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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527789 11/19/20 07:43 PM
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I need to make a clarification here, This venture is not supporting me financially. I'm supporting the venture. Profit is not my goal, learning is, and I hope it helps someone else in the process.


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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527792 11/19/20 08:59 PM
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Blue Cats! Very hard to source outside of TX from my research.

Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527802 11/20/20 08:38 AM
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Good luck!!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Re: New Venture!
Steve_ #527803 11/20/20 08:57 AM
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If I ever am able to source blue cats, I may be able to share them locally if they spawn. My pond for this has been slow to develop plant life and after that, I want to move some mussels in from another of my ponds.

Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527829 11/21/20 01:17 PM
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To all of the nay sayers above. BS, Nothing gets in the way of the petroleum industry in Texas. And my place is in the area. I feel fortunate that my well is a shallow well that only produces 1/10 GPM. In the area there are rural deep wells that have produced for many years. Injection drilling takes a LOT of water. Coincidence that they went dry when the oil companies started deep drilling/ You would be the only one that believed that.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 11/21/20 01:25 PM.

It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527830 11/21/20 01:36 PM
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Here in Texas alot of the money spent on ponds come for oil and gas companies through one way or another. It pretty much effects everything. Real estate prices lows and highs are due to the oil and gas industry. Look around, if the oil and gas industry is good and stable properties prices go up when it slows down prices come down. You here talk about shutting things down like fracking. But our US economy is based on oil and gas. Look around, most everything you touch is made with it. And where do people think the electricity for their elec cars and the light in their homes comes from? Natural Gas for the most part. What powers our factories, our schools etc? There are always a few bad things mixed with the good things. Today they build lakes and ponds that gathers rain water for their water needs and then the landowner has a pond or lake.

Last edited by TGW1; 11/21/20 01:39 PM.

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527831 11/21/20 01:58 PM
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I had hoped to see a few more posts today, but not along the turn this took.

Ken, given your goals this is going to be a lot of fun for you where winning is the only outcome. Looking forward to following your experience and learning along with you.

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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527834 11/21/20 02:39 PM
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Wow... Not sure what to say.
I can't speak for any of the above statements made by others but I will say this: If you are not familiar with GWMD4 in Kansas (not knowing who you are), I would say maybe you are not up to speed on the recent LEMA implementation and the fact there is NO allowable use of water from the aquafer in this region for surface water-period. I'm working directly with the agency that controls this action, the supervisor that has full authority to sign the actual allowance and I served previously on the board that makes the recommendations TO the agency. I helped write some of the programs.
If you know something different, Please PM me because I have the secretary of KDWP, The head of Kansas dept of Ag and the GWMD water district 4 board working hand-in-hand with me on this and there is NO way around this fact and there is NO allowance for surface water rights without pulling allocation from an existing Crop well water right.


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Re: New Venture!
Dave Davidson1 #527835 11/21/20 02:43 PM
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Off topic post - deleted by author.

Last edited by FishinRod; 11/21/20 04:07 PM.
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527836 11/21/20 03:04 PM
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FishinRod, all due respect, this thread was not to argue about who uses what water. I've never deleted a thread of mine on this forum but I'm about to.
If you want to post about who took what from who, please start another thread.


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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527837 11/21/20 03:13 PM
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Snipe, not sure if I missed it but when do you hope to break ground on the new ponds?


Bob


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Re: New Venture!
Bobbss #527839 11/21/20 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobbss
Snipe, not sure if I missed it but when do you hope to break ground on the new ponds?
I have executive session with GWMD-4 on Dec 16th. If appropriation is approved, I'm cleared to start any time after that. I can actually start digging now if I want but thought I should at least wait until water is approved for the add-ons.


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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527841 11/21/20 04:28 PM
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Snipe said,

"Back to step one, I'm planning the addition of 2, 1/4ac ponds slightly uphill adjacent to my main pond location. I'm trying to engineer a wetland area between these 2 new ponds and my main pond. My thought process is that I can utilize nutrients from rearing ponds and provide a cleaned up, non-waist water use for my main pond (insert suggestions here).

Engineering firm retained for help and showing up Thursday to discuss and tell me my ideas won't work."


I have a similar situation on my land where I would like the upper ponds to filter water for the lower main pond. Did the engineering firm support your ideas? Did they propose any innovations that you had not yet considered?

P.S. Good luck at your water appropriation meeting! As usual, it's all about the water!

Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527843 11/21/20 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Snipe
FishinRod, all due respect, this thread was not to argue about who uses what water. I've never deleted a thread of mine on this forum but I'm about to.
If you want to post about who took what from who, please start another thread.

Kenny, please don't delete this thread. It's very rare that we get an opportunity to follow a long term production project like this, and it needs to run it's course even if the results are good or bad. Nobody wants to read a novel that has the last chapter missing, so don't let one page of disagreement on this thread trump the value of the long term benefit to all.

Having said that, I'm sure all the water talk is over with. Right guys?


AL
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527852 11/22/20 01:08 AM
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Since I raise fish in the pond, I am considered an Aquaculture Facility, and since I am an Aquaculture Facility, I fall under the umbrella of Agriculture and get a tax exemption on the property the same as a farm would. Ken, since you will be selling the fish at some point, that makes the pond different than a "hobby". Maybe that is the direction you need to take??


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527854 11/22/20 01:12 AM
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Bill C., any idea what adding (over abundant) perch ribbons would do for forage potential in 1 of the runs intended for SAE grow out? with both species hatching at near the same time, is it likely this could go the opposite direction?


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Re: New Venture!
esshup #527855 11/22/20 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by esshup
Since I raise fish in the pond, I am considered an Aquaculture Facility, and since I am an Aquaculture Facility, I fall under the umbrella of Agriculture and get a tax exemption on the property the same as a farm would. Ken, since you will be selling the fish at some point, that makes the pond different than a "hobby". Maybe that is the direction you need to take??
I'm going to have to.. I have to go commercial to keep the water right, exactly.


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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527862 11/22/20 03:38 AM
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Texas has an Ag exemption but it is for crops or livestock. Then we got the opportunity for a wildlife exemption and I sold my cows and horses. Now, there about a half dozen things that I can do but only have to do 4.

I provide supplemental water for wildlife. That's my ponds.
I build brush piles for small animals to escape predation.
I provide supplemental food. That's generally a wheat patch when we get rain. I also feed the deer a lot of corn, put out bird houses and have bird feeders.
Do a wildlife census using game cams. I load up my annual report with pictures. I
I also load up with pictures of kids that I take fishing, hunting, etc. That' not one of the requirements but I figure it helps.

Without the exemption my place would be taxed almost like city property.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 11/22/20 03:49 AM.

It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527880 11/22/20 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Snipe
Bill C., any idea what adding (over abundant) perch ribbons would do for forage potential in 1 of the runs intended for SAE grow out? with both species hatching at near the same time, is it likely this could go the opposite direction?

I know this question wasn't intended for me but I think the concerns are warranted if they hatch near the same time. Many predators hatch sufficiently before their primary prey to gain sufficient advantage to overcome competitive pressure through predation. I don't know the relationships between WYE and YP let alone how the Sauger crossing affects this timing. But it seems that to be ideal the YP need to hatch such that their size at hatching is at (or probably preferably below) the optimum size of prey the SAE need. If they are larger than this they will represent competition that will impact the SAE growout.

In general, for advanced fingerling production of primary predators, predators that become piscivorous early in life (e.g. at length ~ 2"), the presence of fish prey (fry) is very important for maximizing production (unless you will be feed training), lengths, and survival. I have additional thoughts if you are interested.

Re: New Venture!
jpsdad #527897 11/22/20 06:45 PM
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jpsdad, I'm always interested in what you have to say. Please feel free to suggest away.
I discovered something last spring that brought me to this question above. I can obtain 5 gal buckets full of ribbons 2-3 weeks after SAE hatch has occurred. I wondered if that was too close. I guess a lot will depend on health of SAE fry at age 2-3 weeks.


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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527899 11/22/20 08:05 PM
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We have yet to discuss the goal of the SAE grow out but it would seem to me that the most important one to be met is the mean length at the end of grow out. I am thinking this is most important because the SAE will be introduced into environments with existing predators after the growout.

I figure you have a plan already of what the fry density (of SAE) will be and these will be stocked in a freshly flooded water (two weeks prior) and fertilized (probably by organics). When stocking newly hatched fry for the purpose of advanced fingerling grow out, getting the number just right can be tricky. If you have to many fry survive, then the lengths will be shorter, too few, you may not grow as many as you could have. But if minimum length is critically important, you may want a two stage process where you grow out and collect a specified number of stage one fry.

In a scenario where both YP and SAE are both introduced as newly hatched fry, it will be doubly difficult to predict the number of fingerlings (both YP and SAE) that will be present at the end of growout ... so just something to think about. If minimum length is important, the numbers must be controlled on the back end or there is no control at all. A first stage fry (1.5" to 2") stocking will help you control the back end as their survival is far more predictable.

So this brings me to my next question. Is your plan to also grow some fingerling YP too or is the motivation solely to provide food for the SAE?

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/22/20 08:55 PM.
Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527901 11/22/20 09:39 PM
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I wish I was smart enough to help ya. My thoughts just being the simple minded person I am is this. I know I know not another idea but here goes. Your 1st post says your thinking 2 ¼ arce ponds. Have ya thought about 3 smaller ponds. That would give you a whole new options. They could be connected when wanted to move from one another. Could use some kind of pipe between them with grating so that can size them. Only smaller fish could stay on one side of the pond. Or it could be closed off completely also.


The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
Re: New Venture!
RStringer #527906 11/23/20 12:30 AM
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Rusto,

This is not a simple minded idea IMO. Two really good ideas. One for the extra water body and another for the drainage set up. Particularly if one is raising advanced fingerlings on forage these are superb ideas.

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/24/20 05:43 AM.
Re: New Venture!
jpsdad #527907 11/23/20 12:48 AM
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The out loud thinking was the SAE feeding on the YP hatch. I have massive production of YP in my main pond and I've pulled about 500 YOY at 3" the past 2 years. I still have to keep in mind my balance attempts have left large holes in both SMB and YP intermediates. Culling will be an extra token on those.
My biologist that I work closely with feels I need to have my forage (FHM, BNM, SFS, etc) in 1 pond and concentrate on 1 species in the other. The SAE will not be an every year deal so... I'm considering SMB and Tilapia in cell 2 for next spring.
RS, a 3rd cell, even a 4th is always a possibility. With each cell, more engineering has to go into a larger, more effective wetland for help with water quality which exposes more and more water to evaporation. Calculations right now are about 3 ac ft per 1/4a cell per year.


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Re: New Venture!
Snipe #527910 11/23/20 01:38 AM
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OK. Just wanted to be sure.

Is the wetland something you want to improve water quality (e.g. to compensate for not being able to exchange water)? Or is the state requiring that you treat discharges from the facility?

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/24/20 07:45 AM.
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