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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527911 11/23/20 02:05 AM
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You may not need the forage pond to be as large as the second 1/4 acre cell. But bigger may be better and the SAE shouldn't go hungry with that provision.

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/24/20 07:20 AM.
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527929 11/23/20 01:37 PM
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Hello.

I am very interested in what you want to do. I will follow your work.
I would like to do the same thing here with the Yellow perch and Smallmouth bass.

A+

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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527930 11/23/20 02:56 PM
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For general information, Yellow perch at hatching (yolk stage) are 5.5-7mm long and full fin development is at 8.5mm. Walleye fry at hatching begin feeding at 8.5-9mm long and after 21days are around 30-31.5 mm long which is 3.6 times longer than YP fry with full fin development (8.5mm). Walleye fry after 20-25 days should be able to consume newly hatched YP fry. If one could hold the YP eggs at a low temperature to slow hatching time and allow WE fry more time to grow at 1-1.5mm/day, the WE late larvae could more easily eat newly hatched YP. The study of low temperatures on the hatching success of YP eggs by Dr. Willis et al and reported in Pond Boss magazine (Mar-April 2010) that cold temperatures did not significantly reduce the YP egg hatch and fry survival.

YP eggs were gathered from lake water at 54F and the temperature was dropped in two tests; one at 11F to 43F and the other test dropped 14F to 37F for two days. Neither test showed a significant loss of hatching success compared to the control eggs at 54F. They then tested the temperature drop on the newly hatched YP by dropping the temperature by 6F and 13F from a starting temperature of 51F. No effect was noted for survival of the YP fry both control and test fry showed 91% survival.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/23/20 03:15 PM.

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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527937 11/23/20 07:11 PM
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In that issue Bill, does the article give hatch time from egg laid to hatch, or how much delay there was? I'll have to buy the back issue and read, that's very interesting.

Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527938 11/23/20 07:58 PM
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Hello.

Also we can use the latecomers ribbons, in the spring here the perch started 3 April until 10 May, more than a month after the first ribbon.

Every spring I throw dozens of yellow-perch ribbons of eggs so thousands of larvae that could be used as food.

A+

Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527939 11/23/20 08:46 PM
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There may be some relationship of degree-hours or degree-days where storage at some temperature can provide the desired delay.

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/24/20 05:42 AM.
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527968 11/24/20 10:44 AM
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The location I get my perch from is 2,000' above me in elevation and I think I have a way to make this work.
His perch don't start blowing ribbons until about 2 weeks after our artificial hatch of WAE/SAE.
I know last spring he had ribbons showing up when I started seeing a couple of SMB on beds at my place, so up to 5 weeks after..
I'm at the southern end of the egg take so I have the earliest window and one that could be easily missed.
If nothing else, it provokes thought.

Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527971 11/24/20 12:27 PM
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5 weeks sounds much better to me than 2 weeks or 3 weeks.

From sound of your last sentence, are you having second thoughts? What I would suggest is to do the old Ben Franklin close on yourself. On a sheet of paper, draw line right down the middle. On the left list upsides, on the right list the downsides. Try to give metrics to these. When you are finished your path should be clear and you can make the decision with confidence.

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/24/20 12:28 PM.
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527984 11/24/20 06:30 PM
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If I get approved for the water, I feel this first year it may be best to stock a few pounds of FHM and try the Perch ribbon idea before I invest a tremendous amount of "I can do that"..
I'm not having second thoughts but I do want things to work in a proper manner. One season to verify system check may be the best choice starting out. With good recording of data I might better be able to determine timing, size and abundance instead of the easy guess method..:-))
I can't really see a disadvantage to having a bumper crop of YP. Seining every 20 days or so may give me a good idea about what the available size structure may be, maybe... In the second pond with proper FHM reproduction I believe I could plant SMB fry in mid June and see what I get for a fall harvest next year. I still have my forage pond to supplement (forage) if needed.
I think.. and please add comments-that this is a better approach than "assuming" "X" can be produced.
With this at least I can start to grasp real production potential, and, the fish produced will be sellable.

Last edited by Snipe; 11/24/20 06:33 PM.
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527987 11/24/20 07:07 PM
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Just mainly out of curiosity. How close will these ponds be from each other? Will you be able to move them from one another if wanted? I was mainly thinking of forage fish being able to move easily. We will be needing some before pictures of the area also. Wish I would have took some pictures before my pond was dug in the 1st place. I see no reason not to do this. Like you said your not doing it to make a profit. There still no reason you cant make bk some of your money. And stoke your hobby at the same time.


The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527989 11/24/20 07:37 PM
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Hello.

We know that the eggs hatch a few days after the first hatching can trigger a lot of canibalism.

So next spring rather than throwing away thousands of eggs, I will hatch them in my small pond 1 or 2 weeks after the first hatching.

Since they are attracted to light they will be an easily accessible source of food for the fry.

I can't wait to try this.

A+

Last edited by azteca; 11/24/20 07:38 PM.
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527990 11/24/20 07:38 PM
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SMB fingerlings are pellet trained way much easier compared to reliably producing the eggs and fry.


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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527991 11/24/20 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Snipe
I can't really see a disadvantage to having a bumper crop of YP. Seining every 20 days or so may give me a good idea about what the available size structure may be, maybe... In the second pond with proper FHM reproduction I believe I could plant SMB fry in mid June and see what I get for a fall harvest next year. I still have my forage pond to supplement (forage) if needed.

Hey I didn't realize you have a forage pond in addition to your fishing pond. How big is it?

Quote
I think.. and please add comments-that this is a better approach than "assuming" "X" can be produced.

Do mean that discovering the yield on the your planned treatments above is better than assuming x number of Y-type of fish at Z lengths can be produced? To be sure, the results of your treatments will give you a baseline from which you can base future expectations. Also data and metrics that you might manipulate in future treatments.

Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527996 11/24/20 09:39 PM
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Existing forage pond is roughly 2400 sq ft.

Re: New Venture!
Bill Cody #527997 11/24/20 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Cody
SMB fingerlings are pellet trained way much easier compared to reliably producing the eggs and fry.
I'm very interested in trying to feed train some of these. I've not tried this with SMB, only read where you've done it. snrub has his pounding those golf ball sized optimal hand throw pellets and that just kills me. I can't get mine to train like that. I don't belive he caged his either, they just started taking feed and progressed from there.

Re: New Venture!
Snipe #528783 12/11/20 11:17 PM
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Next Wednesday I go in front of Ground water management district to see if I can make this fly..
I've spent a fair amount of time putting a presentation together. I do have other things in the works on this and I've been looking around at different options. One that comes to mind is feed training SMB. I received a quote today for 3000 2.5-3" coming in at $9,000.. I'm having some trouble with this figure. "IF" I have 65% survival, I have 4.50 each invested per fish before I add 1c of overhead costs.
I don't know what feed trained SMB go for but where they are available to me for purchase in non feed trained condition, it's 1.50/inch, so is 12 bucks for an 8" fish reasonable?

Re: New Venture!
Snipe #528785 12/12/20 09:26 AM
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The cost of seed is just too high IMNSHO. Think about HSB which are available for .20 cents each for heavens sake. It's like they want all your profit without doing any of the work. Its 3000 fingerlings, for heavens sake.

I think 12 bucks exceeds the price of your competition for feed trained fish. So it depends on convenience, expertise and other factors. Maybe you should go into the business of providing 2" to 3" fingerlings for .75 cents to a dollar and show that supplier where greed leads. In your 1/4 acre you could produce >17000 fingerlings for less than $100 in organic fertilizer. How hard could it be? So even if the crop "failed" and you got only 3000 2"-3" fingerlings ... it would still be worth $9,000 over purchasing from that supplier.

One of your 1/4 ponds could grow the fingerlings. and then at harvest, transfer its water to the other pond (filtering). Retain 3000 fingerlings for growout in the other pond. Market the rest of your fingerlings. For those buying in volume (probably other fisheries suppliers for growouts), cut them a deal and price the smaller volume stuff like LMB fingerings. Within a few years, I bet you will sell out annually.

Allow the fingerling production pond to dry and grow something else in it for a second crop in the same year.

Last edited by jpsdad; 12/12/20 11:44 AM.
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #528788 12/12/20 12:22 PM
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A supplier in Ohio sells 3"-4" SMB for $7.99 ea and 5"-7" for $10.99 ea. They may or may not be feed trained. That is retail price.

Last edited by esshup; 12/12/20 12:22 PM.

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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #528795 12/12/20 02:03 PM
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The difficult part of raising SMB is getting the fry. In my experience after fry stage, raising them is fairly easy; probably almost easy as BG. TJ does this on a regular basis. Check in with him for advice. Pellet raised SMB are valuable items. esshup's note of smb 3"-4" $8, 5"-7" $11 is the delivered price (JonesFish).

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/12/20 02:08 PM.

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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #528796 12/12/20 04:45 PM
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Bill:

With Jones, I have not seen a different price list for the fish that you pick up from them - they have fish days at their Ft. Wayne office. Is there a different price list for fish pick up? I know they have "free" fish delivery if orders are over $300, but the price per fish doesn't change.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #528801 12/12/20 08:48 PM
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esshup - you are correct. At their prices it does not take a lot of fish numbers to reach $300.


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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #528802 12/12/20 08:48 PM
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I had found that as well. That price anyway, I did not find that it said included delivery. I did find 3$/mile loaded or down to 1$/mile if combined orders were made with other clients.
I can buy fry from the same supplier but not fresh fry. He will separate at 1" at the same price per inch. For his area, this is about the first week in July.
I'm feeling strongly that I need to find a supplier of true northern genetics that will allow me to purchase 1000 or under and pick them up myself, whatever the cost. Keep 10-12 for grow out and see what I have for genetics. I know I have the Arkansas strain but we're seeing better recruitment out of the northern strain in a lake close to me that these were introduced into the impoundment about 7 years ago now. Doesn't matter if I can't find any I guess..

Re: New Venture!
Snipe #528804 12/12/20 08:52 PM
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Try Gollon in Wi. https://gollonfishfarm.com/

What about Hartley's?


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #528805 12/12/20 08:53 PM
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This is from Bill Hartley..

Re: New Venture!
Snipe #528939 12/16/20 09:33 PM
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This afternoon I met with GMD4 board in executive session and after 2-1/2hrs they decided the industrial permit will be issued on the basis of no provisions being included in the LEMA allocations to say it can't be done.
Not going to lie, I've spent the last 2 weeks prepping for what I knew might not be possible in a IGUCA (Intensive groundwater unit control area). It took the Lawyer setting in to explain they could not help but allow my request because the language was not written in to the LEMA program.
I got it, it's mine permanently but will never be granted again in a LEMA district.
I got lucky but it's done.

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