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New 22 acre lake
#522840 06/23/20 12:47 PM
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We put in 22,000 bait fish, bluegill, red-ear, thread-fin and fathead minnows last Fall. Now it is time for the bass. We are considering Camelot Bell fingerlings. They are pricey and we are going to put 250 to 300 of them. The guy who sold us the bait fish wants to put in 2200 Florida strain fingerlings. Are we ok just putting in 250-300 of the Camelot Bell fingerlings? We were hoping to have the best genetics with Camelot Bell. Any opinions would be appreciated.

Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522842 06/23/20 01:28 PM
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What is your goal ? If it is large LMB then you should not put in 100 LMB per acre. That is to many IMO.
















Re: New 22 acre lake
ewest #522848 06/23/20 03:47 PM
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Are the BG spawning? I don’t know about the numbers of Camelot bass but have heard that they are hard to catch, but mixing them with northern seems to work

Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522852 06/23/20 04:36 PM
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I have to agree with Eric and Pat. I also think your forage numbers might be a little low for a lake that size when adding 100 lmb per acre. I might be wrong but if you added 10,000 TFS (a normal stocking rate for TFS). If this is correct, then your other forage is @ or around 550 bg/res per acre or a 5 to 1 stocking rate. I understand by now you should have had at least one spawn with the bg/res. I would suggest a little more reading here in the past forums when it comes to how many bg/res to each bass stocked. But again, it depends on your goals for the lake. I am guessing your goal might be a trophy lmb lake because of the CBLMB and the additional Flmb? In the last 5 yrs I have added all three of the above mentioned lmb.


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Tracy
Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522863 06/23/20 11:52 PM
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RTM, I started with Camelot Bell, aka Lone Star Legacy, but then added some northern strain LMB. Catch rates went up quite a bit, though I'm sure that there's been a lot of crossbreeding. F1 might be the best bet for aggressive, catchable LMB that get double digit size. But if your goal is 13 plus LMB, CB make sense. Just don't expect a lot of bites as they get big, other than on live bait.


8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 113




Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522871 06/24/20 08:17 AM
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In such a situation, why would it be unwise to stock just fifty Camelot Bell and, across the pond, stock fifty Northerns. It would seem that the pond would be fully stocked with the first spawn.

Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522875 06/24/20 10:31 AM
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I agree with Dudley. Let time do its work and watch the balance going forward. FYI suggested stocking rates for BG/RES and LMB vary based on goals. Newer data on ponds for big LMB suggest stocking of small stocker BG/RES to LMB at 20 to 30 to one rather than the old 10 to 1.
















Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522880 06/24/20 12:21 PM
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Thanks for the replies.

Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522901 06/25/20 09:30 AM
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CB are pure Florida LMB. I can't imagine that they are genetically superior to any other pure Florida in spite of their claims. They came from Florida. I would stock pure Florida fingerlings and feed them well. We're just east of Tyler about 15 miles.

Last edited by RossC; 06/25/20 09:31 AM.

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Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522928 06/26/20 07:07 AM
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The CB/Lonestar legacy lmb have a turquoise bar across their nose area that other FLMB do not have. I herd (here say) there was a time where Todd Overton worked on a Patton with the fish because of that trait along with a more aggressive attitude and because they are of Pure breed they have seen the fish grow in excess of 19 lbs in Texas ponds/lakes. Maybe even larger, it's been a few years since I looked into their weight gains. Maybe Todd will jump in for more info. It's been awhile since I last saw his post's here.


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Tracy
Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522936 06/26/20 09:30 AM
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Both the CB/Lonestar LMB tend to have very thick tail segments. Many biologist say this characteristic tends to lean towards trophy bass.


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Re: New 22 acre lake
RossC #522937 06/26/20 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by RossC
CB are pure Florida LMB. I can't imagine that they are genetically superior to any other pure Florida in spite of their claims. They came from Florida. I would stock pure Florida fingerlings and feed them well. We're just east of Tyler about 15 miles.

Targeting aggresiveness or marking traits in sunfish can sure be done. Condello strain northern bluegill comes to mind. IIRC, TJ has Hudland strain smallmouth as well. Having said that, it's not unreasonable to think Florida LMB are no different, and can be breed for particular traits.

Here, I'm targeting red tailed CNBG for my forage pond breeders, with red tail with fin tipping being the Holy Grail.

As far as aggressiveness, there's always jumpers/cannibals that outgrow, and are more aggressive, than the rest of the fish from that spawning period. To the victor go the spoils, and those would be my obvious choice for breeders.

Less common Red Tailed CNBG
[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

Very common green tailed CNBG
[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

Last edited by FireIsHot; 06/26/20 09:33 AM.

AL
Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522939 06/26/20 09:49 AM
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Al, I am pretty sure I have both red tailed and white tipped tail cnbg in the pond. Maybe some green tailed ones also, although I am not sure about those? I have stocked cnbg on 3 different occasions. Maybe that is why I have some verity? If you don't mind me asking, Why are you doing the red tailed? Benefits ?


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522945 06/26/20 10:57 AM
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Tracy, if you got them from Todd, you probably do have some of the red tailed ones. No reason other than they're pretty, and I need something to focus on. If I was still a thinker bee, which I'm not anymore, I would say that a color change is the easiest way to evaluate how dominant a new strain becomes, and how quickly that happens. It took around 4-5 years for Todd's CNBG to become the dominant strain in my big pond(12 acres).

This is one of my original stockings from Tyler Fish Farm. IIRC, Bob's original stock came directly from Florida, and were brutes. I rarely catch one this dark anymore.
[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

This is one of Todd's CNBG, and it sure ain't bad to look at, and they're brutes as well.
[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

Last edited by FireIsHot; 06/26/20 10:59 AM.

AL
Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522974 06/27/20 07:15 AM
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Those two cnbg are sure nice looking brutes. I just learned from you that water clarity is not the only thing that influences the darker or lighter colored cnbg. smile I thought a cnbg is a cnbg. You know, I thought that copper color band across the bridge of the nose (as your picture shows on the lighter one) was what distinguished them from native bg along with them growing larger than our Native bg. Does that darker one have the copper bridge?

RTM, did not mean to hijack your thread on your new 22 acre lake. But Al, shares a lot of information for us all.


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #522976 06/27/20 09:03 AM
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Pics above. WOW.

Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #523121 07/01/20 07:33 AM
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All very interesting. Bob at Tyler Fish Farms is supplying all of our bait fish and LMB as well. We decided against the CB fingerlings.

Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #523129 07/01/20 10:05 AM
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Suggest all read this on fish coloration/change. Al's second fish above could have the same coloration as his first in a matter of seconds.

BG are the original quick change artists. laugh

I have observed them changing color for a bunch of reasons including spawning , water clarity, pond bottom color ,light intensity, dominance signals , and a whole host of stress factors.

Their genes must provide for active and sensitive chromatophores.

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthre...Chromatophore&Search=true#Post143640

Long before aquariums we've known that fishes change color in response to their background, and that they change color during exercise and courtship. These changes in appearance are under the control of pigment containing cells called "chromatophores".

Some examples of this loss of dark color are ... sunfishes (Lepomis) that can quickly blanch from dark to light or come back again given fright or excited states.

Chromatophore changes can be divided into two categories, morphological and physiological. Morphological changes are usually evoked by maintaining an organism in a given setting, on a specific background for a number of days.
Physiological color changes involve alteration of pigment granules causing dispersion or aggregation consequent to various stimuli, e.g. light, temperature, chasing.

The control of aggregating and dispersing of pigment granules is caused by changes in the chromatophores ionic charge. A change of charge within the cell causes a change in color. There are two ways to change the ionic equilibrium within chromatophores, hormonal and neural. Both "paths" are often employed, one working more gradually, the other more immediately. For example, the time required to change from light to dark varies immensely.

There is good evidence that melanophore control by advanced bony fishes is principally actuated by the autonomic nervous system.

There are two principal chemicals that are produced and release by neurons (neurohormones) that affect color.
Epinephrine (Adrenalin): A nerve-activated hormone that's released by an organism when it is excited or scared, causing pigments to contract and the animal to blanch, lose color.

Acetylcholine: A chemical that is active in muscle tissue, movement, almost always causing melanin to disperse, darkening the organism.

Morphological color changes are due to amounts of pigment present in the chromatophores of an organism. Morphological changes occur very slowly, generally over the course of a month or more, and are usually permanent.


"Types of chromatophore are characterized by the color they carry. Erythrophores contain reddish pigments found in carotenoids and pteridines. Melanophores contain black and brown pigments called melanin. Xanthophores produce yellow pigments in the form of carotenoids. Fish are capable of producing some pigments, but others must be supplied in the diet. For example, they cannot produce carotenoids naturally. They accumulate carotenoids from their diet and transfer them into pigment cells to produce red, yellow, and orange colors. The intensity of the pigment is reliant on the quantity and types of carotenoids supplied in their food. The carotenoid pigment found in most marine invertebrates is astaxanthin. Another pigment that is derived from a food source is phycocyanin. This pigment is blue and is readily found in blue-green algae. Additionally, the ability of fish to store pigments they have acquired from their diet will greatly affect their appearance.

Various hues are made possible by the combinations of different layers of chromatophores. Cells carrying more than one pigment are called compound chromatophores. Most fish that appear to have green coloration on their scales actually have a layer with yellow pigment and another layer on top that scatters light and reflects a blue color. There are other types of chromatophores that do not retain pigments . "

Last edited by ewest; 07/01/20 10:16 AM.















Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #523140 07/01/20 03:29 PM
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RTM, sorry to get off thread, but CNBG are amazing fish. I'm sure partial to them.

Staying with Bob Waldrop sure ain't a bad thing. He has quality fish, and is well respected in the hatchery community.


AL
Re: New 22 acre lake
RTM #523149 07/02/20 05:15 AM
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Bob Lusk wisely had my place stocked with three kinds of panfish: CNBG, BG, and RES. The redears for snail control, and he wanted to see whether CNBG or BG were best adapted to my pond. Turns out the CNBG are dominant, though we do catch a few BG as well. Probably the same is true of FLMB and NLMB, stock both and see what does better.

Last edited by anthropic; 07/02/20 05:18 AM.

8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 113





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