Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Jreb79, NWFalcon, FishNut87, LUKEM, Jase0321
16933 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics38,353
Posts520,289
Members16,933
Most Online3,583
Jan 15th, 2020
Top Posters
esshup 24,590
ewest 20,345
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 13,488
Who's Online Now
5 members (LaBassmaster, RAH, John Fitzgerald, FishNut87, MrSandman), 299 guests, and 442 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #521531 05/24/20 09:28 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by Phonzie
We have never fed and currently do not. It has been discussed, but the fear is that its a short term expensive bandaid. Because what happens from December through March when the pond is frozen? Also would be a little concerned going into winter with a fish population that has been fed and grown to over capacity. Not sure if that would be a problem or not since we aerate.

Lot's of wisdom in what you wrote. Its a very productive pond anyway. The production of any mature pond without feed inputs is determined solely from mortality. What ever dies, allows other fish to grow. So removing 225 lbs of fish is worth at least 450 lbs of Optimal ... simple as that. It is likely that maximum standing weights occur in the fall and that winter determines the carrying capacity. So yes if you feed them to a greater fall standing weight ... it is possible ... even likely that the spring weights will be no higher and all the feed gains be lost. (that would stink). If one is going to feed, he needs to think about harvesting the gain the feed created or it may be completely lost.

I agree that feed as a solution to making BG bigger is short term. Feed will greatly benefit existing bass in that BG spawning will be stimulated but they will be under numbered for the task of controlling BG numbers. How do I know? Because they are under numbered to begin with. If so, then how could they possibly be strong enough in number to control BG when the production of BG is dramatically increased by feeding? Its like pushing on a string. Your approach to this problem is exemplary.

Quote
My theory on the Bass was that I think we have plenty mouths to eat the YOY with the crappie and even the BG. Or is my theory wrong and they don't eat much of each other's fry? We do catch some 8 to 12 inch bass occasionally. They certainly are not plentiful but they are there.

No it is isn't wrong. The existing BG and BCP are going to be eating fry. I guess the question is whether it will be enough to prevent a big crop of 4" BG 1 year olds next year.

Quote
I would like to end up with larger size population of all species of course. But maybe that's not possible. I think hole we have in food chain is bass to harvest bluegill and crappie we can't catch. So I am rethinking this a little now and maybe I will add 2 sizes of bass. Some 14 to 16 inches, and some 10 to 12 inches. If I can get 1 or 2 larger than 16, I will add that also.
So far we have added a 15, 16, and 3 from 13.5 to 14.5.

It just depends on the balance you are looking for. I think you can grow BG to 9" while growing LMB to 3-4 lbs. To do that I think you need to harvest BG and BCP like you do now and keep the LMB in a progression of sizes. If you want BG to reliably get larger than that, then seek to have more LMB of smaller individual weights. If you want LMB to reliably attain weights > 4 lbs, then your BG are going to be limited to smaller lengths. So its just a matter of what is important to you.

Last edited by jpsdad; 05/24/20 10:16 AM.
Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #521533 05/24/20 11:09 AM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 17
P
Phonzie Offline OP
OP Offline
P
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 17
If we would decide to feed the BG and BC and then remove some bigger fish in fall or winter ice fishing, does feeding fish affect how much fry they will eat during the months we are feeding them? I mean we need them to eat the fry to avoid a large population right ? So if we are feeding them will they feed as heavily on the offspring that is being created now ?

Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #521535 05/24/20 11:38 AM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 29
Likes: 3
B
Offline
B
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 29
Likes: 3
Keep in mind, once again, that the limiting factor on fry survival, fry recruitment, and fry advancement is availability of appropriately sized zooplankton and not the number of bluegill or crappie eating them. Only so many are going to make it regardless of the number of predators eating them. That however is only true up until the point that the young of the year quit eating zooplankton.

Last edited by brah; 05/24/20 11:59 AM.

"Daddy, why is that fish sleeping?"
Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #521539 05/24/20 01:22 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by Phonzie
If we would decide to feed the BG and BC and then remove some bigger fish in fall or winter ice fishing, does feeding fish affect how much fry they will eat during the months we are feeding them? I mean we need them to eat the fry to avoid a large population right ? So if we are feeding them will they feed as heavily on the offspring that is being created now ?

I don't know of any particular research documenting this for BG, but I do know of research pertaining to LMB and the yes feed trained bass tend to rely on feed. We must keep in mind, however, that BG do not need to be trained and have already developed the skills required to survive in the absence of feed. But then there are other variables. If feeding intensifies the natural bloom it will provide alternatives to fry and also reduce the visibility providing some level of cover. Whether, more or less fry are consumed by BG & BCP is a tough call and I don't know the answer. Even so, I do think it is probable that feeding will allow more YOY to survive due to the enhancement of bloom and fertility.

Quote
Keep in mind, once again, that the limiting factor on fry survival, fry recruitment, and fry advancement is availability of appropriately sized zooplankton and not the number of bluegill or crappie eating them. Only so many are going to make it regardless of the number of predators eating them. That however is only true up until the point that the young of the year quit eating zooplankton.

Just an anecdote but I have caught 2" BG on 1/2" Gams.

I would think that by the time BG reach 1" in size they are cannibalizing younger BG fry and other things bigger than typical zooplankton. Just keep in mind that millions upon millions of fry will swim up and there can be several peaks in spawning and BG can spawn more than once in a season. Feeding will help to boost zooplankton for the BG fry to feed on. A slaughter must take place and it does. Very few fry survive but this doesn't necessarily mean that BG are not able to over reproduce themselves. Buck & Thoits studied BG in monoculture and they attain individual counts into the 10s of thousands per acre without a predator like LMB. On their own, they cannot control their numbers except by mass mortality events where it may be said they were the cause of their own destruction.

Last edited by jpsdad; 05/27/20 06:31 AM.
1 member likes this: Snipe
Re: Fish holding capacity
jpsdad #521542 05/24/20 02:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,198
Likes: 11
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,198
Likes: 11
I am enjoying this thread immensely because it sort of pertains to my situation. Keep it going Phil.

Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #521548 05/24/20 07:24 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 29
Likes: 3
B
Offline
B
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 29
Likes: 3
Bluegill absolutely love to eat small fish. I’ve watched 11 inch bluegill eating adult gams for hours.


"Daddy, why is that fish sleeping?"
Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #521672 05/26/20 05:49 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 17
P
Phonzie Offline OP
OP Offline
P
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 17
Actually probably most of the crappies look thin. Will stunted fish grow to a reasonable size or is their potential limited due to their age ?

Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #521675 05/26/20 06:15 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 29
Likes: 3
B
Offline
B
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 29
Likes: 3
Highly limited. Lost growing seasons are never recovered fully. But that doesn’t mean they can’t be decent fish and fun to catch and eat.

Last edited by brah; 05/26/20 06:15 PM.

"Daddy, why is that fish sleeping?"
Re: Fish holding capacity
jpsdad #521677 05/26/20 06:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 270
Likes: 6
Offline
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 270
Likes: 6
Quote
To say a crappie pond that produces 8" crappie is a failure... when you think about it ... is just exactly like saying an LMB pond that produces 3 1/2 lb LMB is a failure. I would like to think that the range of "acceptable, enjoyable, and worthwhile" is much broader than that.

These are excellent points that aren't emphasized enough. Your success/failure of your pond is only determined by the goals you set. In jpsdad's example, I'd call a pond that produces 3.5lb LMB a success while another person might not be happy until its producing 5 pounders.

Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #521707 05/27/20 06:37 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by Phonzie
Actually probably most of the crappies look thin. Will stunted fish grow to a reasonable size or is their potential limited due to their age ?

How big they grow from here will depend on their age. You should expect that most of the energy is going to go into filling them out ... but they will also grow in length to. Because of this combination of effects they may not quite reach standard weight before they die or are harvested. I am eager to learn how they respond to your harvest. They have less competition and there should be very good BG fry production that will provide them the 3/4" to 1" fish they need to make the step to 10" crappie.

Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #521967 05/31/20 07:49 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 17
P
Phonzie Offline OP
OP Offline
P
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 17
Update. So far we have removed 1300 BC and BG this spring. And added 12 bass. The bass were 13.5", 2 14", 5 15 ", 2 16", 17" and 18".
My hope is that some the weight removed from the crappie and BG (around 225 lbs) will be put on the bass added to the pond by them eating 3 to 5 inch fish. Hopefully this leaves more room and forage for the remaining 8" BC and 6" BG that are left. Hopefully this allows them to reach a decent harvesting size. We shall see. We are looking at adding a few more bass yet.

The 18 inch bass added weighed 2lbs 7 oz. This seemed a little light? But it is early post spawn yet.

Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #522210 06/07/20 01:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 155
N
Offline
N
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 155
Would think having lots of BG would be good for pond with BC and LMB. Are the BG being stunted?

Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #522216 06/07/20 05:30 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by Phonzie
Update. So far we have removed 1300 BC and BG this spring. And added 12 bass. The bass were 13.5", 2 14", 5 15 ", 2 16", 17" and 18".
My hope is that some the weight removed from the crappie and BG (around 225 lbs) will be put on the bass added to the pond by them eating 3 to 5 inch fish. Hopefully this leaves more room and forage for the remaining 8" BC and 6" BG that are left. Hopefully this allows them to reach a decent harvesting size. We shall see. We are looking at adding a few more bass yet.

The 18 inch bass added weighed 2lbs 7 oz. This seemed a little light? But it is early post spawn yet.

The 18" LMB was probably standard weight pre-spawn.

OK. So based on these numbers and those that you posted in the other thread we have the beginnings of a fall forecast. Lets work the assumption that the weight harvested with be replaced through growth of the existing population. Truth be told, it should be greater than that and it is very likely that last fall's standing weight was greater than this spring's. Even so, there will be recruitment and so with a little luck the existing fish get the harvest gain and the recruits get the fall minus spring gain.

Lets convert the harvest to acres (where the gross acreage = 1.3)

225 lbs / 1.3 = 173 lbs per acre

60% BG = 103 lbs BG/acre

40% BC = 69 lbs BC/acre

Given you are in fertile farm country lets assume 500 lbs/acre for carrying capacity. This could be high or low but it is reasonable for an older bow in northern MO or southern IA. To be sure, the standing weight for LMB will probably sustainably max at 100 lbs/acre but the standing weight may be much smaller as a legacy of the fish kill earlier experienced. The 8" crappie are helping with the BG predation and so many of your BG are big enough to harvest(though smaller than you would like to have to harvest them). You should keep this in mind because at this point harvesting BC without increasing the LMB could remove some much needed BG predation.

So I think it is useful to attempt to gain a sense of what percentage of weight you harvest from each species. In the case of BC, I think you harvested a remarkable percentage of your existing fish. BC standing weights are typically less than 100 lbs but they can be as high as 170 lbs. I have never seen anything documenting standing weights greater than this though I suppose it is possible albeit unlikely. We will make an estimate and use this as a base line for forecast. Now we are going to be wrong but it is worthwhile anyway. The reason it is worthwhile is because the growth this fall will help us to estimate how much we were wrong smile and that will guide us to better numbers. I am going to assume a spring standing weight of 140 lbs BC/acre. If so, you removed half of the crappie! Well done!

Now this leaves 70 lbs of growing space and your remaining BC have the potential to double in weight. To double in weight will take them from 8" to approximately 10". Maybe a little less because they will be filling out too OR maybe a little more because the harvest will help secondary trophic organisms to be more numerous. But 10" is a good base line to look for this fall for your BC. If they exceed, then maybe the carrying capacity is less than I estimated, if they fail to achieve the 10", then maybe the carrying capacity is greater.

Now to the BG. If we assume 500 total weight/acre and that the BOW carried 50 lbs LMB and 140 lbs BC going into spring then the BG carrying capacity is 310 lbs/acre (with BC also present otherwise would be greater). So it looks like you may have harvested 1/3 of the spring standing weight of BG. Again ... Well done! Assuming your present standing weight averages 6" in length you can expect a 50% gain in individual weight and an increase to an average length of 7". What is clear is that there is much more room for you to harvest BG. And so I think you can grow the BG to an average length > than 7" (this year) if you continue harvesting through the summer. I think you could harvest an additional 100 lbs of ~ 6" most of which (weight) will be replaced anyways by Fall. Clearly, in your particular pond, the BC or more easily managed and require less harvest than the BG.

Now this takes us to Fall. Guess what? The harvest isn't over. You could harvest potentially another 90 lbs of BC still having 90 lbs to grow into impressive specimens and another 130 lbs of BG. This would take your pond into winter with 273 lbs BG, 90 lbs BC, and 65 lbs LMB(assumes 50 lbsLMB/acre) . So you would be going into winter with 329 lbs/acre in a pond that can carry 500 lbs/acre. There should be better survival and even some growth through winter under these conditions. Next year, your harvest should be easier to implement and the fish much larger than they have been.

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/07/20 05:43 PM.
1 member likes this: Pat Williamson
Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #522639 06/16/20 07:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 24,590
Likes: 25
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 24,590
Likes: 25
I would keep harvesting every crappie that you catch. With their larger mouth (gape) size, they can eat a LOT of smaller bass that would escape predation if there were only BG in the pond just doe to their gape size vs. BG. By removing a lot of crappie, you are helping the bass population and you might not even have to buy larger bass. Crappie spawn before the bass do, so they are able to eat the smaller newly hatched bass if they can get past Dad who guards the fry for a week or so after hatching.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #527017 10/23/20 02:16 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
Phonzie,

Please update us on your BCP and BG growth. After removing 225 lbs of them, would be great to hear how this harvest affected the remaining fish.

Last edited by jpsdad; 10/23/20 08:36 PM.
Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #527049 10/25/20 05:51 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,465
Likes: 23
T
Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,465
Likes: 23
I have a real problem when trying to figure fish weights per acre. In a fertile pond where visibility is low at 18 to 24" it's tough to do. I learned you can't use lmb relative weights to determine if there are too many in the pond. That did not work well enough to reduce my fish kill, most all of my lmb were over the 100%. Some fish guys recommend 30 bg to each lmb for stocking rates and then the bg spawn. You add Tp and they spawn but then they die off leaving a lower pounds per acre of fish. I may just be to dumb to figure it all out. frown


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: Fish holding capacity
TGW1 #527061 10/25/20 10:15 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by TGW1
.... I learned you can't use lmb relative weights to determine if there are too many in the pond. That did not work well enough to reduce my fish kill, most all of my lmb were over the 100%...

Tracy,

Great LMB relative weights and excessive pond standing weights, though it may seem counterintuitive, may make perfect sense if the standing weight of predators and adult prey fish are especially large. For the LMB to possess good relative weight, there must be an abundance of YOY and so when a large standing weight of predators and adult prey fish are present, good condition of the predators might indicate unusually high standing weights of prey offspring.

Especially when feeding or fertilizing to enhance the production of prey YOY, I think it is important to harvest prey fish that exceed the optimum lengths consumed by predators. In the case of feeding, at least the GAIN that the feed is contributing to prey fish adults should be harvested, IMHO.

Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #527072 10/25/20 02:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,465
Likes: 23
T
Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,465
Likes: 23
Like i said i may not be the sharpest pencil in the box. It is my understanding that you want the largest forage fish to remain in the pond because they produce the most fry that then grow into the most needed correct sized forage fish that provides the good growth to your trophy's. My first attendance to the Pond Boss Conference it was said you want couch potato bass. Meaning that the lmb never had to move much in order to eat and gain wt. And when talking about fertile water, I only fertilized that first spring. Never had to do it again. And when talking feeding the forage fish, I learned over the years I could never fill the bg up, they would just eat and eat. So when feeding, I think it should come in moderation or you might be causing water problems and low bank accounts. smile One thing I have learned is that every pond is different and mine did not fit the norm from day one. Most likely due to high forage numbers from the very beginning. My problem was with the fish was due to not knowing my plants as well as I should have known them and how fast they could take over and I won't let that happen again.

Last edited by TGW1; 10/25/20 02:37 PM.

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: Fish holding capacity
TGW1 #527073 10/25/20 03:16 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
I am always going to edit out any self-derogatory remarks anyone posts and I am just going to say that you have done nothing to deserve those self-inflicted wounds.

When your HSB died I felt your loss. But you should know that fish kill can happen in any pond whether it is fed, fertilized, or neither. That said, a kill will only happen when conditions prevail that the standing weight exceeds the carrying capacity. It is very easy for a pond to attain standing weights that exceed carrying capacity. This has happened in several ponds where the experience has be recently posted, in the case of Phonzie and another member, there were drought conditioned that concentrated fish in a small area. The reduction of volume and area was too much and fish died.

In most any year fish standing weights exceed carrying capacity and some what we may deem natural mortality occurs to restore balance. The stressful conditions take the weak and the old and we don't even notice what is happening. As Dave mentions from time to time "Lusk says that few dead fish float".

Originally Posted by TGW1
It is my understanding that you want the largest forage fish to remain in the pond because they produce the most fry that then grow into the most needed correct sized forage fish that provides the good growth to your trophy's. My first attendance to the Pond Boss Conference it was said you want couch potato bass. Meaning that the lmb never had to move much in order to eat and gain wt. smile

I've highlighted both of those sentences as go and no go. The green sentence is a go and it should come before the red sentence. What is dangerous about the red sentence is that it is just too broad and it isn't moderated by true metrics. This is a case where being true isn't all inclusive. As the biologist members say, "it depends". There is substantial evidence that there is a goldilocks standing weight of mature BG that produce the most fry. So a properly constrained true statement is that you want a goldilocks standing weight of large BG for the breeding population. Anything more than that is going to reduce production of the fry that you need to grow those LMB. You have low visibility due to fertile water and so conditions favor survival of fry and BG spawning. Tracy, sometimes the truth seems counter-intuitive but on deeper reflection will make sense. If 40 lbs/acre of BG adults is really good for the production of YOY BG ... why isn't 400 lbs of BG adults 10 times better? The answer lies in that the pond is a closed system with limited resources. You can easily fill the 360 lbs of remaining carrying capacity with YOY when the adults do not occupy it. One has to push the standing weight beyond carrying capacity to produce the same weight of YOY if the standing weight of adults is very high.

Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #527098 10/26/20 07:17 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,465
Likes: 23
T
Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,465
Likes: 23
I understand what you are saying when you have to many of the biggest cnbg. Going back to what i said earlier "trying to figure the weights of fish per acre" . My pond is not a laboratory where I can see under or through the clear water. That puts me into an educated guessing game. So, how many big cnbg is to many? It's a SWAG based on catching them and or seeing them the best you can. In my case after two shock surveys, it is a shot in time. A tool, but I am not convinced how accurate it really is. All the fish in the pond are not in shallow water. So, I can not agree or disagree with your good and well thought out comments. I am just saying it is not easy to determine when there are to many.


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: Fish holding capacity
TGW1 #527099 10/26/20 08:54 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by TGW1
I understand what you are saying when you have to many of the biggest cnbg. Going back to what i said earlier "trying to figure the weights of fish per acre" . My pond is not a laboratory where I can see under or through the clear water. That puts me into an educated guessing game. So, how many big cnbg is to many? It's a SWAG based on catching them and or seeing them the best you can. In my case after two shock surveys, it is a shot in time. A tool, but I am not convinced how accurate it really is. All the fish in the pond are not in shallow water. So, I can not agree or disagree with your good and well thought out comments. I am just saying it is not easy to determine when there are to many.

So I agree with all of this. That said, I think you are erring on the wrong side of this equation. In other words, I think that you may worry most about the most minor risks. It seems to me that your are very concerned that you will remove too many and feel more confident in having too many than too few. I would just say this.

You may be doing more harm by under-cropping than you realize and the risks of over-cropping are probably less than the risks of under-cropping .

BG grow fast. They can easily quadruple in weight in a single season. Even if you were to take out half of their weight now they'd recover their standing weight within a couple of months of the next growing season. I think a good approach is to make that SWAG and just go with it. Take 30 percent of that SWAG each late summer/fall. What you don't want to eat turn into lumps that your feed trained LMB will eat. One approach to ensuring you have plenty of the appropriately sized Male BG is to fin clip 40 lbs of them annually. They should be in the 6" to 8" range. Every other year choose a different location to clip. Once you have done this start removing fish that don't have the clip in the correct location. That is at least one way you could be sure that you have the minimum mature sized BG you need.

If you crop your mature BG, the pond will respond like a tree that has been pruned. The remaining branches (BG) will grow faster and produce more leaves (YOY). The standing weight will be able to endure temporary setbacks in carrying capacity (like extended cloudy weather). Your dependence on feed to stimulate YOY production will be reduced. Some of the nutrients will be removed by you and your guest when they are taken home for eating. It will be a win-win. You just need more faith that this action wont be harmful and more faith in your BG's capacity to fill the capacity you are creating with YOY and new breeding sized BG.

Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #527105 10/26/20 11:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,345
Likes: 24
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,345
Likes: 24
Tracy the pond you have now (current status) is not the pond you had last year. IMO you need more info on where things stand. RW on all species would help. You are correct that " It is my understanding that you want the largest forage fish to remain in the pond because they produce the most fry that then grow into the most needed correct sized forage fish that provides the good growth to your trophy's" .

Large well conditioned BG produce at much higher rates and are more successful at reproduction up through early yoy stage than average BG. What happens after that is a function of pond productivity , population dynamics (numbers and size of all species) and a lot of other factors.

I would not hazard a guess on what you should do with the facts I have. Prof Dick Anderson (he developed the concept of RW and condition) told us that you should harvest fish in the size range that looks bad (poor condition due to food shortage) until that size range condition has improved. I think that is a little vague (does not provide for the time lag involved) but the concept is right.
















Re: Fish holding capacity
ewest #527124 10/26/20 09:23 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by ewest
Large well conditioned BG produce at much higher rates and are more successful at reproduction up through early yoy stage than average BG.

To be sure BG with good RW tend to be the spawners and condition will be reflected in egg counts and effective defense of nests on an individual fish/nest basis. But I fail to see any evidence that populations of larger BG produce more offspring than populations of smaller BG. Time and again, the key factor as to whether BG grow to large sizes is how many BG there are. If taking larger BG reduced fry production, then we would see a shift to larger BG sizes as a consequence of that. Yet we don't. It turns out that after the big BG are taken, there is more reproduction and the BG of subsequent generations do not get as large. There is no evidence supporting the proposition that BG reproduction is adversely affected overall (for the BOW) or that BG populations do not swiftly recover harvested biomass. All evidence suggests that reproduction is too high to support the previous BG growth rates over time.

Originally Posted by ewest
What happens after that is a function of pond productivity , population dynamics (numbers and size of all species) and a lot of other factors.

Right, what happens after free swimming is very important as to the number of fry that develop to the 2" sizes and larger. While LMB play a role here, the dominate forces shaping survival is intra-species competition and cannibalism of the very young free swimming fry. A single pair in a forage pond can produce as many 1" to 3" offspring in a season as a 1 acre pond can with 200 equivalent pairs.

Last edited by jpsdad; 10/26/20 09:28 PM.
Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #527125 10/27/20 05:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,465
Likes: 23
T
Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,465
Likes: 23
Eric, you are so right when you said my current pond is not the pond I had last year. Fish kills really do suck. However, My learning curve over the past 6 yrs should help me grow even larger lmb faster than I did prior to the kill. What lmb that are left in the pond may not be pure Florida's and may not be pure Northern and last spring should have produced my first F1's. I had all of those fish in the pond. So, I plan on going back and adding new Florida's to what strains I have left and so it would be nice if i could have the high forage numbers. The pond does have some nice sized cnbg along with good numbers of other sizes from what I see at the two feeders. But I have no idea if I have what jpsdad says when speaking about to many. How many of the largest bg is to many? In the past years, I would remove 50 or so in the 7" range each year to make room for the new spawned fry. In the past years i have removed those 7" and then early spring add 50 lbs of FHM's to take the pressure off the bg fry. By doing this I have seen really high numbers of 2 to 3" cnbg everywhere a few months later. I will remove some again this year but I have no plans on removing the largest. It goes against what I have understood for the past 5 yrs, I will lose those fish soon enough due to age anyways. I think jpsdad may make a good case but I just can't go against what I have been told from others that are supposed to know the correct path. That is what they do for a living, they made those recommendations to keep the largest, remove some of the smaller sized, the ones the lmb can't eat because they are to large, add the fhm's and watch alot of those smaller forage sized bg show up all over the pond. I will never forget the first time I followed those recommendations made in March and by late June the 3" cnbg were everywhere. Going back, how many lbs of fish per acre is where I get lost in all of this. I have not found a way to figure it out.


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: Fish holding capacity
Phonzie #527127 10/27/20 06:48 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 774
Likes: 26
No worries Tracy. I don't make a living at this for sure. I will reiterate what I once told you. Since you are paying for help from people who have you on prescription, follow the prescription and don't deviate from it. This is especially true given what you have invested in this project.

I can't help my skeptical nature. It's just the way I am geared to think and I will challenge any hypothesis/conclusion that doesn't have support from evidence. I do have a different philosophy about pond management, this is for sure. I don't think the food chain is broken by the lack of formulated feed for example. I think population management is the best approach to meeting goals. And I think a pond should be managed to limit its biomass of fish to safe and sustainable levels that do not carry as much risk of fish kills. To me, this is the best way to approach pond management.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
BULLGILL
Recent Posts
Building new forage mini pond
by Bobbss - 11/28/20 11:20 AM
Carrying Capacity versus Pond Size
by RAH - 11/28/20 09:47 AM
will turning aeriation off help muddy water
by Flame - 11/28/20 08:53 AM
Dozers moving in.
by anthropic - 11/28/20 08:16 AM
8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
by wbuffetjr - 11/28/20 07:09 AM
Is my magazine in the mail?
by 4CornersPuddle - 11/27/20 07:19 PM
Addind LMB in cold weather
by FishinRod - 11/27/20 04:16 PM
How to kill Hydrilla?
by esshup - 11/27/20 11:12 AM
New member & New Pond
by jk96 - 11/27/20 05:41 AM
Kubota, LS, Branson & Mahindra Tractors
by RAH - 11/27/20 12:24 AM
Fountain pump help
by Bill Cody - 11/26/20 05:17 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Chara or Coontail?
Chara or Coontail?
by MrSandman, November 28
Help Identifying
Help Identifying
by KW35, October 31
Mneagle2
Mneagle2
by Michael37090, October 21
Cloud Pond
Cloud Pond
by yucky, October 16
Bass colors
Bass colors
by woodster, October 7

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4