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Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
Dave Davidson1 #528167 11/28/20 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Davidson1
My very personal opinion is to go for one pond. It’s kinda like having 4 girl friends with similar but different personalities. I would go nuts trying to manage 4 ponds. And also go broke.

I only have the one girlfriend (that I married), but she does have four different personalities. This constantly drives me nuts, so I see your point!

The proposed pond(s) will not have adequate runoff water, but I have a live creek for supplemental water. I do not have any appropriate topography to build an embankment-type pond. I will have to spend more money to create excavation-type ponds. However, I do have a large area above the floodplain with excellent clay.

This makes my project a "blank slate" because I can create almost any configuration of ponds.

If I elect to create multiple ponds, then they will definitely have different fish and different goals. I am currently liking the idea of side-by-side 0.5 acre ponds. It was very easy to transfer fish from snrub's forage pond to his adjacent pond.

If I can't manage the two smaller ponds satisfactorily, then I could breach the shared bank and create a 1.0 acre pond.

Based on some of your old comments, I believe that you managed to get your little 0.25 acre all of the way up to 100% carrying capacity. I am NOT going to be able to manage that intensely - due to both time and budget constraints.

What size pond would you personally select to "moderately" manage now - based on your knowledge of how you did on both your 0.25 acre pond, and your 1.0 acre pond?

I also like your idea of a forage pond to raise groceries for the other fish! It appears that others have been successful using that strategy, especially when the ponds are close together. Snrub even managed to grow groceries and stocking fish in his forage mini pond.

Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #528168 11/28/20 11:30 PM
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RAH,

That sounds like four awesome experiments!

What is the surface acreage of your crappie/blue cat pond?

I don't want to try it, I just want to follow the thread after you stock your fish. Hopefully, your solution will take care of the problem of crappie stunting in small ponds!

Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #528172 11/29/20 04:45 AM
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Future blue-cat/crappie pond is just shy of 1/2 acre but only has FHM and lake chubsucker in it so far. The clay is only relenting to plant growth very slowly, so I have held off adding any other species until I have good emergent plant cover. With our very dry weather, the pond is down 2' which is the most that I have experienced. I also added an elbow to the drain this year, so it needs 3' to reach the new full-pool level (and may reach a full 1/2 acre of surface area too). Still looking for a source of blue cats as well.

Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #528173 11/29/20 07:17 AM
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It won't take long before they become lure shy. It will happen sooner than one might think. In my case if I had a young guest at the pond and I wanted her or him to catch the largest I would just stop by the bait shop, pick up large sized or what they called trotline minnows. And then bait them up for fishing. It always worked. Big lmb or big hsb made no difference to the young fisherman. You might also use small bg for bait but for me i wanted something different the big fish had not seen and that really worked. Now if the guest were younger I would rig up a beaded fly and a bobber and bam the larger sized bg would take those baits really fast so lots of excitement and some big BG.


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Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
RAH #528190 11/29/20 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by RAH
Still looking for a source of blue cats as well.

Just make a posting in the "looking for roommates" portion of Craigslist.

I am sure if you promise the blue cats all-you-can-eat crappie - then you will get tons of replies from hungry blue cats hoping to re-locate to your pond. laugh

Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #528192 11/29/20 10:31 AM
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TGW1,

The kids that fish the pond will always have fun catching the "culling" size fish. If I did manage to raise a 6-7# LMB, it would be fun for me to catch. However, it would be WAY MORE FUN to see the smile on the face of a little person if they did manage to land that fish!

Thanks for your response - it did confirm what I was thinking. I was also thinking of "trophy" fishing with a big bait shop goldfish or a full 12" earthworm. Something that looks tasty, but the fish in the pond have never seen before.

Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
RAH #528247 11/30/20 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by RAH
Still looking for a source of blue cats as well.

Osage Catfisheries sells blue cats for stocking.

http://www.osagecatfisheries.com/pond-stocking.asp

Cody Note- In my opinion the Osage blue catfish are very reasonably priced due to the rareness of the species and lack of availability - a good value:
*8 - 10 inch = $2.25each

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/02/20 09:46 AM.
Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
Augie #528253 11/30/20 12:27 PM
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A bit out of my area, but thank you.

Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #528352 12/02/20 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by FishinRod
TGW1,

The kids that fish the pond will always have fun catching the "culling" size fish. If I did manage to raise a 6-7# LMB, it would be fun for me to catch. However, it would be WAY MORE FUN to see the smile on the face of a little person if they did manage to land that fish!

Thanks for your response - it did confirm what I was thinking. I was also thinking of "trophy" fishing with a big bait shop goldfish or a full 12" earthworm. Something that looks tasty, but the fish in the pond have never seen before.

The bait and tackle shop has what is called large shiners and they run around 4 to 5" in length. I would suggest you stay away from the goldfish. Not good to have them in the pond.


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #528361 12/02/20 09:07 AM
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Great point, Tracy!

I DID NOT know goldfish were a nuisance species.

How painful would it be, to spend years managing a pond and then be the person that contaminates the carefully selected ecosystem of fish.

Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #528458 12/03/20 09:05 PM
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RAH,

When you mentioned the chain pickerel it never occurred to me that they may not be native in your state. But digging around looking for fish for Johnny Max to scout out I found that the NAS doesn't show them as native in their maps. They show a nonnative population in the area where Kentucky and Ohio meet with Indiana. Northern Indiana has Northern Pike. Oddly enough, NAS says that redfin pickerel are distributed throughout the state. Where they are plentiful, they are the apex predator (backwaters with DO problems and shallow, intermittent, creeks). Just really learning about them. They seem to be panfish sized apex predator that tops out at 12 to 15 ". Based on what I have learned they are very good to eat. Its probably much better as a standalone predator than Warmouth would be. They are actually often found where Warmouth are found. Anyways its a pickerel that you can source locally without bringing the powers that be down on you.

Last edited by jpsdad; 12/03/20 09:37 PM.
Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #528470 12/04/20 07:11 AM
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We have Chain Pickeral here on Caddo lake and I usually catch more of them on artifical baits when the water temps are cooler. I have caught a couple of them in the 3 to 4 pound range. Way bigger than I expected. I felt like they might be good to eat because they look similar to a small Northern pike. I have had pike cooked by Indian guides up north in Canada and they were dam good eating.

Last edited by TGW1; 12/04/20 07:14 AM.

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Tracy
Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
jpsdad #528472 12/04/20 07:31 AM
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It looks like grass pickerel and redfin pickerel are subspecies. I need to see if redfin will spawn in ponds. I thought that chain pickerel were native to Indiana? http://patoka.uslakes.info/FishingChart.asp

Last edited by RAH; 12/04/20 07:33 AM. Reason: addition
Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
RAH #528483 12/04/20 09:40 AM
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I am pretty sure redfins will spawn in ponds. They do occur in ponds and lakes. Populations are low where LMB and/or chain pickerel are present. Where large predators are not present they can be both the apex predator and the dominate biomass. Like any primary predator they self limit and control their own numbers. In combination with minnows like GAMs, Red shiner, mudminnows, killifish, etc I think they would be a very fun fishery for pan sized fish up to 15". With enough fishing pressure, I think you could easily grow state record sized fish. I think if you were combine a lepomis, RES would be better than Pumpkinseed due to lower reproduction.

So these used to be very popular in the Southeast in the past. Here are some interesting reads since you expressed interest:

http://txstate.fishesoftexas.org/esox%20americanus.htm

http://www.northcarolinasportsman.com/stories/ncs_mag_5808.htm

In the second article he explains how to eat them removing all the bones in one easy step.

Quote
Like chain pickerel, redfin pickerel have Y-bones in their skeleton. But there’s no need for extreme means of cleaning and filleting redfins.

“I just scale, head and gut redfin pike like any panfish,” he said. “Then I fry them. Once they are cool enough, I hold them upside down in the palm of one hand and reach down through the rib cage with the other to pull out the backbone. All the other bones come right out with the backbone, so all you have left is great tasting fish to eat.”

Last edited by jpsdad; 12/04/20 10:44 AM.
Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
jpsdad #528824 12/13/20 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jpsdad
In the second article he explains how to eat them removing all the bones in one easy step.

Quote
Like chain pickerel, redfin pickerel have Y-bones in their skeleton. But there’s no need for extreme means of cleaning and filleting redfins.

“I just scale, head and gut redfin pike like any panfish,” he said. “Then I fry them. Once they are cool enough, I hold them upside down in the palm of one hand and reach down through the rib cage with the other to pull out the backbone. All the other bones come right out with the backbone, so all you have left is great tasting fish to eat.”

Today my son and I caught a limit of trout and we used this technique at lunch to debone the pan fried trout. It worked like a charm. Much better than trying to fork the meat off the bones.

Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #528921 12/16/20 07:35 AM
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Where did u go trout fishing?


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Tracy
Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #528923 12/16/20 08:40 AM
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Tracy,

We went to pond in Allen, TX. TWPD stocked this pond last week and it still had a fair number last weekend. My son had never fished for trout and these outings turned into great memory maker. There is a deeper story to it than just limiting trout, I left a little early from work on Saturday to take him fishing. We got there kind of late in the day and a lot of people were fishing there. The bite was slow for the bait anglers and we were fishing flies. I got three nibbles but they took me not paying close attention with a lot of slack so I didn't catch any. James was having issues with his fly rod due to the crowd, the length of casts required, and back cast obstacles. I asked him several times if he wanted to go home and try again another day. But he was determined to catch a fish and we stayed until it was too dark to fish.

So on the way home, he pulled out his phone and started watching youtube videos on trout. Soon he determined we should have fished with corn. And I told him I would take him again and we would try it. Well the next morning, Sunday, I was up at 5 and getting ready to go to work and my wife came down and said that James had set his alarm for 5:30 to go fishing. So I hadn't planned on going fishing on Sunday morning and had plenty of things I needed to accomplish at work, but I made an executive decision to stay and take him fishing if that alarm woke him up. It did and it was raining and cold and windy. So we rigged up his pole for corn and bundled up. It was the complete opposite of the prior day. Cold, windy, and hardly anyone there. At times we had to run to the shelter and get out of heavy rain. The banks were slippery and I fell flat on my back. But we caught fish and limited out. We ate them for lunch pan fried in bacon fat which is my favorite way to eat them. So was a really great trip despite the weather. It turned out to be long day still having to complete some tasks at work ... but it was worth it.

Last edited by jpsdad; 12/16/20 09:12 AM.
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Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #528925 12/16/20 09:13 AM
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As most good anglers know including you jpsdad, using the correct bait makes a BIG difference on rate of catch. The young ones can still teach the old farts some good things.


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Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
Bill Cody #528936 12/16/20 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Cody
As most good anglers know including you jpsdad, using the correct bait makes a BIG difference on rate of catch. The young ones can still teach the old farts some good things.

LOL Bill. So true. But this wasn't fluke by any means. As much as I pride my fishing skills, James usually catches the biggest fish. This is recurring theme I don't think I can excuse away as beginner's luck.

Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
jpsdad #528937 12/16/20 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Tracy,

We went to pond in Allen, TX. TWPD stocked this pond last week and it still had a fair number last weekend. My son had never fished for trout and these outings turned into great memory maker. There is a deeper story to it than just limiting trout, I left a little early from work on Saturday to take him fishing. We got there kind of late in the day and a lot of people were fishing there. The bite was slow for the bait anglers and we were fishing flies. I got three nibbles but they took me not paying close attention with a lot of slack so I didn't catch any. James was having issues with his fly rod due to the crowd, the length of casts required, and back cast obstacles. I asked him several times if he wanted to go home and try again another day. But he was determined to catch a fish and we stayed until it was too dark to fish.

So on the way home, he pulled out his phone and started watching youtube videos on trout. Soon he determined we should have fished with corn. And I told him I would take him again and we would try it. Well the next morning, Sunday, I was up at 5 and getting ready to go to work and my wife came down and said that James had set his alarm for 5:30 to go fishing. So I hadn't planned on going fishing on Sunday morning and had plenty of things I needed to accomplish at work, but I made an executive decision to stay and take him fishing if that alarm woke him up. It did and it was raining and cold and windy. So we rigged up his pole for corn and bundled up. It was the complete opposite of the prior day. Cold, windy, and hardly anyone there. At times we had to run to the shelter and get out of heavy rain. The banks were slippery and I fell flat on my back. But we caught fish and limited out. We ate them for lunch pan fried in bacon fat which is my favorite way to eat them. So was a really great trip despite the weather. It turned out to be long day still having to complete some tasks at work ... but it was worth it.

Good for you! I'll bet that he remembers this day for a long, long time!!


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Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #528951 12/17/20 06:41 AM
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As you already know there are several places to trout fish if you are willing to make a half days drive or maybe a little longer depending on the starting point. That is why i asked where you fished. My favorite place is White River Ark. It Sounds like a good time and lessons learned.


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Tracy
Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
TGW1 #528987 12/18/20 08:00 AM
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Thank you Tracy. It's been over 20 years since I have fished the White River. I have fished in the Tailraces of Beaver, Table Rock, and downstream of Bull Shoals in the vicinity of Flippin. I have many great memories fishing there. Its funny you mention this because just a few days ago I was talking with my wife about making a trip to Branson or to Flippin for a fishing vacation some time after this COVID gets settled and under control. They have memorable fisheries there for sure.

Re: Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
FishinRod #529008 12/19/20 06:05 AM
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It is a great place for sure. We have a 5th wheel trailer parked just below the Bull Shoals Dam and fish all the way to the bluff walls. I think it is about 16 miles of floating and fishing. Lots and lots of trout fishing RBT and Browns. My largest has been an 8lb brown. I have not been there to ck on things since a year ago last Oct. hope to make it there by spring. Covid sucks! I forgot to mention the SMB I fish for on Bull shoals.

Last edited by TGW1; 12/19/20 06:07 AM.

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
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