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Originally Posted by Snipe
" Prey that can persist without extirpation, that remain small and vulnerable to predators throughout life, have high reproduction rates, produce large crops of offspring relative to their standing weight, exploit lower trophic levels, and have short spans of life that turnover the population are what I would consider "ideal" for this purpose."

I like this. This is also one of the reasons I felt the Red shiner would fit well. They seldom achieve a size larger than 3" but have the same body mass as a slightly larger GSH without the potential of outgrowing the predator and turning the table as GSH do.

I agree with your thoughts on the red shiner. At this point, your pond is only one I am aware of where red-shiner have been introduced. It's very special in that regard and I am following your progress with them with great interest.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Agree, this is interesting. I've heard of red shiners but am not familiar with them. Sounds like a great fish.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Where would someone find red shiners


Im going to ask a lot of questions, but only because I'm clueless


5-20 Acres in Florida. Bass/Tilapia/Bowfin/Gator
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CityDad, there are a few aquarium hobbyist that handle a few to the tune of about 5-7$ each plus shipping. I'm fortunate enough I've found a location about 2.5hrs from me where I have an endless supply now so as far as numbers I have not found any other source but they are widely distributed in the wild. As young, they are quite hard to identify. The adults are "almost" unmistakable.
I have not searched widely on the east coast, there may possibly be someone handling them but it's been a long, hard search.

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Got my interest piqued as well. I've found that I have better luck if I search for Rainbow Dace instead of Red Shiner, since that is another name for them. I've found lots of websites that have them, but all are out of stock. I'll keep looking.


"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." - Donny Miller
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With regard to Snipe's red shiners, please keep in mind that he lives right in the heart of red shiner country. They are ubiquitous where he lives. Red shiners have a very broad native range so they are appropriate a lot of pondboss members. A good rule of thumb? Does your water drain to the Mississippi River? If it empties in the Gulf east of the Mississippi, the Pacific or Atlantic, you can rest assured that the powers that be fear this minnow, don't want you to bring it in, and probably have laws prohibiting them.

The good news is that there are closely related shiners in those watersheds that have shown promise ponds also. Satinfins and blacktails for example. What about the many miniature versions of sunfish that the Atlantic drainages are so blessed with? There is so much opportunity to learn and perhaps exploit locally collected specimens.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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To emphasize what Bill said - not a lot of evidence to rely on and waters differ in immense proportions. Standing stock (carrying capacity) can be hugely different so average numbers from studies are only a very rough guess at what to expect. Waters can vary from very low productivity 50 lbs per acre to very high 2500 lbs - in natural waters with little human harvest. Some very balanced to totally out of balance. It depends - a lot !
















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I came across this thread looking for some more information on OSS and SMB. It just happed to have a ton of info I was curious about.

I soon may be able to add to this conversation. I will be doing some baitfish seining this spring. My goal is a diverse pond. I have been getting some fish from Snipe and following some of his advice, and I have gone my own direction a few times before asking him for advice. My Pond was constructed summer of 2020. 4.5-5 acres, 4 deep holes of greater than 15 foot. 2 acres of shallow wetland. Rip-raped dam. Clay Bottom. Central Kansas I-70 Corridor. Average depth when full around 9 Ft in spring and in Fall 6 Ft.

Baitfish Species Stocked:
Fatheads
Bluntnose
Red shiners
Creek Chubs
Gambusia
Golden Shiners
Goldfish (yes I know that was Dumb)

Panfish Species Stocked:
Orange Spotted Sunfish
Longear sunfish
Bluegill
Redear
Yellow Perch

Predators:
Wallyeye
Saugeye
Smallmouth
Albino Catfish

Un-Wanted Species Present: Came in when pond filled. In the process of heavy culling.
Bullhead
Green sunfish


I Stocked pretty light on my species as far as numbers per acre and got the yellow perch and smallmouth bass in a bit later than planned. My Walleye and Saugeye may now be stocked a bit high due to ladder stocking them. At the moment WE and SAE seem to be controlling BG numbers but it also may be to early to tell as some of the eyes should still be young. My hope is that the BG, LES, and OSS will help feed the SMB and Eyes. I put the LES and OSS in thinking their smaller size may feed some predator fish through the colder feeding months due to their smaller size and the BG reproduction will produce enough to feed them though the warmer heavy feeding months. A few of my YP should be spawning this spring but only had about 30-40 that will be old enough.

I hope one of my bait species starts to shine above the others. Right now the fish seem to be growing well across the board. I am seeing some of my medium sized BG and RES (3-5in) looking a touch light but not terrible. I do not seem to have a overpopulated BG population and have fish across all size classes. I know this is not conventional stocking but it is what I wanted to do. Hopefully I will be able to report back with some more observations.

Pond is fished frequently (3-4 times a week) only fish culled are BH and GSF up to this point. Hybridization has been witnessed in the panfish species,

All species have been caught, seined, or witnessed by some method in the past year.

I have enjoyed all your comments on this thread, and hope they keep coming!

Steve

Last edited by Donatello; 03/27/24 03:13 PM.

5 Acre Pond- Ave Depth 7 ft- Max Depth 18 Ft.
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Nice report!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Good report - thanks. Are you feeding the sunfish?
















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Last year just feed a low quality food periodically 4-5 times a week, Plan on High Quality feed with Automatic feeder this Spring. Just a "Broke Teacher" here, Thanks guys, I try to keep my eye on it closely. There have been some Hiccups, but things are headed in the right direction.


5 Acre Pond- Ave Depth 7 ft- Max Depth 18 Ft.
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