage pond.

I think in this case, ewest's "be careful" should be properly translated to "no".

I might try an email to the biologist for my region and seek an approval in writing before I ever attempt anything.

Thanks to everyone for their input!
Rod

Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528364 12/02/20 10:09 AM
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Call Lynn Davignon in the Hays Office.... Tell him Kenny sent you.
……..i'll pm that number
He's our western regional director and he can get the question answered.

Last edited by Snipe; 12/02/20 10:10 AM.
Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
Snipe #528365 12/02/20 10:15 AM
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Will do Snipe!

Thanks again for the help.

Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528369 12/02/20 11:20 AM
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Just be careful and do get stuff in writing. I did not mean "no". I am aware of cases (not your location) where public fish were used to stock a private water and the State took the position that all the fish and the stocked pond were subject to State control.
















Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528371 12/02/20 12:21 PM
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Thanks again ewest. I strive to write clearly at work and even on PB forum. Obviously, I failed (yet again)!

I was attempting to state: In the absence of a clearly written rule, "No" is almost always the safest answer.

[I said that so you guys wouldn't worry about me personally, or someone else subsequently reading the thread, getting in trouble for stuff they read on the internet!]

Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528372 12/02/20 12:38 PM
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I moved on to my next question and pulled up the Kansas Wildlife Dept. site to review their state guidelines regarding pond depth requirements and pond size.

Of course, I then found this statement in their document titled:

Producing Fish and Wildlife in Kansas Ponds

"A pond can be stocked with fish legally caught elsewhere but this practice is not advised because it is usually difficult to obtain adequate numbers, especially for large ponds, and wild fish are more likely to have disease problems than those raised by a commercial fish grower."


That statement would appear to apply to both gamefish and baitfish. But there is no support at all in the statutes.

Instead, I have a call in to Snipe's biologist. He now has the dubious pleasure of being pestered by me for "lawyer" questions, rather than his actual specialty!

Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FireIsHot #528399 12/03/20 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by FireIsHot
Tracy, I've looked at TPWD and the Texas Department of Agriculture websites, and have found nothing related to noncommercial permits or licenses. Game Wardens around here are also pretty fish savvy with Lake Tawakoni and Lake Fork being so close to us. None of them had any suggestions either.

I move a lot of fish in and out of my pond, and always take a pic or two of us loading fish. I can at least can show a GW that the fish were taken from private water. We always have somebody lined up to take whatever LMB that we pull during electroshockings, and I take pics of the electroshock boat and us loading the LMB also.
Al, i am sure you have checcked it out. I just felt like, based on what i have seen in life, that if you paid the state for a license or permit you could transfer fish from public waters. You said you found nothing related to non comercial but what is required for commercial? Start a commercial business, do the work and then the business failed. Looks like maybe a window in which one might go through. And when you need to do it all over again start up as another commercial venture. ???


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: Taking Baitfish From Your State Waters
FishinRod #528441 12/03/20 03:49 PM
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I just got off the phone with a fisheries biologist. The rules for Kansas are as follows:

1.) It is legal to take gamefish to stock a private pond. You must follow ALL of the state regulations, BOW slot limits, nuisance species rules, etc.

2.) The same rules also apply to legally taken baitfish.


He did not know how "wildlife" that was property of the state was capable of being converted to private ownership in your pond, but stated that those were the current rules.

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