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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #522688 06/18/20 07:53 AM
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I am in contact now with teehjaeh57 now. I will probably order some from him and apply as he recommends. I would be happy if i could just slow the leak down. I will keep you all posted with updates.
Thanks for all the help.

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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #523696 07/17/20 09:20 PM
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Hey Liquidsquid, are things still holding good?


Bob


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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #523697 07/17/20 10:11 PM
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About rocks sinking in mud: I put down some junk plywood and put the rocks on top of that. It takes a long time for exterior plywood to rot underwater.

Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
John Fitzgerald #523768 07/20/20 03:16 PM
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Please explain

Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
Bobbss #524169 07/31/20 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobbss
Hey Liquidsquid, are things still holding good?

It is holding well still. Based on observations from previous years with lack of runoff, we would have been down near 36" by now. Instead we are down about 12", 6 of which were from before I had a chance to seal the pond. It has been an exceptionally hot summer for us, so I am pleased. 6" since the application near two months ago with no runoff events is far less than I would have experienced otherwise.

The other side of the dam, areas that would have standing or slightly flowing water are now only moist if not dry. I know I still have a small leak somewhere as I loose a little more than evaporation. Honestly I cannot believe how well a single application to just the dam has performed.

I may hit is again since I have so much leftover material, and then share some with a neighbor on the same situation.

Last edited by liquidsquid; 07/31/20 02:14 PM.
Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #524171 07/31/20 05:03 PM
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Liquidsquid, that is great to hear! I will probably try it someday. I've got to get a boat first, which I'm working on.


Bob


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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
JoeDK #524172 07/31/20 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeDK
I am in contact now with teehjaeh57 now. I will probably order some from him and apply as he recommends. I would be happy if i could just slow the leak down. I will keep you all posted with updates.
Thanks for all the help.
JoeDK, did you ever get some Soilfloc?


Bob


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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
Bobbss #524264 08/03/20 12:49 PM
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Bob I did. I applied my first unit yesterday afternoon. I went thicker then recommended but I still had one unit cover about .15 acre. I’m not sure what I did wrong. I had everything mapped out and ropes up and applied 3 oz of a and b as recommended but I still stretched one unit to do almost .15 acres. I still have 2 units left I need to talk to Tj and see if I should apply more. I did put my measuring stick out last night right after application and checked it this morning about 14 hours later and it seemed to stay the same level but I am not sure if we got any rain. Can’t wait to get home tonight and check it. I will give a better explanation on what I did and the results later

Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #524268 08/03/20 01:26 PM
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TJ, if you read this, thanks again for your help. I do wonder if you are estimating a bit too aggressively on the amount of product that is needed? Several of us seemed to have at least half (or more than half) left when we applied it at the recommended rates. I had a .20 or .22 acre pond and was told to get 3 units. I used about 1.5, even putting it on heavy to try to get it at the recommended application dose. JoeDK has a smaller pond than mine at .15 acre and was told to buy 3 units as well?

Just wondered if we should have been advised to have about 1/3 less units recommended to start out with.

Not wanting to sound ungrateful as we appreciate what you do and the extra ended up providing me with 2 more applications at later dates which did some additional good too.

Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #524270 08/03/20 01:50 PM
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Below is the application formula derived following lots of projects over the past 5 years and what several pond management companies [and the manufacturer] recommend - so I borrowed their insight to help formulate the recommendations. The application formula is dependent on the accuracy of data input - daily vertical water loss and treatment area [sq ft]. Nothing I can do from Lincoln to verify that information is accurate, but I've treated all 7 of my ponds and used this same formula. On 3 ponds I had to retreat 2x in the same area because application was too light - so I don't believe [at least in those cases] the formula is an issue.

What I have learned is every pond is different - probably details far beyond our ability to measure which impacts the efficacy of the polymer - but results absolutely vary. I'm pretty transparent that in 5 cases so far the polymer treatment did absolutely NOTHING to improve the leak rate. Pond owner may have missed applying to the leaking area, might have under applied, might have applied it incorrectly - those cases continue to baffle me but I'm working on one right now and it's frustrating for everyone. Bottom line, like in pond management, nothing is certain and pond leaks behave differently - we make our best hypothesis based on the information available and hope for the best. It's not an exact science, and I'm not a scientist, I just try to help however I can as a Pond Boss volunteer.

Bear in mind the manufacturer suggested Joe treat the entire pond and his estimate was 5x higher than the project cost following our several phone calls. All I provide is the formula, the pond owner makes the decision on number of units. I'm grateful for the opportunity to make a new friend and help Joe - hopefully he sees some leak rate improvement [sounds good so far] and I'm sure he's relived saving thousands on the project from the original estimate. I'm not aware of "several" people with polymer surplus on the forum - no one has notified me directly of this. Considering the polymer saves $5-$20k in re-engineering a clay liner I always figured it was better to be safe than sorry by cutting corners, as again, I have under applied on my own projects on the farm.

Up to .25” daily vertical water loss: 1 unit treats 4,000 sq ft
.25” - .50” daily vertical water loss: 1 unit treats 3,500 sq ft
.50” - .75” daily vertical water loss: 1 unit treats 3,000 sq ft
.75” – 1” daily vertical water loss: 1 unit treats 2,500 sq ft


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #524281 08/03/20 03:15 PM
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Thanks TJ! the back information and your results with so many happy pondowners continue to show forth on this forum. I never saw the formula you list above in writing so this is very useful. Is the square foot calculation just surface square footage? I would have thought that acre-feet of water, total depth, or the way the bottom is sloped would have something to do with application rates.

I think we all wonder when we apply this how we can apply it thick enough to get best results the FIRST time. No one enjoys the slip and slide in the boat with this greasy stuff smile
To me, putting it on a bit heavy and having some left over was a fine outcome and I think my leak got better by doing 1 big dose followed by a few smaller applications as 'touchup'

Last edited by canyoncreek; 08/03/20 03:16 PM.
Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #524287 08/03/20 04:15 PM
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Sq ft of basin, not surface area. It’s a rough calculation and again none of this is exact unless we are treating a dry basin. Speaking of which I have had amazing results treating two dry basins where we stripped the liner to gravel veins, applied dry polymer, and capped with several lifts of high plasticity clay. Both ponds literally sealed like Tupperware, but 99.9% of projects occur in hydrated ponds so our control of the treatment is impacted significantly. Ideally leak identification needs to occur during excavation phase so when suspect materials are encountered one can treat them dry and cap with lifts of good clay. Unfortunately many of us (including myself) weren’t notified by professional performing work of suspect areas or we had no knowledge of treatment options so we hoped for the best and filled the pond....only to learn much later the issues we could have addressed. I will never build a pond again without having a pallet of polymer on hand just to be safe. I’ve dropped easily $50k in engineering and electric costs running well for 13 years trying to keep up with water loss - I could have saved $40k easily just by doing things right in the first place. I hope more Pond
Pros become aware of the solutions at their disposal to address suspect material issues upon discovery instead of reliving all our collective nightmares.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #524296 08/03/20 06:49 PM
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Amen to that last comment there TJ..


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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #524297 08/03/20 07:01 PM
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I’m not mad at all about the extra soilfloc I just brought it up because I wanted to make sure I applied it right. I went by ounces per square feet not units per square feet. Maybe I should of marked off 3000sq ft and applied 1 unit to that I think it would be more 10-15 ounces.

26 hours after application I looked again and the pond did drop 3/8 of an inch. I’d say normally that would be around 5/8. But I’m not sure if it rained last night and today wasn’t near as hot as it has been.
I got few questions. Last night when I went down there about 2 hours after application I reached down to the bottom and could pick up the slime off the bottom and today it is no long there. Should it disappear like that? One spot I noticed when I stirred the mud up there was like little clear balls about the size of a bb that were floating around. The other spot I didn’t notice them.
Second question I read that some times it takes up to seven days to work. Anyone notice this before?
Third question. If I want to apply a second coat on it I’m guessing I should avoid raking this time since it already has a coat on the bottom? And if I apply it to other areas am I ok to rake that to stir up the water?
Just to clarify This pond is 3/4 of an acre we were going to just try and hit the areas that I THINK It’s coming from.
Also I think next time I apply I’m going to have some bentonite on hand to help it sink.
Thanks again for everyone’s help and experience esp TJ

Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #524314 08/04/20 01:11 AM
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2-4 oz per 10 sq ft.

Cross linked polymer continues to expand over the course of 2 weeks +, keep an eye on vert water loss, it should continue to improve. You may need to retreat, let the water dictate the next move. I'm here anytime to discuss your next moves.

TJ


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #524539 08/09/20 11:32 PM
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TJ, when I dig some ponds here I will be applying it to the dry pond basin, hopefully that will work better than applying it to the water in the pond. Sandy soil here, no clay until I hit 20' depth.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #524552 08/10/20 11:37 AM
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After the first week with soilfloc I lost about 2.75 inches of water. A previous week before I applied it I lost about 3.5 inches. The only difference was it was not near as hot last week. The week before when i lost 3.5 it was 100 degrees last week was around 80. Not sure if that had anything to do with it. Another thing I noticed is that I would loose more water at night then I would during the day. I am not sure why that is I would think it would be the opposite. Any one ever seen this? This Is about 3/4 acre pond.

Over the weekend we had a big rain about 4.5 inches. It raised my pond level up about 19 inches (almost full). After the rain the water was real dirty so i decided to apply my last two units to the same area that I applied my first unit to. On the first unit I applied my measurements was off I messed up. I was thinking a 10x10 area needed 4 oz. I did not read it I just assumed. My bad. This time when i applied it I noticed it sank a lot faster I am guessing because of the muddy water. I also found out its a lot easier with a couple people.

I also put a bucket of water out to compare evaporation for this weeks results.

Hopefully it will work. I will let you know results in a couple weeks. Hopefully they are good ones!!!
If any questions or if you had a experience with soilfloc not mention on this forum send me a message I would like to learn
Thanks Joe

Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #524560 08/10/20 04:25 PM
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Sorry to hear that Joe. BIG difference in 10 square feet and 100 square feet. Hopefully it will work better this time. If you seen a little help with the last one, I would think this one would help a lot more.


Bob


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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #525348 08/30/20 06:41 PM
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An update, the (relatively) short version.
Spring 2020 - excavator took out all trees and used material from bottom of pond to fill in stump holes. Maybe 6" of water in the bottom. Found a seam of rock/sand on west side of pond that extended down at least half way to the bottom.
June 19,2020 - 5+" rain, water going over spillway, pond about 10' deep, then started losing 4 inches a day.
July 10,2020 - put in 1/4 unit of SoilFloc (throwing from the bank) when pond was down to 5' deep and about 2000 square feet, and then was losing about 1/2" a day with some small rains that kept it about 5' deep.
July 27,2020 - 3.70" rain that mostly filled it back up to about 8' deep (7" from top of my measuring post), and put in another 1/4 unit with about 9000 square feet surface area.
July 28, 2020 - another 0.75" rain.
August 1, 2020 - 8" from top of measuring post.
August 16, 2020 - 1/2 unit with pond level 18" from top of measuring post - drop of 10" in 2 weeks.
August 17, 2020 - 0.60" rain, the ONLY rain we had in August.
August 30,2020 - 22" from top of measuring post - drop of 4" in 2 weeks.

The watershed is all hayfield/pasture, about 15 acres worth, with pasture all at least 200 yards away. There is a catch pond that overflows into the main pond only with major rain events, and only a couple of acres that drain directly into the pond. Historically, pond would be dry or with 6" or less depth several months each year. Pond is a triangle, with sides about the same slope as the dam. When tested this summer, pH of 7.0, and nitrites, ammonia, and phosphates were all ZERO. Visibility maybe 18-24". Added a few dozen bait shop minnows on June 30, but haven't YET gotten a minnow trap to see how they are doing.

Will be monitoring until next spring. Pond is currently about 4' below spillway, so may get another unit of SoilFloc to apply in Spring. Would like to see the water level about 2' higher than it is now and am concerned about sand/rock seam on west side. IF water level is maintaining, then will need to start with fish. Am considering minnows, yellow perch, and small mouth bass.

SO FAR, SO GOOD!

Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #525454 09/03/20 01:39 AM
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Thanks to all forum members who take a moment and express gratitude for my humble efforts to assist in your leak [or other pond management] issues. I'm likewise grateful to meet you, learn about your ponds and goals, and hopefully seek an effective solution together. Over the past 6 years, roughly half the time we've decided to spend nothing and mitigate issues with a little creativity, donated labor and materials, or other outside the box solutions. Yet I always appreciate when you decide to go the polymer route you don't forget about the Pond Boss volunteer [and paid advertiser] and give me a call. I enjoy extending discounts to the Pond Boss family to save you a bit on the project, it's a win-win.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

[Linked Image from i1261.photobucket.com]


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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #526037 09/18/20 11:18 AM
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So I have an update on my application: I now believe I have a screwy water-table/ground water pond.

The soilfloc slowed the rate of seepage considerably this summer, knocking the rate of loss from a little less than an inch a day down to around a quarter inch or less a day on average (it was tough to measure). The back of the dam dried up, and in general a big improvement on apparent seepage on the dam. However, the water still dropped down to the same level it has in the past around this time of year, then just stays there. It just took much longer to get there this year. At this point my losses go to bathtub range, but at almost 3' down.

Eventually we will get enough rain (I hope) to get runoff again to top it off. But I think I have seams on the uphill side that go both ways for water flow depending on ground water. I think this is confirmed in the winter when the pond is full since I cannot get thick ice near that side of the pond. I am guessing I always have some amount of water flowing in and out, so I probably wont get Soilfloc to go into a seam where water is coming out.

Any experience with this scenario?

Drat.

Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #526057 09/18/20 09:14 PM
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Liquidsquid
I wonder if when the pond is at it's fullest and just starting to drop so you know things are flowing out, then treat it again with soilfloc. I would think if you could get it to seal up enough to keep it higher than the trouble area that the pressure would keep the flow going out instead of in.
Also maybe it would be worth trying to pump a little more water out while it's at the level that it holds steady, to see if it comes back up on it's own or not, so you'll know for sure if it flows both ways. Maybe you're just getting below the troubled areas?

Last edited by Bobbss; 09/18/20 09:18 PM.

Bob


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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #526435 09/29/20 05:54 PM
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I haven't read every post on this thread, but I had a question. Can SoilFloc be used to keep clay particles "trapped" on the bottom of a pond, so they don't redistribute into the water column? I'm going to have a lot of exposed clay with steep runoff hills nearby on my pond that's almost completed, and I worry that it's going to be constantly muddy until I get some grass growing (and probably some erosion mats, or geotextile fabric).

Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #526436 09/29/20 07:48 PM
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Steve, I've probably read every post on Soilfloc i can find. I could be wrong but I think it will help settle what is already in the pond at the time of treatment and maybe even help hold it down some until it gets disturbed. I don't think it will do anything for new stuff coming in after treatment.


Bob


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Re: SoilFloc Polymer Sealant
teehjaeh57 #526441 09/30/20 12:16 AM
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The linear polymer is a flocculant and binds with suspended clay particles and drops to pond basin and, depending on the treatment area/application amount, can have a major impact on clarity. On one of my micro ponds [.2 AC] my visibility went from 18" to 9' overnight following polymer treatment. I have some PB family who order the linear polymer [floc] to clear their ponds annually as for them it's more readily available [quick email to me], cheaper, and easier/safer to apply than alum which always requires a hydrated lime treatment to buffer the PH drop. Hydrated lime isn't much fun it's highly caustic - ask Rex Rains for some photos of his arms almost burned to the bone! Good times. I wouldn't recommend alum/lime treatments unless using an experienced pro, like I did, with Rex.

Steve - your new pond will be turbid for a while, so I'd focus my efforts and budget on straw mats and getting seed down and keeping it as moist between rains ASAP. Contact your local pros for recommendations on the quickest seed to germinate for the specific season and region you'll plant and include some warm and cool season grasses as well to germinate later. For us in NE Russian Wheat, Annual Rye, and Oats pop fast but in the Fall I like fescue blends and always include some warm season natives like Big/Litte Bluestem, Indiangrass, Switchgrass, etc. to germinate later. I love sedges, rushes and arrowhead as emergent and shoreline vegetation as it spreads fast and really helps stabilize shorelines from wave action.

When your pond is completed perform jar test to determine you don't have an ionic imbalance. We don't see those too often around the forum, and I suspect you'll be OK without having to consider managing turbidity outside of getting your watershed established ASAP. I'm always here to chat about watershed management as I've done it dozens of times now and figured out every way to screw it up - email me anytime buddy happy to help my PB family.

tj@hudlandmgmt.com


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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