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R&R #528651 12/08/20 11:32 AM
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RAH, if you get them to come in any closer you can just hunt with a pointy stick!

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Well that's my thing

R&R #528665 12/08/20 11:48 PM
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RAH, this year the deer that I've shot ranged from 25 yds to that 167 on Sat. Depending on the property, the shots could range from 0 feet (straight down) to over double the range of the Savage.

Tracy, the Savage is the best production muzzleloader (IHMO), but they are out of production. If you want a "new" smokeless muzzleloader, go look here: https://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/muzzleloaders/ They are shooting 300+ grain bullets at over 3,000 fps now.

Technology has surpassed the Savage ML now, the weak point is their breech plug and ignition system. Now the ticket is using a regular rifle primer in a piece of brass from say a .308 with a different designed breech plug.

To do one cheaper, get a short action centerfire receiver such as Remington. Swap out the trigger assembly for a good one such as a Jewell. Either send it to Hankins or to Luke at Arrowhead Rifles and have him convert it to a Smokeless Muzzleloader. Do away with the sabots, use full bore sized bullets such as the Pittman Aeromax. If you can legally do so, I would shoot for a .40 caliber. Here in Indiana we have to be .44 cal or bigger so .45 cal is the preferred choice if going to smokeless for distance shooting. Going with a bore sized bullet allows you to push it faster. A muzzlebrake and ear protection while hunting is mandatory to keep your shoulder in one piece and allow you to keep your hearing.

Going with the Rem action will allow you to have a larger barrel dia for the first 5"-8" and that will allow you to shoot the heavier powder charges not risk damaging the gun or you like would happen with the Savage if you shot those powder loads. Max is 70 grains of H-4198 behind a 300g bullet.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
esshup #528689 12/09/20 06:14 PM
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Sounds like that thing gets meat at both ends! Lol

esshup #528693 12/09/20 07:34 PM
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Do you need a special muzzleloader to use smokeless powder? I do not have a "smokeless muzzleloader".

RAH #528698 12/10/20 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by RAH
Do you need a special muzzleloader to use smokeless powder? I do not have a "smokeless muzzleloader".

Yes!! Savage built muzzleloaders specifically for modern rifle powder. There are some conversion barrels to convert certain CVA rifles to smokeless - everything has to be changed. Barrel and breech plug. You cannot use smokeless powder for centerfire rifles in black powder guns - you run the risk of blowing them up.

What I really like about shooting the Savage is not only the extended range that I get, but not having to clean it from the beginning of the season until the season is closed. Heck, I've even left it loaded for about 10 months just to see if there would be any different POI. Not really, POI changed 1" at 100 yds for the first shot, went back to the same POI with the next shot.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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R&R #528700 12/10/20 05:24 AM
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Thank you! If I ever buy another muzzleloader, I will check that out. I also would like the newer style breach plugs to make cleaning easier. Its hard for me to justify a new muzzle loader right now because I usually can only take one doe during this season based on Indiana rules and my typical harvest timing.

R&R #528711 12/10/20 09:28 AM
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RAH, your county is listed as 2 for bonus antlerless, and that is from the start of archery through the end. So, even with your timing of the harvest, you can shoot 2 does plus whatever buck you want, it doesn't matter what weapon you use.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
R&R #528731 12/10/20 01:43 PM
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I can take 2 does under archery and 2 bonus deer, one of which can be a buck. Since I took my buck with a rifle, I took 4 does during archery. This leaves me one doe that I can take with the muzzleloader. If I took my buck with the bow, then that would leave 3 does during archery, but none could be taken with a rifle. So depending on how I harvest the buck, I can either take a total of 5 or 6 deer. Way too complicated but I confirmed with DNR a few years back.

Last edited by RAH; 12/10/20 05:40 PM. Reason: typo
R&R #528734 12/10/20 03:31 PM
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We call this one kicker. Going to let a deer like this spread his genes and watch him put on some more mass in the next 1 - 2 years.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

[Linked Image from ]

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Tbar #528736 12/10/20 05:39 PM
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Wow!

Tbar #528737 12/10/20 06:51 PM
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Nice! That’s the way to do it if you can get neighbors onboard

R&R #528738 12/10/20 07:46 PM
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Nice one. I expect that sucker has already spread is genes quite often.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
R&R #528750 12/11/20 06:01 AM
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Thats a nice buck. Hard to age him through these pics. Have u aged this buck?


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
R&R #528764 12/11/20 11:27 AM
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Damn thats a nice buck Tbar,! that would take some willpower to let him walk, especially if you are not sure what the neighbor would do, but I agree with your theory!


All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
R&R #528768 12/11/20 11:57 AM
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RAH, I agree with you.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
esshup #528775 12/11/20 05:04 PM
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Looking forward to next season. Happy holidays to all! BTW, just saw that honey locust pods are a favored food for deer. We have quite a few of these and our long drive is lined with thornless honey locust. This may be another draw on our property.

Last edited by RAH; 12/12/20 08:57 AM. Reason: addition
R&R #528791 12/12/20 02:01 PM
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RAH, the 2nd (or 3rd?) rut is kicking in. Saw 2 different does yesterday being chased by bucks. I had a 130 class buck (I think, I can't judge inches on the hoof) in the crosshairs off and on for about 10 minutes yesterday at approx. 180 yds. Landowner didn't want me to shoot bucks, just does, so I didn't pull the trigger. Then talking to him afterwards he wanted to know why I didn't. I said, you said no bucks. Your property, your rules. I'm not here hunting for me, I'm here to hunt for you - to reduce the amount of does on your place. He then said you could have shot him.

Nope, not unless I get a clear green light I'm sticking to what he said at first, and I will still go to sleep easily at night.

The deer trails there in the woods are just lines of mud, they see that much deer traffic. It's in a reduction zone, so my goal is 10 does.

That buck had good mass at the base, was about 2" wider than the ears on each side, and was about 16"-18" high. High rack, not too much length going forward. left side was symmetrical, G2's were probably 12" - really tall. 10 pt, right side had a crab claw at the end of the main beam.

Last edited by esshup; 12/12/20 02:05 PM.

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R&R #528798 12/12/20 08:27 PM
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Took my final doe (out of 2 does) ahead of a trailing buck in the second rut (about a month after the first rut). Would have been a cull buck if I had not already culled my 2020 buck earlier (shot a weird wounded pandemic buck earlier - posted pics earlier). This recent one just did not have enough tine length. I saw a nice 3.5 year old a couple days before that will be a shooter next year that seemed to see me in the stand but then turned his head away at 10 yards and walk away, Hope that he makes it. Saw him even earlier as well and he did the same thing then. Been a strange year all around. Most of the does that I took this year seemed to see me before I shot them this year, but did not run... The final doe was my only shot over 25 yards (this one at 85 yards on the ground because I had my knees to use as a rest for my elbows). Have come to be OK with coyotes because they help keep the overall deer population in check during these times of diseases. Actually saw a trembling raccoon with distemper as well. Carefully walked around him on a trail. Depressed fur prices have resulted in a population boom, so they and the coyotes may soon have their own pandemic... Hoping we are done with this by next season! Your self control is no doubt the reason yo have access to deer hunting property. I have seen the flip side of that.

R&R #528803 12/12/20 09:49 PM
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Thanks RAH. I did screw up and shot a "button buck" that looked like a doe. Had me pinned at over 100 yds. Turns out the 1.5" long "buttons" were on a buck that was 1.5 years old, not 6-8 months old.


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R&R #528810 12/13/20 07:13 AM
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A few year back, I shot what I thought was a large doe during muzzleloader. When my wife came out to help me load it, she said, "this smells like a buck". In fact, it was a "shed buck" in December and I did not even notice. Really bummed me out, but it could have been genetic and worth culling anyway (it was in good body condition). I am really careful not to shoot buttons in recent years, but I am a bad judge of size on the hoof which usually means close shots. I try to look for behavior or take one out of a family group at yardage, but nothing is failproof. Your older button was probably a good cull as well. I consider the twisted "pandemic buck" that I took this year to be a cull too, since even if the old 12-point wasn't twisted, it would score poorly due to tine length. I am not "score crazy", but I still trophy hunt. I will not lose track in which year I took this twisted rack. The whole year has been "twisted". I do like being in the woods, but, as I age, I am often not so eager to sit in a stand when it gets really cold...

R&R #528811 12/13/20 09:49 AM
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I didn’t get a big buck this year. Had a nice one in the cross hairs opening morning, but wasn’t comfortable with the shot. Too much brush in the way. My son in law took a nice 10 pt the next day. We each took does later in the week, and then on the last 30 min of the last day took what I thought was another doe. Turned out to be a button buck. We have a lot of little bucks running around. Hopefully the neighbors will let them mature. Four point rule in our county.
Haven’t tried any yet, but I’m betting the button will be pretty good eating. Had some of the doe burger already. Processor cuts it with beef fat. I could hardly tell it was venison.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
R&R #528827 12/13/20 08:19 PM
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I shot a nice buck opening day. Mistake! Other than hogs, my season ended.

However,I am butt deep in hogs that I need to shoot.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Ha ha! Really!


Dan McWhirter
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R&R #528831 12/13/20 09:03 PM
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Not doing much deer hunting here as old friends and friends of friends have passed on. I just urge you folk to separate some muscle, down to the singular, clean it of silver skin and sinew, cure it in solution for about four days (Morton's Quick Cure is easy, otherwise use a calculator [Amazing Ribs] for the pink nitrite salt). Soak a day in fresh water to pull out some salt. Smoke it good, robustly! It will sweat moisture...when sweating is over, check for 160F plus. This stuff is hard to screw up, unless you burn it. Slice across grain very thin (or not). Tender! This can be a great bar snack if you're not selfish. Still waiting for someone to share an Axis tenderloin (50/50) or any shoulder or butt. LOL!


Dan McWhirter
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