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Dr Wesley Neal had an interesting article in the latest PB magazine about rainbow trout as bass forage. While he acknowledged that LMB love trout and seem to grow especially well on a trout diet, he argued that stocking winter trout for the purpose of feeding LMB is mostly futile. Too much expense for too little LMB gain. He makes a good case, and I've had to reconsider my plans to stock trout in a few weeks.

I have something like 50 lb of LMB per acre, or about 400 lb for the whole pond. If I put, say, 100 lb of rainbow trout, and all get eaten by LMB, that would amount to only 1/4 lb per bass. Considering that, at best, only 20 percent of trout converts to bass flesh (10 percent is usual figure but trout may be better), that means 1/20th of a pound extra per bass. Not noticeable, and certainly not worth paying $1,200 to $1,500. And that's best case!

But leaves out a very important point: I don't stock trout to feed all my bass. My interest is feeding the large LMB, preferably over 18 inches. Based on creel results & electrosurvey, that might be 10 to 15 percent of the bass. (I wish it were higher, but that's life.)

Okay, so if top ten percent are my target, that would mean ten times 1/20th, or half a pound extra on each of my biggest bass. Suddenly I'm very interested.

Since trout get sluggish before expiring of heat in spring, probably the vast majority get eaten without much energy expenditure by the LMB.

Problem: How do I keep the 90 percent of smaller LMB from eating trout? Answer: The trout have to be large, 12 inches & up. Due to their fusiform shape, trout are more easily eaten than other fish.

Problem: Won't some of the 12 inch trout quickly outgrow forage size even for trophy bass? Yes, some will. Hard to quantify exactly. We can catch & eat the bigguns, so it won't go to waste.

Problem: Won't hybrid stripers also eat some trout? Sure, but that will still go toward sport fish.

Problem: Won't cormorants get some? Yes, sadly. Not much I can do about that. But remember that they also eat some LMB, mostly the smaller ones.

Right now I'm thinking maybe 100 lb of 10-12 inch RBT in main BOW, 70 lb 4 to 6 inchers in my forage pond. Feed small guys up until they reach at least 1/2 pound, then release 300 lb into main BOW.

That's my current thinking. If taxes and energy prices are going up next year, though, I may have to pull back. We'll see.

Comments?

Last edited by anthropic; 11/08/20 12:26 AM.

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I’m not at all sure about sizes of bass they eat. In Japan they have used cormorants to fish with for many years. I remember the pics of them putting a ring around the birds neck attached to a cord that the guy in the boat held. They sent the bird down and the bird caught a fish but couldn’t swallow it due to the ring.

I don’t remember and probably never wondered about what sizes they could take and I doubt they could catch really big fish.

Nor do I know anyone there to ask. But it would be interesting to find out.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 11/08/20 07:05 AM.

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Originally Posted by anthropic
Dr Wesley Neal had an interesting article in the latest PB magazine about rainbow trout as bass forage. While he acknowledged that LMB love trout and seem to grow especially well on a trout diet, he argued that stocking winter trout for the purpose of feeding LMB is mostly futile. Too much expense for too little LMB gain. He makes a good case, and I've had to reconsider my plans to stock trout in a few weeks.

Frank, about half the cost is the trout and the other half is the feed if you choose and appropriate commercial trout feed. If you use optimal or purina formulations for predators, it will cost as much as former just for the feed. First, one needs to match the feed to the fish.

Feeding forage isn't a cost efficient way to grow predators. Feeding predators the feed directly is very cost efficient. The reason deals with conversion ratio of forage weight to predator weight.

I think feed targeted to raising appropriately sized trout will be more cost efficient than the same quantity target to feed large BG. I would think that the majority of feed of you are feeding BG is going into putting weight on the largest BG. That introduces inefficiency simply because the BG that directly benefit are the ones that the LMB can't eat.

But then feeding BG produces manure and this manure stimulates the base of the food chain creating a bloom of micro-organisms. It is this bloom that provides cover to young BG fry and lots of food. And so production BG YOY is what is going to grow your LMB. So this begs the question, if the "REAL" benefit to the LMB is a secondary effect of feeding .... is there a way ... to shift the use of feed to another organism so that the primary consumption of feed grows forage the LMB are going to eat? The RBT is a good organism for this. It can easily double in length (8-tuple in weight) over the winter growing season and provided it isn't too big at the end of the season, can make ideal forage for 18" to 25"+ LMB.

The cool season provides these benefits.

1. Non competitive environment with existing community members. The rainbow trout are active, the BG are not. The feed goes to the trout.

2. Less predation especially with TP and BG YOY in the water. These alternatives will draw the predators because they will be easier to capture than trout in cool water. Survival over winter should be good provided they are introduced in water cool enough to slow the metabolisms of predators and alternative prey. Slower metabolism, especially for prey alternatives will provide an energetic cost advantage to the predators that they will exploit.

Were I doing this I would seek to stock 4" to 6" Trout when water temps fall below 60 degrees. I would try to grow the trout to a mean length of 10" and if it looked like they may achieve it prior to March 31st I might slow down the feed rate (natural foods may be supplying sufficient growth to complete the cycle). If you feed as much as would in the summer, you should have a great bloom going when the BG start spawning in spring and the first spawn should be very successful. You may not even need to feed the BG the rest of the year. The secondary effects of feeding should be very similar but I would mention that spring is VERY, VERY good time to have nutrients in the water and a good bloom. A good bloom will also reduce FA.

Under this scenario, all of the feed goes to grow forage for your LMB. No feed is wasted unless something other than your LMB is taking your trout (like poacher, otters, osprey, eagles, and cormorants). IMHO, you will get more benefit from feeding trout than feeding BG and I think its a viable strategy to shift feed use to the winter if the purchase of RBT isn't cost prohibitive for you.

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/08/20 09:01 PM.

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I had a thought.. I know, that's hard to believe.
What IF.. the trout start to slow and get sluggish after the big females (LMB) have already hammered their pre-spawn take and now want nothing during the actual spawning process? What if these 2 things coincide time-wise??

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Hmmm. If this happened I think there would be risk that other predators (like birds) might take a toll on the crop of RBT. I think, however, there would be a 6 to 8 weeks in late spring where the post-spawn females would be eating while RBT activity is declining. Ideally, one wants the RBT be vulnerable over a good span of time. One probably shouldn't overlook the risk of a rapid die-off of RBT which could leave many uneaten.

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/08/20 09:27 PM.

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I believe we'd be into 70+ deg water when those girls start feeding heavy again. I know every BOW is going to be different, especially the D.O. situation. As I said, it was just a thought and probably a non issue.

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I defer to your wisdom Ken. I don't know what the feed rates of the big LMB would be. I hadn't thought about that. If LMB wouldn't eat the RBT when vulnerable... which as far as I know is possible ... its a bust. Otherwise, I guess it would be a windfall for them.

****

After some thought ... it occurs to me ... that if the RBT were sluggish ... the big females would have to stop eating entirely to ignore the RBT. So if they are recuperating and not aggressively hunting, then the preferred prey should be the most easily captured of the most desired sizes. If the RBT are sluggish and of the correct sizes, it would be hard to argue that LMB wouldn't eat the sluggish RBT predominately during this time. Being easier to capture prey, they'd be just what the doctor ordered so speak after being exhausted by the acts of spawning providing much needed nutrition. So it boils down to ... do they stop eating or perhaps do they eat so very little they wouldn't exploit the opportunity sluggish RBT might offer?. Maybe its somewhere between a "free for all" and "nothing at all"?

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/08/20 11:22 PM.

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I strongly believe timing would be everything on this. Female LMB, just like WAE tend to take a "rest" period after the rigors of spawning. They may relocate to slightly deeper water for a short period. As you know, fishing for LMB females immediately pre-spawn and a short period post-spawn, it is darn hard to even hand force a female to eat, even reaction strikes tend to stop. I believe it is built in to the females to recoup and regroup, then it's game-on.
Obviously not all spawning occurs the same night/day, it's strung out over a period of time just as the mortality of trout will be.
The cycle of trout-I would expect-starts slow with a few weaker fish followed by a flurry of death and then the strongest of genetics string the remaining individuals out.
Again, I have no way to prove this would not work, the only correlation I can suggest is the smaller lakes where we provide fall-winter-spring put and take trout fishing, if we happen to be shocking bass off of nests this seems to be about the same time trout are no longer found.
And I don't know that this means anything but it's something that crossed my mind regarding the timing. I think your comment of free-for-all or none-at-all is both a possibility.

Last edited by Snipe; 11/09/20 01:13 AM.
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Thanks to everyone for the replies! You've given me food for thought.

I can only speak from my experience on some of these issues. Last year the larger trout tripled their weight in about ten weeks, an amazing rate of gain, going from .75 lb in early December to around 2.25 by mid-February. (Yes, I feed & they dominated the feeders for a couple of months.) Then they stopped growing until about mid to late March, followed by a final surge over 3 lb by late April. Probably 3.5 lb was biggest we caught in April. Didn't see or catch any after early May.

Small 2 ounce forage trout also grew fast, reaching a maximum of 1 to 1.5 lb in April. I think few survived that long, though.

Bob L said that the reason that bigger trout growth paused in Feb/March was that they were spending their energy growing eggs rather than putting on weight.

Rainbows are wonderful sport fish, leaping & fighting hard. Even though I prefer to eat other fish, some really enjoy them, including my grandson!

Last edited by anthropic; 11/09/20 01:21 AM.

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Originally Posted by Snipe
... the only correlation I can suggest is the smaller lakes where we provide fall-winter-spring put and take trout fishing, if we happen to be shocking bass off of nests this seems to be about the same time trout are no longer found.

And I don't know that this means anything but it's something that crossed my mind regarding the timing. I think your comment of free-for-all or none-at-all is both a possibility.


Originally Posted by anthropic
Small 2 ounce forage trout also grew fast, reaching a maximum of 1 to 1.5 lb in April. I think few survived that long, though.

These experiences suggest that the small trout may be vulnerable to LMB predation before DO is a problem for trout. Ken, if the trout were consumed by LMB prespawn, that might explain why they are not present during the LMB spawn. There is probably a temperature above which LMB have the upper hand. The number I threw out is in the neighborhood of the temperature spawning typically begins. At 60 degrees, however, the LMB may have no trouble taking small trout and this of course would impact success if stocked at this temp.

It would be great to understand the temperatures required to inhibit predation of small trout by LMB because to lower the cost, one needs to put some low cost weight on them. To have them consumed at stocking would just be a 1 to 1 forage addition. In the context of cost and benefit, a shorter growing season where the pre-spawn LMB feeding eliminates small trout, should be considered as well. Less feed would be used and less gain in weight achieved.

Most hatcheries sell forage for around $16/lb. So this is true of BG, RES, and even of trout. Whatever is gained between stocking and consumption by predators lowers this cost. If the pond could naturally double the weight of the 2 oz RBT, then the cost could approach $8/lb with no additional feed costs. Frank, you experienced an 8-tupling in weight for those that survived until April (which were few). Don't know your feed rates or how much went to the little ones but maybe a fair portion of the weight the little trout gained was from natural foods. A 25% increase in length is a doubling of weight. Maybe the thing to do is spend the feed budget on doubling the number of trout. Just take what the pond will grow them to and expect few to survive to April.

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/09/20 09:45 AM.

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Wes Neal is a practical guy. He is doing a cost/benefit analysis which is appropriate from his position. Many pond choices are not just based on science practically but are goal oriented. Cost is not always the biggest determiner of goal choices or decisions. It is a factor and varies in importance by person and pond.

RT will do well as an addition to forage and fun in E Texas under most LMB situations provided the owner knows what to expect.
















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Only here to say I havent gotten mine yet frown


Im going to ask a lot of questions, but only because I'm clueless


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Originally Posted by jpsdad
These experiences suggest that the small trout may be vulnerable to LMB predation before DO is a problem for trout. At 60 degrees, however, the LMB may have no trouble taking small trout and this of course would impact success if stocked at this temp.

It would be great to understand the temperatures required to inhibit predation of small trout by LMB because to lower the cost,
.

I am going to look into this to search for info.

My guess is as follows based on my memory of several sources.

Water temps

39 - 50 F - RT have the advantage of mobility and active metabolism . The colder it gets the less active the LMB will be.

51- 70 F - equal footing - bass metabolism starts to ramp up and then equal RT. LMB can and will feed on RT with the amount increasing on a sliding scale as temps rise. RT will have active metabolism up to 70 F +-

70 F + LMB have the advantage and as temps increase the advantage increases.


Best guess for success if stocking smaller RT - stock behind a blocking net (habituation) when temp gets to 50 F and feed them high protein feed. After a few days as temps drop you can remove the net and keep feeding. Would be good to have cover inside net area for RT protection after it is removed. Watch and adjust as needed.

Additional info

The growth curves for largemouth bass derived from laboratory data (constant temperatures) indicated that growth is negligible below 10°C,
Is nearly linear in the range10-28°C, and declines abruptly above this
Value (Strawn1961;Coutant,unpublished report).

Largemouth bass consumed prey during winter at temperatures that were greater than or equal to 6°C. At less than 6°C, feeding continued infrequently. In our experiment, winter temperature drove much of the variation in consumption by largemouth bass in all winters. Metabolism of largemouth bass, like that of many fishes, declines with declining temperature (Brett and Groves 1979; Rice et al. 1983; Jobling 1993), likely contributing to reduced consumption. Although feeding continued through winter, it was infrequent below 6°C. Previous investigators have suggested that largemouth bass do not feed below 10°C (Markus 1932; Johnson and Charlton 1960).

Behavioral and Metabolic Adjustments to Low Temperatures in the Largemouth Bass (Micropterus salmoides)
Daniel E. Lemons
, and
Larry I. Crawshaw



Food intake was measured during and after the acclimation period, and MR and activity were measured following the acclimation period. MR, measured in a closed system, was exponentially related to temperature with a Q10 of 3.0. Food intake declined linearly down to 10 C, below which it became negligible. Spontaneous swimming activity, measured in an annular tank, was similar for all fish at or above 7 C and was considerably reduced at 5 and 3 C. These data indicate that physiological systems respond very differently to low acclimation temperatures in the largemouth bass. MR shows no compensation. The central nervous system, which mediates activity cycles, shows perfect compensation from 17 to 7 C, with a decline at lower temperatures. An energy analysis reveals that food intake fails to meet even resting metabolic requirements at temperatures below 10 C and that the net cost of spontaneous swimming activity is a small portion of the total daily energy expenditure from 3 to 17 C.

Bioenergetics and growth of largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides) in relation to body weight and temperature
Authors: A. J. Niimi and F. W. H. Beamish


For most weights, growth of fish (grams/day) was highest at 25C, and lowest in fish at 18C. This was attributable in part to a higher satiation (maximum) feeding level at 25C. For a fixed level of feeding, growth rate (percentage wet weight/day) was highest for fish held at 18C.Lipid content (percentage wet weight) increased with feeding level and was highest at 18C, Moisture content varied inversely with lipid. Protein and ash content did not vary appreciably with temperature, body weight, or feeding level.Maintenance requirement of bass, expressed as grams/day, was about twice that lost during food deprivation, but only slightly different when expressed as kilocalories/day.Energy requirements for nonfecal losses were estimated as 10% of intake energy at all feeding levels. Standard metabolism accounted for 50% of intake energy near maintenance, but only 10% at the satiation feeding level. Growth requirements increased From zero at maintenance to 40% of intake energy at satiation feeding


The minimum temperature for growth in trout is about 38o F. At this temperature and below, appetites are suppressed, digestive systems operate very slowly, and trout require only a maintenance diet (0.5 to 1.8 percent of body weight per day, depending upon fish size). Feeding more than this wastes feed. In warm water (above 68o F), a trout’s digestive system does not use nutrients well and more of the consumed feed is only partially being eliminated. This nutrient loading of the water, coupled with the generally lower oxygen levels in warm water, can easily lead to respiratory distress. In warm water, feeding rates should be reduced enough to maintain good water quality and avoid wasting feed. The optimum temperatures for growing trout are 55 F to 65o F. At this temperature range feeding rates should be at maximum levels (1.5 to 6.0+ percent of body weight per day).

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Here's the thing with trout: The small ones (2 oz) help sustain smaller bass and eventually grow to perfect size for big bass. But relatively few seem to survive predation long enough to hit 10 to 14 inch sweet spot.

Meanwhile, the larger ones, maybe 12 oz, make really good bass chow for bigguns in just a few weeks...but the trout don't stop growing. Instead, they quickly hit 16 to 20 inches, or even more, well beyond eating size for almost all bass in my pond.

Makes me wonder if it may be possible to order some 10 - 12 inch trout in March or early April & get them cheap near end of season. They won't live long & growth will be limited by rising temps, but that's not a bad thing if feeding big bass is top objective. Hmmm...

Last edited by anthropic; 11/10/20 10:26 PM.

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Eric,

So is 1.5% of body weight recommended for trout at 55 degrees and 6% at 65 degrees recommended for feeding? In the largemouth study the authors noted a linear relationship with temperature. Would the same apply to trout? If so, would be a cinch to calculate optimum feeding.

Would be great to know the feed consumption rates (eg oz/trout-min) for various sizes of trout at various temps. Something like that might be a way to estimate the number of survivors helping to optimize feed.

With regard to the LMB, did the authors provide metrics or a graph of the temperature and feeding rate relationship? I would be interested in that from the perspective of predicting winter growth of LMB. Anyways, thanks for thoughts above.


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I have looked at the trout additions as forage. For me if I want my lmb to to gain weight going into the winter you would have to add enough trout for the lmb to feed daily on them. I think I am better off to add additional bg to the pond or keep the 30/40 to 1 ratio bg/lmb. These bg need to be in the right size for the lmb to eat. Adding to this is to add 4 to 6" Tp when the water temps are in the low 60's and dropping water temps to the 52 degree range.. After the lmb feed on the slow Tp the lmb will slow down due to colder water and the newly added bg should fill that slot. Lmb are still fairly active in that 52 degree range. Tp can be purchased at a discounted rate in the late season.

If you want trout for catching then that is a whole different thing.

Last edited by TGW1; 11/11/20 08:07 AM.

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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Eric,

1. So is 1.5% of body weight recommended for trout at 55 degrees and 6% at 65 degrees recommended for feeding? In the largemouth study the authors noted a linear relationship with temperature. Would the same apply to trout? If so, would be a cinch to calculate optimum feeding.

2. Would be great to know the feed consumption rates (eg oz/trout-min) for various sizes of trout at various temps. Something like that might be a way to estimate the number of survivors helping to optimize feed.

.

1. I think that is a range not a linear suggestion. Between 55 and 65 F feed at least 1.5% (maintenance diet is 0.5 to 1.8 percent of body weight per day, depending upon fish size) up to 6% (max feeding intake). See referenced SRAC info on trout. https://srac.tamu.edu/categories/view/34 - trout info

2. See link above for more info. I think the chart you want is in SRAC 0223.

Tracy your plan is one used often and has been successful. LMB binge feed in fall (cool weather) to get ready for winter - that is when the tilapia get sluggish and are easy prey for them. It would be good to see info from someone who had used tilapia for fall feeding and RT for spring feeding. That would be for a knowledgeable manager as IMO it would be running the pond engine at high speed and hoping for no crash.

Last edited by ewest; 11/11/20 12:05 PM.















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Originally Posted by ewest
Tracy your plan is one used often and has been successful. LMB binge feed in fall (cool weather) to get ready for winter - that is when the tilapia get sluggish and are easy prey for them. .

Trout will never be as good as TP for forage. They are both temporary and each have periods of greater vulnerability but the trout will never reproduce.

As for fall stocking of TP for forage the proposition is no better than 1 to 1 as growth essentially stops at those temperatures. There is a limited amount of TP at hatcheries for forage at that time of year and I figure this is a first come first serve proposition. These TP represent those that will not be overwintered for next years spring sales. Overton's sells 3" to 6" fingerlings now at less than $13/lb at quantities less than 100 lbs. Don't know how cheap they'd get for larger quantities but these range in ideal sizes for LMB > 18". If a person has some >24" LMB, all are on the menu. I guess the correct amount is how much the LMB can consume over the period the TP are still swimming. Eric, this is but just one the reasons I was asking if they quantified the consumption rates of LMB with respect to temperature in a graph, table, or as a function. This kind of knowledge would be helpful in calculating optimum forage stocking rates.

Quote
It would be good to see info from someone who had used tilapia for fall feeding and RT for spring feeding. That would be for a knowledgeable manager as IMO it would be running the pond engine at high speed and hoping for no crash

This makes little sense to me. There are so many ways to approach this. There is no need to push the trout growth with feed for example ... or one can shift feed use to winter that would otherwise be used in summer. RT offer a way to balance forage growth across a broader span of time and during periods where DO is higher which should lessen the risks inherent to running at high speed. Indeed having TP in the summer and RT in the winter isn't high speed in and of itself. It only becomes high speed when too many nutrients are added.

If there is one thing I try to do here it is to demonstrate that the truth about such matters isn't so black and white. "Running at high speed" isn't an obvious conclusion, rather, it is a very broad assumption that reflects perspective. I would say that while it may apply in your case it most certainly would not in mine. Only because I would have a goal optimizing production of desired and selected fish within the context of "running at modest speed". Both trout and TP have potential to enhance the production of large LMB without pushing the system. They only need to be there during their respective windows of opportunity. I am reminded of wbuffetjr's trout that 8-tuple in weight under ice with no feed at all. It would seem that the key limitation to trout is the weight they could gain after being safely released in cool water until their consumption by LMB (hopefully pre-spawn to avoid the risks which Ken mentioned). If they grow and if they are consumed by LMB, the cost per pound of forage should be no higher than fall introductions of TP.

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/12/20 11:15 AM.

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Very interesting subject here. I wonder if anyone has tried just Rainbow and Tilapia as the main forage for a trophy bass pond? I know there would be a lot of differences in what part of the country this pond is located.

A pond with additional forage such as Redear, Lake Chubsucker, different minnow species and crayfish. A larger stocking in spring stocking of TP 50/60lb per acre and a over stocking of 2oz trout going into late fall.

Could such a pond replace the BG as the backbone tried and true for pond management?

There could be a forage gap in late fall and late spring when a main forage species at that time would either have died out or not in the optimal size range for the LMB. Could the other additional forage options fill that nitch till one of the main forage options is back to full stock. ?


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Joined: May 2018
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Originally Posted by Snakebite
Very interesting subject here. I wonder if anyone has tried just Rainbow and Tilapia as the main forage for a trophy bass pond? I know there would be a lot of differences in what part of the country this pond is located.

A pond with additional forage such as Redear, Lake Chubsucker, different minnow species and crayfish. A larger stocking in spring stocking of TP 50/60lb per acre and a over stocking of 2oz trout going into late fall.

Could such a pond replace the BG as the backbone tried and true for pond management?

There could be a forage gap in late fall and late spring when a main forage species at that time would either have died out or not in the optimal size range for the LMB. Could the other additional forage options fill that nitch till one of the main forage options is back to full stock. ?

I think yes. BG would be unnecessary and the forage available to LMB on an annual basis greatly enhanced by that approach. See https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=40616&Number=527010#Post527010 where themes around your thoughts above are being discussed.

As to whether there will exist forage gaps ... I think this is always the case even with a forage fish like BG present. LMB are well adapted to consume at increased rates when food is abundant however and they do just that. Look at the most recent article at the PondBosss. See how fat that 17" LMB is in the article "Pushing the limits ..."? Must have amazing relative weight. But LMB are adapted to sequestering resources in their bodies that are later converted into growth (length) and maintenance when times are leaner. They even have the ability to atrophy for long periods in response to food shortages. The key is the consumption of prey, there must be a sufficient quantity of prey consumed annually to maintain and grow at the desired rate. The longer the periods of prey abundance are the more they can consume so yes additional species can help to fill gaps. IMHO species you mention are better than BG for this purpose ... but I think only if TP are used as a replacement for the BG.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers



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