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I'm shocked, shocked!
#521259 05/19/20 10:05 PM
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Electro survey today turned up a few things I knew, but also stuff I didn't.

HSB are doing great, some over 5 lb. RES, BG, CNBG also doing well in all sizes, up to past 10 inches. Didn't see any rainbow trout or threadfin shad, but they may be too deep now that water has gotten really warm.

Shocking part was just how destructive the heron has been. Probably ten percent plus of bass were injured by the Beak of Death. I'm gonna have to insist the bird finds another home.

Largemouth were somewhat underweight, especially those less than 15 inches. This surprised me, given how well their forage is doing. But my fertilization efforts, while successful in getting a good bloom, also encouraged weed & algae growth. Apparently it has become so thick in some spots that bass have a hard time reaching the BG, so are undernourished despite strong BG populations. Guess I'll need to treat some spots. Most of my plants are American Pondweed, a plus when not too thick. Maybe I should add grass carp as well.

Considering how hard I worked to get pond weeds in the first place, this is ironic. There's no denying that a pond is balanced only temporarily as it swings between one imbalance and another!

Last edited by anthropic; 05/20/20 01:34 AM.

8ac E Tx, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 107




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Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521281 05/20/20 09:21 AM
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Good report. One many should read and consider as they think about management choices. Change is the only constant in ponds. The more you know and experience the better the chances of getting ahead of possible issues.
















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Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521319 05/20/20 08:45 PM
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I'm nearing the end of my tether re LMB. Stocked aggressive Northern strain and supposedly elite Lone Star Legacy Florida strain. Fed and fed for years, in rough terrain & rougher weather. Fertilized, ag limed. Placed both natural and artificial structure for fish. When little BG reproduction, had pond plants installed to give shelter for their YOY. Stocked FHM to feed little bass, TFS to feed medium sized, BG, RES, CNBG for all sizes. Culled over 200 LMB one year (though only 80 so far this year) Stocked small forage sized rainbow trout. Stocked TP almost every year. Even had a forage pond built for CNBG reproduction which were placed in main BOW.

And yet while every other fish at my place has done great, from hybrid stripers to tilapia, to trout, to panfish, the one constant is the failure to achieve good relative weight lunker bass. Hasn't happened, and I fear it never will. Every time I have a survey, no matter what I've done, the same results come back.

Maybe I should stock some alligator gar. Sigh.

Last edited by anthropic; 05/20/20 08:56 PM.

8ac E Tx, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 107




Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521636 05/26/20 09:12 AM
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I wonder if the HSB are competing for forage with the LMB? How did the survey look for LMB numbers? I'm seeing wounds on a number of bass as well. We have several blue herons working the lake.

Last edited by RossC; 05/26/20 09:13 AM.

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Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521638 05/26/20 09:18 AM
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What is - " … achieve good relative weight lunker bass" ?

Tell us about the electroshock surveys ? They only sample a very small % and often miss large LMB.

I understand the frustration !!!
















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Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521668 05/26/20 05:22 PM
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This post brings to mind a question I asked here years ago.

I have managed a number of ponds I owned. Gone through the same scenario the OP has. Stock fish. Get weeds - kill weeds - no weeds - cull bass - feed like crazy - and on and on. My ponds have produced some decent bass and good fishing - but the cost and effort is huge.

Now for the confusing news ........ I have hunted in South Texas for 20 years on some great ranches. On most of these ranches there are stock ponds that totally, absolutely NEVER managed. No treatments, no stocking of fish, etc. Just simply left alone for years.

I have caught some of the biggest bass in my life out of these ranch ponds - caught a legit 10 lb bass out of a 1.5 acre stock pond. In said pond we have also caught multiple 6-7 pound bass. Had this happen on several different ranches.

So I guess the moral is this - South Texas not only grows huge deer but also huge bass - makes no sense

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Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
tim k #521670 05/26/20 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tim k
This post brings to mind a question I asked here years ago.

I have managed a number of ponds I owned. Gone through the same scenario the OP has. Stock fish. Get weeds - kill weeds - no weeds - cull bass - feed like crazy - and on and on. My ponds have produced some decent bass and good fishing - but the cost and effort is huge.

Now for the confusing news ........ I have hunted in South Texas for 20 years on some great ranches. On most of these ranches there are stock ponds that totally, absolutely NEVER managed. No treatments, no stocking of fish, etc. Just simply left alone for years.

I have caught some of the biggest bass in my life out of these ranch ponds - caught a legit 10 lb bass out of a 1.5 acre stock pond. In said pond we have also caught multiple 6-7 pound bass. Had this happen on several different ranches.

So I guess the moral is this - South Texas not only grows huge deer but also huge bass - makes no sense

Excellent observation, Tim. I guess a partial answer is that maybe if the south Texas ponds get little pressure, even the big bass are naive and relatively susceptible to lure fishing. They get wise a lot faster where the the pressure is greater.

I remember a Midwestern study of small lakes which had just been just opened for fishing. Catch rates were insane the first day, but declined rapidly thereafter.

Last edited by anthropic; 05/26/20 06:40 PM.

8ac E Tx, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 107




Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521674 05/26/20 07:14 PM
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Bob Lusk and I have discussed this a couple of times over the years. If I remember correctly he thought the make up of the ponds in south texas were naturally full of a more robust environment - water down there has more plankton and food producing options than most other areas. All I know is STex has incredible native bass with little management efforts -

Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
ewest #521683 05/26/20 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ewest
What is - " … achieve good relative weight lunker bass" ?

Tell us about the electroshock surveys ? They only sample a very small % and often miss large LMB.

I understand the frustration !!!

Got report. RW 93.6%, not bad overall. Lots of small fish, few bigguns, but that could well be due to the fact that the big mommas have spawned and gone deeper, out of reach of electro. Under 16-17 inches, Fish were mostly underweight.

HSB in excellent condition, 102% RW. RES, CNBG doing very well, too.

Last edited by anthropic; 05/26/20 09:10 PM.

8ac E Tx, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 107




Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521715 05/27/20 08:44 AM
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Did you consider removing some of those underweight lmb through the shock boat while doing survey? To me it seem that the lmb really do well in your pond when it comes to reproduction. At my pond it seems like the hsb help to control the lmb numbers by feeding on them when they are yoy. Maybe, as your hsb grow to the larger sized fish (8lbs +) they will help you to control lmb fry. An 8 lb or over can eat a pretty nice sized meal.

Last edited by TGW1; 05/27/20 08:47 AM.

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521717 05/27/20 09:44 AM
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sorry did not mean to hijack your thread!

Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
tim k #521718 05/27/20 10:32 AM
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No problem tim


8ac E Tx, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 107




Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
TGW1 #521719 05/27/20 10:36 AM
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Tracy they do reproduce a little too well. We took out 32 but need to harvest more.


8ac E Tx, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 107




Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521722 05/27/20 11:30 AM
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I can tell you this for sure! Your HSB if they are 4 pounds up they are for sure competing with your LMB for BG. I have the same problem. I can catch my HSB fairly quick with a 3 inch BG under a bobber so they may start out feed trained but if you do not continue to feed them large amounts of fish food they will eat your BG no doubt about it. I believe this is another reason why all my bass over 20 inches are having RW problems. I am currently keeping any HSB I catch to somewhat help this issue. Thanks for the good info Anthropic I too am getting tired of trying to have that awesome 6./7/8 pound bass and am starting to think now I will be happy with catching ones up to about 4 pounds and having more fun with it!! LOL


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
RC51 #521727 05/27/20 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RC51
I can tell you this for sure! Your HSB if they are 4 pounds up they are for sure competing with your LMB for BG. I have the same problem. I can catch my HSB fairly quick with a 3 inch BG under a bobber so they may start out feed trained but if you do not continue to feed them large amounts of fish food they will eat your BG no doubt about it. I believe this is another reason why all my bass over 20 inches are having RW problems. I am currently keeping any HSB I catch to somewhat help this issue. Thanks for the good info Anthropic I too am getting tired of trying to have that awesome 6./7/8 pound bass and am starting to think now I will be happy with catching ones up to about 4 pounds and having more fun with it!! LOL

I agree with you RC. The good news is that those HSB are also helping you grow 2 + lb BG.

Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
RC51 #521760 05/28/20 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by RC51
I can tell you this for sure! Your HSB if they are 4 pounds up they are for sure competing with your LMB for BG. I have the same problem. I can catch my HSB fairly quick with a 3 inch BG under a bobber so they may start out feed trained but if you do not continue to feed them large amounts of fish food they will eat your BG no doubt about it. I believe this is another reason why all my bass over 20 inches are having RW problems. I am currently keeping any HSB I catch to somewhat help this issue. Thanks for the good info Anthropic I too am getting tired of trying to have that awesome 6./7/8 pound bass and am starting to think now I will be happy with catching ones up to about 4 pounds and having more fun with it!! LOL

Good point, RC. I stocked 70 HSB two years ago, probably 40 or 50 still alive, very minimal harvest. They go absolutely nuts at the feeders, but I'm sure enjoy BG snacks as well. My buddy caught a 5 plus HSB this evening, which I matched with a similar size LMB. One of those times when the stars aligned so that big fish were landed on light tackle.

Harvested six more LMB this evening. Several giant CNBG caught & released, hard fights on light tackle. Finally decided to drain CNBG packed forage pond into main BOW, as it was unusually cool weather. Hopefully this will help LMB growth a bit.

Bushy pondweed is becoming an issue, as it did last year. Died back last summer when it got scorching hot, hopefully will do the same this year. I'd like to spot treat it without doing much damage to Am Pondweed, if possible.

Last edited by anthropic; 05/28/20 01:04 AM.

8ac E Tx, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 107




Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521770 05/28/20 07:31 AM
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Same here with the plants. Trying to save my AmPondweed and spot treat the bushy pondweed. I will be picking up 5 more grass carp from Todd Overton this sat along with some Aquathol super. And I will finally be picking up my Tp order. I have been monitoring my RW's on the lmb, not every lmb caught, sometimes I just look at the lmb and I know pretty quick if were good or not. If anything, I see the small lmb under 15" are at 100% but I would prefer they be in the 120% so I've asked that the smaller fish are removed when fishing. As far as the Hsb, they are feeder hogs but if you slip in a 4" fish bait, unweighted, circle hook and a clear plastic bobber, it won't take long before you are hooked up. So, I'm pretty sure that if any small lmb get close to the hsb they lmb won't live very long. Frank, have you seen your hsb move through an area on the lake thrashing the water like a wall of them moving through? Anything in their area that will fit into their mouth will get eaten. Schooling feeding is something to see.

Last edited by TGW1; 05/28/20 07:35 AM.

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Tracy
Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521777 05/28/20 07:52 AM
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Remove fish in the group that has low RW. I would bet that there are some large LMB in the pond. Might try a night electro shock survey next time.
















Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
TGW1 #521825 05/28/20 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TGW1
Same here with the plants. Trying to save my AmPondweed and spot treat the bushy pondweed. I will be picking up 5 more grass carp from Todd Overton this sat along with some Aquathol super. And I will finally be picking up my Tp order. I have been monitoring my RW's on the lmb, not every lmb caught, sometimes I just look at the lmb and I know pretty quick if were good or not. If anything, I see the small lmb under 15" are at 100% but I would prefer they be in the 120% so I've asked that the smaller fish are removed when fishing. As far as the Hsb, they are feeder hogs but if you slip in a 4" fish bait, unweighted, circle hook and a clear plastic bobber, it won't take long before you are hooked up. So, I'm pretty sure that if any small lmb get close to the hsb they lmb won't live very long. Frank, have you seen your hsb move through an area on the lake thrashing the water like a wall of them moving through? Anything in their area that will fit into their mouth will get eaten. Schooling feeding is something to see.

Haven't seen the schooling feeding, Tracy. However, I have observed large fish chasing and blowing up multiple smaller fish close to the feeders. I'll bet they are mostly HSB. Even if I sacrifice some LMB relative weight, I like HSB. They likely do better surviving cormorant attacks, too.

Is Aquathol super a herbicide? Ethan from Overton's recommended Reward to trim back on Am Pondweed & bushy pondweed. He also recommended grass carp, but wasn't sure they'd have any available.


8ac E Tx, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 107




Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521942 05/31/20 07:47 AM
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Frank, Overtons had grass carp yesterday. I picked up an additional 5 for a total of 15 now in the pond. The number that Todd recommended to me last fall, but I'm a little slow learner! The grass carp were nice sized large enough to most likely not be eaten by the larger lmb or hsb. But I will say there are a few lmb in the pond that could fit most anything in their mouth. Ever herd the term "Bucket Mouth"? I'm guessing GCP around 14" in size. I also picked up some Aquathol Super and I am pretty sure Todd has one more bag of it this morning at his place. It is a contact killer. But he did warn me about the warm water and killing fish when using herbicide this time of year.


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521944 05/31/20 07:51 AM
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anthropic - Reward is a contact herbicide. I prefer it over copper based products.

From Aqua Plant

Reward is a liquid diquat formulation that has been effective on pondweeds and is very effective if mixed with a copper compound. It is a contact herbicide. Contact herbicides act quickly and kill all plants cells that they contact.

Cutrine Plus, K-Tea, Captain, and Clearigate are all chelated or compound copper herbicides and can be used in a mixture with Reward or Aquathol K. Other chelated or compound copper formulations are available but are not linked to this web site.

Aquathol K, and Aquathol Super K are dipotassium salts of endothall and comes in both liquid and granular formulations. These endothall products have been effective on pondweeds and can be mixed with copper compounds for additional effectiveness. Contact herbicides act quickly and kill all plants cells that they contact.

Last edited by ewest; 05/31/20 07:56 AM.















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Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521950 05/31/20 08:18 AM
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Eric, i just picked up a bag of the Aquathol S yesterday, not cheap product but i understand it works pretty well on the bushy pondweed. i will have to be very careful till i learn what I can do with it. Too darn much money and time put into the fish just to kill them off from oxygen depletion treating for bushy pondweed.

Last edited by TGW1; 05/31/20 08:20 AM.

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
TGW1 #521972 06/01/20 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TGW1
Eric, i just picked up a bag of the Aquathol S yesterday, not cheap product but i understand it works pretty well on the bushy pondweed. i will have to be very careful till i learn what I can do with it. Too darn much money and time put into the fish just to kill them off from oxygen depletion treating for bushy pondweed.

Tracy, do you have aeration? That might lessen the O2 risk.


8ac E Tx, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 107




Re: I'm shocked, shocked!
anthropic #521974 06/01/20 05:41 AM
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Frank, after talking with Todd it is best to treat the pond next spring in the early growing season so for now just going to spot treatment, like around the pier. And just slowly learn how to on a much larger area next spring. I think I will add some type of food dye to the mix so that I might be able to see how it spreads in the water as i spray under the waters surface.

Last edited by TGW1; 06/01/20 05:56 AM.

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy

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