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Re: A Crappie Problem
SethM #518933 04/05/20 10:31 PM
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Thank you JPsDad. I’m excited to check them to see where they’re at compared to the standard. Visually they don’t look thin to me. This is a cool way to know for sure. Who knows I might have just gotten used to skinny bass and they look normal to me lol. I printed off the ones for LMB BG and CC and Bull head too. I’m gonna hang them in my office lol. I’ll update this weeks as to where my spots stand compared to standard. Thanks again for all the help and advice.

Re: A Crappie Problem
Nathan&Kelly #518945 04/06/20 08:14 AM
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Your most welcome Nathan.

If you are going keeping records there's an app out there that Bob Lusk mentioned. I'll also attach an excel spreadsheet that you can use. A whole lot of fish species standard weights are formulated in it including all that you presently have. Its not difficult to use. You will enter the trip on the second page and then on the first page you will enter the fish. Its pretty flexible and allow you to enter catches under 3 approaches. With length and weight measurements per fish, with length measurements per fish, and with a weight measurement of a group of fish. For the first, RW are computed, for the second a estimate of weight based on standard weight, for the 3rd an estimate standard lengths. There is enough detail in the SS to gain insights into trends of fish condition, size distribution, and quality of fishing. If you keep records in the SS, would be great for you to post it from time to time in a thread of your own making.

Well ... I thought I was going to post the excel workbook but the attachment manager is on the fritz. keep looking, I'll try again later.

Last edited by jpsdad; 04/12/20 07:46 PM.
Re: A Crappie Problem
SethM #518953 04/06/20 10:07 AM
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I suspect that most all the spotted bass in the 10-13" range will be slightly under weight. Or most of those in whatever size group is most abundant in your pond. Lots of one size is likely overeating the ideal food sizes. Plus your larger spots could be underweight due to them not having enough of the large sizes of food they need to get the optimum growth? Keep in mind that the females pre-spawn will all have high RW compared to post spawn - summer RW. Use common sense when evaluating the RW results. RW as fish body condition tends to change throughout the seasons.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/06/20 10:11 AM.

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Re: A Crappie Problem
SethM #519879 04/24/20 07:56 AM
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So I’ve started recording catches. I’ve only logged about 30 fish so far but I’m shocked. My bg though small in numbers are large in size. My average rw is about 105%. However my bass are not nearly as good as I had expected. All caught so far were 9.5-13 inches and my rw is ranging from 73-78%. I really thought I’d be better off than the numbers prove I am. On culling, is it better to get them out pre spawn or wait a few weeks till post spawn? I was thinking about doing a single day fishing derby and fish fry and inviting out some family and buddy’s for a safe social distancing outdoor event with 7-10 guys keeping everything in that 9-13” range. Is there a benefit to doing it before or after spawn?

Re: A Crappie Problem
Nathan&Kelly #519894 04/24/20 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Nathan&Kelly
On culling, is it better to get them out pre spawn or wait a few weeks till post spawn? I was thinking about doing a single day fishing derby and fish fry and inviting out some family and buddy’s for a safe social distancing outdoor event with 7-10 guys keeping everything in that 9-13” range. Is there a benefit to doing it before or after spawn?


That is a thought provoking question. If done pre-spawn, then perhaps fewer fingerlings are produced but because of pre-spawn harvest fewer are cannibalized. Then the vice-versa if done post-spawn, more fingerlings are produced but perhaps more are cannibalized. It might depend on how long after the spawn one begins culling in order to the give the culls a chance to thin 0 year recruits. Maybe the best is pre-spawn if goal is reducing recruitment. All in all it may balance. To be sure, the culling will help with growth and RW either way.

Last edited by jpsdad; 04/24/20 11:45 AM.
Re: A Crappie Problem
SethM #524201 08/01/20 03:55 PM
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This year I have only taken out about 25 crappie.

Think I may have decimated the population.

Wierd weather may have also kept them from a successful spawn.

Re: A Crappie Problem
nvcdl #524209 08/01/20 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by nvcdl
This year I have only taken out about 25 crappie.

Think I may have decimated the population.

Wierd weather may have also kept them from a successful spawn.

I thought the same thing except this spring I watched the BG attack and eat the eggs. They did the same thing to the bass .... I can’t catch any crappie now I think due to BG and LMB eating the 8” BCP

Re: A Crappie Problem
SethM #524210 08/01/20 09:17 PM
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One observation I have seen with BCP and especially with WAE is when you have a massive hatch, very few survive because of numerous variables-one being competition for food.
With low survival, as things begin to regain a balance, the number of (low) survivors begin to grow very rapidly. By yr 2 these survivors are very healthy and in above average condition come spawning time. In my latitude this shows up about every 4th year and I believe in some cases it's just a cycle they go through when conditions are not absolutely favorable.
jpsdad is right in that it's a thought provoking question but for the purpose of removing numbers I think I would blast them pre-spawn/spawn, and "maybe" the predators will leave less to grow-that do hatch.
By doing this you are leaving more at the bottom of the food chain which IMO is most important for more uniform balance.
My 2 cents..


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Re: A Crappie Problem
Snipe #524212 08/01/20 09:54 PM
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So Snipe what do you do if you want BCP?

Re: A Crappie Problem
SethM #524214 08/02/20 12:07 AM
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Pat, I think in your case, the density of both larger LMB and numerous sizes and high density of BG are (ironically) the perfect answer to BCP control, but I do understand you desire BCP and in my mind that's going to be tough to achieve.
If more dense habitat is added, it obviously affects more than the 1 element we are targeting and in your case it may be advantageous to eliminate some percentage of habitat. Your crappie are being blasted from both ends-effective control..
I'm not sure that I'm qualified to suggest a fix in this case because there are always more variables present than what we see on the surface and one change may throw 6 others out of whack.
I would prefer control by LMB if they can keep up, but removing habitat that supports recruitment of the troublemaker BG to allow more predation on them will affect bass growth and the total predator/prey relationship will change.
The question to me is will LMB more likely target BG or will they also utilize YOY Crappie as well?
The situations I'm used to dealing with are getting BCP under control so this is somewhat backwards to what my experience has been.
To me, this is a perfect example of why BG can over-run a SMB (intended as Apex Predator) situation.. If LMB can't keep numbers down, maybe a massive harvest effort of ALL BG and some thinning out a few small LMB "may" help.

Last edited by Snipe; 08/02/20 12:16 AM.

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Re: A Crappie Problem
Snipe #524226 08/02/20 01:32 PM
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Well it seems that we have to reverse common thinking on this one . Been removing large LMB and transferring them to my neighbors pond. When it cools this fall I will remove and transfer as many BG as I can trap or catch. I’m figuring on about a 1000 to start with along with all the LMB that are eating the larger BCP (8”). And see if that helps. I know it’s like balancing on a knife edge but think it can be done. All suggestions are welcome to attain some kind of goal

Re: A Crappie Problem
SethM #524291 08/03/20 06:23 PM
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This is very interesting to me..
I'm probably going to expose my weakness here but oh well.
My thoughts on removing the larger LMB is that is leaves the gate open for more BG to be left to spawn. Yes, it's removing the largest of the predator that "may" be controlling BCP to some extent but what Data do we have that says the large LMB are targeting BG over BCP or visa versa?? They are going to eat what is most abundant and "catchable"..In my small mind that's not the BCP as there is little slip-through, which I would think there would be some larger crappie showing up, but there isn't. My thought process says they are being taken out before that stage.
I do believe jpsdad is on to something with the density of BG hammering the nest and hatch of any BCP, so... in my mind this would be a multiple-step process. If 1,000's of BG are removed, some bass would need to be removed as well, possibly large and small sizes only if harvest of BG exceeds demand for forage. I think it would need to be an extensive harvest of BG and at some point BCP would have to be reintroduced to start refilling the gap left from the lack of BG for forage with the understanding you need the BCP to reproduce very prolifically in the beginning, So...again, we need the number of small bass and BG at a low enough point we get some slip-through of BCP.
The number of BG to be removed "could" be in the multiples of 1,000's..
On a side note, my pond is quite small compared to yours and yesterday I ran a small fry net around some small patches of floating FA attached to small shore-bound structures such as a tumbleweed. The number of 1/2" to 1" BG I netted from those very small areas literally scared me. They are not being decimated by what I'm seeing visually-at that size, but by what I'm seeing of last years hatch there is a good number being utilized and I don't have LMB.. SMB, YP and Saugeye are my top predators. I do have a few HSB but less than a dozen. By their growth rate, they are eating a lot of "something".


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Re: A Crappie Problem
Snipe #524307 08/03/20 09:58 PM
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I don’t see any weakness in your outside the box thinking. I agree with what you said although I didn’t think multiple 1000s of BG would need to go but hey you are lot more in the know than me so we have plan....know anyone that wants some CNBG? Free! We had a bumper crop of LMB two years ago so they,BG are the target species. Snipe the LMB I think target the BCP of 8” cause of their shape whereas a 8” BG is harder to swallow. Used to catch 8” BCP all the time, now can’t catch hardly any. After catching a couple 10# + LMB I know why.....

Re: A Crappie Problem
SethM #524331 08/04/20 08:15 AM
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I would think you could make a crappie fishing trip and using snipes salt treatment move them into the pond instead of eating them. In the beginning of my pond I had to add some 12 to 14" Lonestar legacy lmb into my pond due to to many bg and no lmb reproduction. If your crappie numbers are low then why not add some more to the pond? You might need to make some room for them and it seems like you are already doing that.

Last edited by TGW1; 08/04/20 08:17 AM.

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Re: A Crappie Problem
TGW1 #524347 08/04/20 11:41 AM
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Tracy I caught 10 from my next door neighbor ( I put them in last year) they were15-16” long so that’s a start,till I get some more big LMB out they will eat anything 8” and down

Re: A Crappie Problem
SethM #524352 08/04/20 12:43 PM
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An update on my progress. I’ve removed 246 BCP most were in the 8-12 inches range with a few smaller and 2 15inch ones. I’ve also culled roughly 40 bass in the 10-13” range. I’ve added 15lbs of golden shimmers and 15lbs Of fhm and I have a Tx hunter fish feeder running 2 times a day with AquaMax MVP. I can still catch crappie on minnows in the middle, but the most exciting thing is I have seen a significant improvement in the number of bluegill. I have 5 times the number of beds compared to last year and you can see small bluegill everywhere along the shoreline. Something you didn’t see at all last year. I haven’t checked the RW of the bass since the spring but can only imagine with less competition they are growing better. You guys are amazing thank you for all the sound advice. It is showing results already!

Re: A Crappie Problem
Pat Williamson #524379 08/04/20 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Pat Williamson
Originally Posted by nvcdl
This year I have only taken out about 25 crappie.

Think I may have decimated the population.

Wierd weather may have also kept them from a successful spawn.

I thought the same thing except this spring I watched the BG attack and eat the eggs. They did the same thing to the bass .... I can’t catch any crappie now I think due to BG and LMB eating the 8” BCP

By fishing hard I caught 8 smallish crappie over the last couple days and lost a couple more when landing. Still a few crappie in the pond but I am making an impact.

Also caught my first decent bass this year - nice 4.5 lb one on a small chatter bait.

Last edited by nvcdl; 08/04/20 07:48 PM.
Re: A Crappie Problem
Pat Williamson #524383 08/05/20 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Pat Williamson
I don’t see any weakness in your outside the box thinking. I agree with what you said although I didn’t think multiple 1000s of BG would need to go but hey you are lot more in the know than me so we have plan....know anyone that wants some CNBG? Free! We had a bumper crop of LMB two years ago so they,BG are the target species. Snipe the LMB I think target the BCP of 8” cause of their shape whereas a 8” BG is harder to swallow. Used to catch 8” BCP all the time, now can’t catch hardly any. After catching a couple 10# + LMB I know why.....

This may or may not be the case.. I have to keep in mind that there may be other reasons for this.. some we may not understand yet, such as the required forage for BCP to do best. Do we know that element is present for sure? What does the intermediate size structure of LMB look like and how has it affected the available (read preferred) forage for the advanced BCP, which will be competing for a size similar to what most of those intermediate bass are looking for. Did we run into a wall on forage availability?
I'm not going to say BCP won't eat small BG but I don't believe that's high on the preferred list.
What I'm trying to say is there may be things changing that we can't see-maybe some of those elements that aren't so obvious we can point a finger at it without question.
I'm glad to hear the other posters are having success removing Crappie, but I also know by changing 1 element in the pond setting, there are multiple changes-or can be multiple changes that occur that we may not plan for.
One thing I feel fairly confident in saying is that the younger the fish the more diverse it's diet is, which I can also say with some certainty that as a fish grows, it "can" and usually does begin to use prey items that are not as frequently used by smaller fish. Behavior and patterns change and I am no expert at putting my fingers on that in this case.
I do NOT want to cause an imbalance based on a lack of knowledge here. I would love to hear some input by Lusk, jpsdad, Cody, ewest and the likes here to see if my thought train is way off base.

Last edited by Snipe; 08/05/20 01:26 AM.

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Re: A Crappie Problem
SethM #524394 08/05/20 11:13 AM
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Very good points Snipe.

Understanding changes in the food web (not a chain as it is not a straight line link to link concept) is very complicated. Each one is different and "it depends" is most obvious in this area of management.

What you are referencing is - Trophic cascade, an ecological phenomenon triggered by the addition or removal of top predators and involving reciprocal changes in the relative populations of predator and prey through a food web, which often results in dramatic changes in ecosystem structure and nutrient cycling.

Snipe says " One thing I feel fairly confident in saying is that the younger the fish the more diverse it's diet is, which I can also say with some certainty that as a fish grows, it "can" and usually does begin to use prey items that are not as frequently used by smaller fish. Behavior and patterns change and I am no expert at putting my fingers on that in this case."

Most species are opportunist feeders - they eat what the can. Some are limited by physiology others are more generalists. Lots of variables there. Also time is a critical element - some species at a certain time (usually as yoy fish) are dependent on the hatch of a specific food source (plankton/fish). If that food source is not there or late a whole year class of the feeding fish can be decimated. Crappie are known for large shifts in population structure , spawning success and reproduction. That is why they are usually not suggested for ponds.

Last edited by ewest; 08/05/20 11:13 AM.















Re: A Crappie Problem
ewest #524406 08/05/20 05:30 PM
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If BCP don’t eat BG then what do they eat? There are shiners, shad as of last fall. Don’t know if they are present any more, this year is the first year to not have an algae/ plankton bloom I think due to the large amount of slender spikerush that is all around the entire edge. Water clarity is in the neighborhood of 2-3’. I have always heard that BCP eat mainly plankton up until 8” then switch to a diet of fish. There are lots of questions and doesn’t seem to be many answers at this point as to what to do to correct this

Re: A Crappie Problem
SethM #524416 08/05/20 11:03 PM
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Pat, I can add this much from another prospective.. In our smaller state lakes/community lakes where BCP have been a problem, we started introducing Saugeye about 16 years ago. What we found was that in years where hatch was very successful the LMB could not control the crappie and that year class became stunted before year 3 at about 5-6", and stayed that size. The fall samples of BG did not change from 1 year to another per unit effort but the LMB did. LMB sample rates went down in years following the second season of monster crappie hatch.
We have 1 35 ac lake that has LMB, B/WCP, CC, BG, RES, HSB. In 2011 we sampled several Bass for age structure because we seldom sampled LMB over 17". What we found was most LMB under 11" were SEVEN yrs old (most 8-11" fish were the same age). But the lake was full of YOY B/WCP, BG, GSD, GSH and RES. The crappie were stuck at 4-6", yet very high numbers of the other species listed.
Enter the Saugeye..
After 2 full seasons after stocking fry, crappie numbers were lower, sizes represented were more uniform per age structure with fish pushing the 9" mark, and BG numbers remained basically unchanged per unit sampled but size structure changed with some 8"+ BG showing up.
In the following year fall sampling we found LMB showing up in good numbers from 12-15" that had not been present before in any numbers. The crappie continue to grow, BG have been very steady and we have some true giant Saugeye in this impoundment.
This has been in the hands of many of the State's smartest folks and nobody has a good explanation as to why the LMB were not growing prior to the Saugeye introduction to control the abundant B/WCP. Was it suppression?? I'm not sure, but some things happened that were unplanned to say the least.
One would think 4-5lb bass would hammer crappie at the stunted sizes we've seen but every time we have seen stunted crappie, the LMB are absent both in number and size. One could assume reproduction was suppressed by crappie, yet none of the other species present proved that to be true.
This is why I hesitate to recommend a fix to get your crappie back because I don't feel I'm qualified or knowledgeable enough to do so. I'm loving the interactions here though.


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Re: A Crappie Problem
SethM #524417 08/06/20 12:02 AM
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Back when I lived in the Midwest saugeye were considered a good sportfish & particularly fine eating, though they were bred artificially. They do grow quite large in the proper environment. Wonder if they are generally successful in controlling Crappie? If so, could it be that saugeye become active in colder temps than LMB?

Last edited by anthropic; 08/06/20 12:04 AM.

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Re: A Crappie Problem
Snipe #524418 08/06/20 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Snipe
What we found was most LMB under 11" were SEVEN yrs old (most 8-11" fish were the same age).

That's shocking. Can you imagine how LITTLE an 11" bass has eaten in 7 years to be that small? An 11" bass should be between 1.5 and 2 years old, IIRC.

Re: A Crappie Problem
anthropic #524419 08/06/20 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by anthropic
Back when I lived in the Midwest saugeye were considered a good sportfish & particularly fine eating, though they were bred artificially. They do grow quite large in the proper environment. Wonder if they are generally successful in controlling Crappie? If so, could it be that saugeye become active in colder temps than LMB?

Yes, they are more active in cooler temps. They also have the same abilities the walleye have and can feed very effectively at night.
In KS, Saugeye are used primarily as a crappie control tool now but they are utilized in a couple of areas where fast growth is needed alongside panfish control. Probably the most effective crappie predator there is that can handle the full spectrum of water quality and higher temp conditions unlike the pure WAE.


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Re: A Crappie Problem
Snipe #524433 08/06/20 09:27 AM
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Snipe that still doesn’t answer the problem of most of the once abundant 8” crappie disappearing and BG increasing small and large. Most of the LMB that are caught are 11-13” from two years ago spawn. Since the LMB were bucket stocked I have no clue as to how many were large LMB are in there but it seems that there might be quite a few due to the BCP population decreasing so rapidly and the BG population increasing. I’m still leaning toward removing several thousand larger BG an see if the remaining BCP can pull off a comeback

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