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How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
#514079 11/16/19 07:48 AM
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My pond was in the process of being taken over by Southern Naiad this past growing season. I added around 3 14" GP per acre last month. Do you think that will do the trick? Or will they take to the APW that I like so much? I have what I consider the right amount of APW around the ponds edge. Should I plan on adding some Aquathol Granular when the water temp goes back up this coming early spring? I don't mind a little bushy pondweed but this darn plant is really aggressive in my pond.


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Tracy
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #514080 11/16/19 08:18 AM
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All good questions that I will also be interested in the answers. My one acre RES/SMB pond probably has somewhere between 35 and 50% coverage of Bushy Pondweed. Bob had identified it for me at the get together I had at my place a couple years ago. At that time it ringed part of the pond and was a welcome addition as it had about the amount I liked. Then this year it exploded. I dyed the water heavily early in the season (March) but otherwise took no other action. Water got super clear and the pondweed just went crazy. In fact it caused the water to get clear enough when we had dive friends from Boston out for a visit, we snorkeled that pond to look at the SMB. I have numerous under water humps so the pondweed is scattered even out in the middle of the pond with clear water only in the deepest parts.

I also added 4 grass carp this September. I'm hoping they will keep it subdued somewhat next year.

Last edited by snrub; 11/16/19 08:19 AM.

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Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #514099 11/17/19 10:55 AM
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snrub, same here with the water clearing up. After five years of fertile green water and now between the BPW and the cold snap the water has really cleared to where I can see it growing on the ponds bottom in 6 foot of water. My designed spawning area is covered all the way to the surface. Way to much BPW for me. I priced the granular Aquathol and it's around 500 bucks to clear a half acre. I sure hope the GP choose to eat the BPW and not so much the APW. It will probably be the other way around and the APW coverage is almost perfect as far as I am concerned.


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Tracy
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #514122 11/18/19 12:49 PM
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Same here. I got the BPW for the first time this year. Added 4 grass carp in my 1.8ac pond. Thought I would wait and see how they do and maybe do a little chemical control next year to help the GC. Crazy thing was how clear the water got. My secchi disk is on the end of a 48" stick. Well after having to go elbow deep and still visible. I put the secchi disk on the end of a 10 FOOT pvc pipe. Elbow deep and I could still see it!!!!! over 11 feet.... Advantage I could see all my previous placed structure and it was all still in place.


1.8 acre pond with CNBG, RES, HSB, and LMB
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Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #514140 11/19/19 07:58 AM
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That Aquathol price is kind of scary to me. That would be a thousand dollars for my one acre pond.

I have grass carp in the adjacent old refurbished pond and have no BPW there. The spatterdock spread like crazy and may have to do something about it this year, but that is another story.


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Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #514143 11/19/19 08:42 AM
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BrianL, one good thing is like your's, I can see most all of my structure/cover I put in the pond. I found some that I forgot about. And snrub, I was looking at the cost for treating 3.14 acres frown . I sure hope the GCarp prefer eating the BPW instead of the APW.

Last edited by TGW1; 11/19/19 08:43 AM.

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Tracy
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #527566 11/13/20 06:50 AM
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Will, here it is a year later from the first post here. So what to do this year? The bushy pondweed was a big reason why I had my fish kill last July. It grew to 75% coverage of the pond and grew all they way out to 9' depths. I don't want that again this year. I did have some survival of the lmb in the 3 pound range and smaller. I lost my trophy's. So I talked to someone about treating the pond. They told me that using Sonar and treating the whole pond I would not have any plants for two years. Not even adding plants would work. So, now I am concerned because I now have at least 10 3 to 4lb grass carp and maybe 15. I saw 10 the other day. So 3 to 5 per acre. If there is nothing for them to eat. I am guessing they will muddy the pond when looking for something to eat. Now I am thinking maybe I can control the busy pondweed by using granular Aquathol Super K and just treat sections of the ponds leaving some for the carp to eat and for some cover for the fish. The bushy pondweed is very aggresive in my pond, guessing lots of nutrients. You guys have any thoughts on this approach? Also wanting a bloom this coming spring, if I treat the pondweed in sections and I fertilize for a bloom I will be feeding the plant, so do I treat the whole pond and have no plants for two years?

Last edited by TGW1; 11/13/20 06:54 AM.

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Tracy
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #527578 11/13/20 09:29 AM
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Tracy,

I would personally avoid anything that stopped all plants from growing. The thought of that literally frightens me. I love the plan of using grass carp and they'll help but won't probably keep up next year yet will provide increasing control as their standing weight increases. I'd pay attention to the size and quantity they are able to control the naiad. This is the standing weight that can control it. Ideally, you need a ladder system that keep them at that standing weight within the context of natural mortality. Stocking at the ladder would then be the method of control. Transitioning to the ladder will be an exercise that you can begin now. When you reach control, you will be able to estimate a final ladder system going forward.

I'm different than most but I would not use chemicals to control this problem. When the growth reaches unacceptable levels, I would harvest the naiad using a rake I could pull with a tractor or 4 wheeler. I might transport it and its nutrients to spread and decay on a deer feed plot. I would harvest what the carp couldn't keep up with while leaving cover for my YOY and food for the carp. The amount of nutrients you remove should probably be equal to (the nutrients bound in annual feed) - (nutrients flowing out with water at the outlet annually).

If you try to control this problem with chemicals, it will have cascading effects that go well beyond controlling the naiad.

**********
Is bushy pondweed something the Moz TP won't eat? I guess I am asking because I don't know the answer but without knowing I might think they would eat the southern naiad if nothing else were available for them to eat. TP can attain noteworthy standing weights so if they were successful at doing so why would southern naiad be so uncontrolled when TP are present unless perhaps they just won't eat it or possibly an alternative food is diverting them from eating it?

Does anyone out there control Southern Naiad with TP? Are TP an organism that can control it or must it be marked from the list?

There is an interesting discussion here:

https://texasfishingforum.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/8981219/Stocking_Tilapia_or_Carp

****************
The thread referenced above said it was important that carp be present in spring when shoots are first developing. Once the naiad has grown and branched a lot ... a small number can't keep up. The control they provide should be much better next year and may be sufficient depending on how vigorously it grows. The carp you have now can eat 3/4 ton of vegetation a month!

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/14/20 05:16 AM.
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #527586 11/14/20 05:34 AM
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Tp did nothing that I could see concerning the BPW. Neither did the grass carp, it is a preferred food for them but the Southern Naiad (BPW) out grew what ever they consumed. I think they liked my APW over the BPW from what I could see. I can see why. Because even I like the APW over the BPW. I don't want all my vegetation gone either which is why I asked the question about treating the pond. In my pond it took over really quick and that is a concern with what to do? I tested using some Aquathol super K but did not see any difference in the area treated. Guessing treatment has to be pretty heavy when treating an area. And there is no way that raking will keep up with the growth of BPW, i know it. I had 4 of us raking for a couple of weeks and it did little to reduce the BPW. That stuff grows like crazy. I bet we removed a thousand pounds when it was wet.

Last edited by TGW1; 11/14/20 05:44 AM.

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Tracy
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #527610 11/14/20 08:03 PM
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With regard to the fertilization, I do think it would help inhibit growth as long as the bloom is maintained at some minimum secchi. Swingle talked about using fertilization to control weeds. He said it was important to maintain bloom through winter. If there was a late spring float of dying vegetation it was important to curtail fertilization to prevent a fish kill. There seems to be a lot of nutrients in your sediment driving the growth of the pondweed... so I wonder if there is a way to return these nutrients particularly back to the water column without adding any new nutrients.

Something along the lines of stirring them up maybe with a water jet of some making. It would probably add turbidity but as sediment settled if enough nutrients were returned to the water column you might develop a really good bloom. If it worked, you could cycle this every 4 to 6 weeks to prevent sunlight from getting to the bottom of the pond in its deeper portions. This way you wouldn't compound the accumulation of nutrients in the sediment. At this stage, probably all you need to activate a really is good bloom is sufficient ph. I'm just thinking out loud.

An organism that will eat the stuff and then feed your LMB is what would be really ideal. If the pondweed was abundant, the organism would have cover and protection from predation, but as they ate it up they would be exposed to predators. Something like that would take the sediment nutrients and feed your bass. I keep thinking of orconectes species like papershells and northerns. I don't think either is native in your stretch of the woods, however, the northerns are shown to be native the northern regions of the trinity river drainage and the red river. I live in the heart of it but have yet to discover one. This is probably because I haven't spent much time outside DFW. These crayfish tend to use waterways to move where many other species of other genus move cross country from place to place. The northern is a true standing water species well adapted to lakes, ponds, and living with fish. It would take a decent population probably to control the weed and so minimum cover in the form of rock piles (think flat rocks or concrete slabs laced with crevices they can crawl under). There is also the another species of orconectes in Texas now called Faxonius Texanus, the Texas River Crayfish. It is very similar in appearance to the virile (northern) but I don't think they get nearly as large. There is not a lot of information on them but they are native to Trinity, Red River, & Sabine drainages. To control the pondweed, however, you maybe would have to keep a crawdad pond and restock annually when the pond weed was growing but not overgrown. My dad had a crawdad hole, its pretty remarkable the number of crawfish it would grow for bait. Orconectes will create depressions and sometimes shallow burrows but as long as there is cover they do much less of this than do procambaris species (where every female seems to want to dig a hole and seal it when she is carrying eggs). I think the genus orconectes will typically consume more live vegetation than would the procambaris.

It seems like your carp were added last year ... is that right? Were they present during the early spring?

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/14/20 08:49 PM.
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #527619 11/15/20 09:36 AM
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I put 4 grass carp in my 1 acre RES/SMB pond that had about 50% coverage with bushy pond weed. Now my pond is near denuded of plant life. I had also put in a few hundred tiny crayfish but the BPW was already being reduced by the time the crayfish went in.

Was it the grass carp that did it? Possibly and maybe even probably. But I also realize it simply could have been a poor year for the BPW. Seems like some things associated with a pond will go crazy one year and maybe the next year not that much of a problem. I had that happen in my main pond with FA. One year it was horrible and since has not been near the problem.

So I can't say for sure the grass carp cleaned out the BPW, I think that is what happened. The crayfish could also have been part of the resolution.

Last edited by snrub; 11/15/20 09:37 AM.

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Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #527621 11/15/20 10:02 AM
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Hay there John, My BPW has also died back. Guessing some of it from the grass carp and some form the changes in the weather or seasons. I am going to keep a close eye on it this coming spring. One concern is the BPW died back but dropped seeds that will come to life this coming spring. Just wanted some thoughts with treating the whole pond or treating 1/3 of it at a time and see what happens. But a close eye on it because it is extremely invasive plant at my pond.

jpsdad, Yes grass carp were added last fall. Just not enough to keep up with the growth of the plants so I added more. Three per acre and then added two more per acre the following spring. I do have experience where at the pond the crawfish denuded all my plants but that was back when my predators were small and few. I will add some more this spring. These are White River crawfish and Red swamps also. In the past i learned that the majority of crawfish around NE Texas are these two species due to people raising them for eating in crawfish ponds and then they moved on there own and for the most part these crawfish took over and the natives either moved along or died out. This has taken place over an extremely large area of our country.

Last edited by TGW1; 11/15/20 10:04 AM.

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Tracy
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #527644 11/16/20 09:44 AM
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Given the choice of too much submerged vegetation and all vegetation denuded by carp and crayfish, I think I would prefer the latter. Since you have a dock and I think fish primarily from a boat, you might consider changing the mix of plants to reduce nutrients available to the BPW through competition. Perhaps some emergent weeds like arrowhead could help with this. Emergent weeds tend to die back after the critical periods subject to carrying capacity limitations. Some other choices might be resistant to the carp and reduce the BPW growth and standing weights.

Tracy, you are now a case study on controlling BPW and adapting to conditions after a fish kill. There will be a lot on you plate as you adapt your management strategy. I recall you mentioned that you noticed more LMB recruits subsequent to the kill. I think this could be one of next year's challenges that didn't seem to a problem in years past. Have you given much thought to population management going forward to transition your pond back to trophy status?

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/16/20 03:05 PM.
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #527668 11/16/20 07:25 PM
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Yep, I may have to control lmb numbers but for now it's too early in the game. In the past my hsb, lmb and bg along with other native life did all of the culling necessary. For once my pond might be like others. We shall see, but plans are to bump Bg and Tp numbers up pretty high come early spring. And I think they help to keep lmb fry survival low. I like the fast growth they provide. Another plan is make sure I have a bloom and not let it get as clear as it was at the end of last winter. I have a bloom going on now with some olive green water. I may have to fertilize even if it bumps the plants. Most everyone says don't fertilize if you have plants so we shall see.

Last edited by TGW1; 11/16/20 07:34 PM.

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Tracy
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #527681 11/17/20 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by TGW1
Yep, I may have to control lmb numbers but for now it's too early in the game. In the past my hsb, lmb and bg along with other native life did all of the culling necessary. For once my pond might be like others.

I don't think it has to be. It takes time to get in the condition you refer to above. But now you have observed recruitment that you can respond to now before these recruits take over.

Quote
We shall see, but plans are to bump Bg and Tp numbers up pretty high come early spring. And I think they help to keep lmb fry survival low. I like the fast growth they provide.

BG will especially keep LMB fry survival lower. What you want is a large quantity of 3" to 4" BG present during the LMB spawn. But I don't think I would rely on BG alone for a number of reasons. The recruitment you had last year may have been enough on its own to overpopulate the pond. They may be in sufficient number to ruin your pond and delay the desired population for years if you do get on this task right away. Good RW can give one the sense that everything is on track but yet be an illusion. Were it me and I was focusing on returning the water to trophy status I would begin the culling before the spawn ... but ... I would do this by first doing a selection of trophy recruits.

You know that the pond will support only so many of them so you could just select that many. You could work out how large you want them to grow and divide that by the standing weight of LMB you want the pond to have. Now you are managing a goal-weight of LMB. In the prespawn period, when temps get into the 50s, is the time I would go on a selection/culling rampage the likes none may have ever seen. I wouldn't give the recruits a fighting chance to intercept the food chain for my trophy recruits. Just so there is no confusion, to me a trophy recruit isn't just an LMB with good RW, it is one that is marked (eg a fin clip) to be spared for the purpose of growing large. Once you have selected your recruits, you need only kill EVERY OTHER LMB that you can catch. You don't really need any recruits but trophy recruits. Everything else is preventing the goal not facilitating it. You could purchase recruitment if necessary in adult female F1s in the 1 to 1.5 lb weights that are 1 year old. Your needs for recruitment are very small.

I would use live bait this pre-spawn. I would start with the largest appropriate sizes to catch 3 lbers and I would probably use large shiners for bait if available otherwise BG would do. If I couldn't catch enough 3 lbers I would finish the selection with smaller fish. I would proceed killing everything else I could catch all the way through the spawn. I would not fertilize yet. Leave the water clear through the spawn as much as it will be clear. If you find any nesting males, attempt to catch or cast net them. Be determined to ruin every nest you see. LMB as small as 9" can reproduce. After your selection reduce the size of bait and try to eliminate every non selected bass (which isn't possible but a very large dent can be made). Your pond needs your help getting its large bass heavy structure back.

I think my favorite part of your pond is why you are doing it ... to give young people the great memories of catching big bass. Others have benefited and so it's only right they help with this effort. Its an opportunity for shore based fish fries in a community effort that will yield strong benefits going forward not the least of which are those intangibles of bonding and friendship.

Quote
Another plan is make sure I have a bloom and not let it get as clear as it was at the end of last winter. I have a bloom going on now with some olive green water. I may have to fertilize even if it bumps the plants. Most everyone says don't fertilize if you have plants so we shall see

I have mixed feelings about this. As you know I always speak my mind and that is something you can count on. The situation is that I am not sure if this is the best path. What this doesn't consider is that ... when we are talking about the risks of catastrophic vegetation die offs ... it doesn't really matter what kind of submerged vegetation you have. Even if you replace the BPW with phytoplankton you can develop unwieldy standing weights of photosynthesizing biota. These can crash too. With sufficient bloom, the phytoplankton will have all nutrients available plus what your are putting in to jump start them.

One quote that I like very much is credited to Einstein by some and it goes something like this. "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result." So what I am trying to say by that is maybe its time to rethink management and exploit your knowledge and experience to get more out the pond without pushing it so hard. Try where you can "to pull" instead of "to push" and you will get sustainable and perhaps even better results.

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/17/20 07:06 AM.
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
jpsdad #527698 11/17/20 02:22 PM
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Cannot add any expert opinion here but can at least give my experience as it pertains to Grass Carp. Added 30 Grass Carp to my pond 3/acre in 2013 because of Southern Niad. within two years it was wiped out completely. Not sure that's what I wanted but..........I do believe that it has prevented my black crappie from getting out of control based on nowhere to hide. I have owned my pond since 2010 and my water clarity has always been super clear. So far it all works fairly well. I have removed 115 Bass 46 Crappie and 10 Bluegill in 2020. My biggest Bass being 7lbs 11oz. and a 17 1/4" Black Crappie. Just this summer have started seeing a little more vegitation started to come back. Fighting Muskrats now. At least the side benefit of those is they have removed a lot of cattails. Like I said not really sure this helped in the conversation just another perspective.


"If you aim at nothing you'll hit it every time"

Zig Ziglar
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #527723 11/18/20 05:50 AM
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RR, 10 grass carp per acre sounds pretty high to me, but you did get the bushy pond weed under control. I am also not a fan of that stuff in my pond. I have recently seen 3 per acre but stocked 5 per acre.

I like what I have seen with Fireishot. Seems like he controls his plants from spreading through carp and spraying. That way he keeps some veggies in the pond. That is what I would like to do but concerned when it comes to the bushy pondweed as how fast it can get out of hand at my pond. I am also leaning toward spraying over throwing granular Aquathol Super K. I have a bag of it in storage and will use it this coming late Feb. I was told one bag treats 1/2 acre. When I spoke to someone that treats ponds, they told me they would use the granular sonar.

And jpsdad, i will attempt to control the numbers of lmb through fishing first, Plans are to return the healthy lmb only until i get some numbers back.

I also like having American pondweed. It grew pretty good and was everywhere i wanted it. But the bushy pondweed is so invasive it choked out the APW. I would like to get the APW back. I have a place where i can pick it and transplant it back into the pond. But with 5 grasscarp per acre getting the APW back up and going might not happen.

Last edited by TGW1; 11/18/20 06:09 AM.

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Tracy
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #527724 11/18/20 07:13 AM
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Tracy , I stocked them at 3 per acre in a 10 acre pond. Sorry for the confusion. I too had seen the recommendation of 3 to 5 per acre. And yes it is very much under control. I sometimes wonder if not to much under control but like I said it seems to be working out OK for the time being.


"If you aim at nothing you'll hit it every time"

Zig Ziglar
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
R&R #527727 11/18/20 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by R&R
Cannot add any expert opinion here but can at least give my experience as it pertains to Grass Carp. Added 30 Grass Carp to my pond 3/acre in 2013 because of Southern Niad. within two years it was wiped out completely. Not sure that's what I wanted but..........I do believe that it has prevented my black crappie from getting out of control based on nowhere to hide. I have owned my pond since 2010 and my water clarity has always been super clear. So far it all works fairly well. I have removed 115 Bass 46 Crappie and 10 Bluegill in 2020. My biggest Bass being 7lbs 11oz. and a 17 1/4" Black Crappie. Just this summer have started seeing a little more vegitation started to come back. Fighting Muskrats now. At least the side benefit of those is they have removed a lot of cattails. Like I said not really sure this helped in the conversation just another perspective.

RER, I noticed the pristine appearance of your water in your photo of that great LMB. I meant to return to that thread and comment on it but it fell so deep in the active posts that I lost track of that. I admired the fish considerably but the backstop of your water and the far hillside really completed the picture.

Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
jpsdad #527734 11/18/20 02:20 PM
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jpsdad , Thanks. That would fall under the category "A blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then" Other than adding the Grass Carp I haven't done much to enhance water quality. I'll thank mother nature and count my lucky stars. Part of that story on catching that Bass that I didn't divulge was that 10 minutes before I caught that Bass I'm pretty sure I seen him hanging out by the shore and he latched onto a small bass that I caught and spit him out before heading out and I hooked him about 50 yards away. None of which can be verified but that's my story. I throw that in there for the fact that it speaks to the water clarity. Thanks again.


"If you aim at nothing you'll hit it every time"

Zig Ziglar
Re: How to control Southern Naiad (Bushy Pondweed)
TGW1 #527752 11/18/20 11:03 PM
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Thank you for sharing the photo and (as Paul Harvey used to say) the rest of the story.

[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/19/20 10:55 AM.

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Recent Posts
AWSOME Bass/Tilapia Study
by crimsondave - 12/05/20 06:54 PM
Stocking Trout in my Accidental Bass Pond
by Fyfer123 - 12/05/20 05:39 PM
2020 Deer Season
by RAH - 12/05/20 05:19 PM
Happy Birthday Solarmaster highflyer
by Sunil - 12/05/20 02:19 PM
Overflow pipe leak, could lose the pond
by FishinRod - 12/05/20 12:56 PM
Adding to my pond's ecosystem...
by Bill Cody - 12/05/20 10:34 AM
Finally pulled the trigger!
by 5444 - 12/05/20 07:49 AM
Dozers moving in.
by TGW1 - 12/05/20 06:31 AM
cold weather feeding BG/RES
by anthropic - 12/05/20 03:05 AM
New member/ city kid
by Bobbss - 12/04/20 08:39 PM
Breaking equipment, your stories
by RStringer - 12/04/20 01:25 PM
Pond Redo
by RStringer - 12/04/20 01:19 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Chara or Coontail?
Chara or Coontail?
by MrSandman, November 28
Help Identifying
Help Identifying
by KW35, October 31
Mneagle2
Mneagle2
by Michael37090, October 21
Cloud Pond
Cloud Pond
by yucky, October 16
Bass colors
Bass colors
by woodster, October 7

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