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Thanks Jpsdad!


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Chad I think PK could make it [aside from your DO issues] - we have no issues in NE and our water gets just as cold as yours, our season is just shorter. One variable might be your pond being devoid of macrophytes for longer periods so they may be more vulnerable to predation than they are here - but I don't think the cold itself would impact their survival. I think scuds could also be great in your pond. Dr Dave Willis told me once that Devil's Lake is supported entirely by scuds - no smelt, shad, alewife or other forage fish present. That really blew my mind considering the quantity and size of the YP, SMB, WE, NP etc. that exist in that fishery - but you know, Dr. Willis was a great teacher and related lots of those cool facts to us.

So...I think it would be worth trying both scuds and PK Shrimp. If you drive through NE this year let me know a few weeks in advance and I'll do my damnedest to collect some for you on your way out West.


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ty1174 #520171 04/30/20 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ty1174
Originally Posted by teehjaeh57
Considering they're translucent it requires collection efforts to verify presence - I have the best luck once water temps reach 70s in shallow vegetation.

Are they spawned out at that time?

I believe they continue rolling while temps are in 70s...so Spring/early Summer and then again in early Fall


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Originally Posted by canyoncreek
jpsdad,
Thanks for the background info. I didn't mean anyone was going to start a business or make money. I was thinking that like so many other things on this forum, our 'family' would have enough to help each other. Even if each had one forage pond full, having a way to harvest them to share with others (beyond wading and netting) would really help all of us help each other. This is where putting our combined experience and innovation together may help. Since you are right, it won't be a money maker and probalby will never be a commercial interest of anyone, then that usually pulls down the barriers for sharing. There is no trade secret and no lost fortunes at stake. I would think if someone was really good at it they might be able to sell some to their local bait shop but outside of that it probably would remain local and on a small scale.

The Fattig family who used to sell to members of this forum kept their collection method private. I can understand this, to protect their income. But now it seems that all sources have dried up. It would help all of us if a little of the knowledge about how to culture or how to capture was not 'patented'. I also think many retirees have a little time on their hands and a trackhoe in their barn, it might be fun to dig a hole, try to plant some eelgrass and then ask the forum for what water condtions, hardness, pH, calcium, etc is best for supporting PK shrimp? They might also learn how to encourage breeding and then they could experiment with different types of methods of collecting. Perhaps see if a circulating pump and filter would make collection less labor intensive? How about nutrient attractants? Put the females all in one area? Experiment with zones of higher or lower temperature within the pond, or with artificial light of different wavelengths.

I know in my pond there was a specific event that made all the PK shrimp come out of hiding and be easy to spot in the shallows for a day or two. I believe they all were reacting to a specific nerve irritant at the same time. If I could reproduce the conditions and not 'irritate' them enough to kill them, it might be a way to collect larger quantities. Unfortunately, I can't grow enough vegetation to support them in my pond. Time for a forage pond smile

Jeff - collection was pretty simple: They owned several hatchery ponds and simply pulled the seine around the edges. I think their PK pond had gams [they sold these also] and that was it. Hard work, sometimes they had to break ice to make November deliveries, but Nebraskans don't mind. I've broken ice to seine...don't miss those times.


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teehjaeh57 #520175 04/30/20 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by teehjaeh57
Chad I think PK could make it [aside from your DO issues] - we have no issues in NE and our water gets just as cold as yours, our season is just shorter. One variable might be your pond being devoid of macrophytes for longer periods so they may be more vulnerable to predation than they are here - but I don't think the cold itself would impact their survival. I think scuds could also be great in your pond. Dr Dave Willis told me once that Devil's Lake is supported entirely by scuds - no smelt, shad, alewife or other forage fish present. That really blew my mind considering the quantity and size of the YP, SMB, WE, NP etc. that exist in that fishery - but you know, Dr. Willis was a great teacher and related lots of those cool facts to us.

So...I think it would be worth trying both scuds and PK Shrimp. If you drive through NE this year let me know a few weeks in advance and I'll do my damnedest to collect some for you on your way out West.

Scuds are pretty much ubiquitous in high mountain lakes and streams. I would be very surprised if his lake didn't have them.

It still remains unclear to me whether PK shrimp would thrive there. The growing season is shorter and the water temps don't get as high. The conditions favor scuds and that is why I think they are already there. The introduction of PK shrimp in this biome constitutes an experiment that isn't founded on the best reasons.

Many good intentions have played out through the past with many, many examples of unintended consequences. There seems to be two outcomes with most introductions of species in non-native habitats. Either the introduction falls flat on its face and fails in which case the hypothesis driving the introduction is falsified. Or the introduction succeeds beyond all expectations and consequences develop that are not desired nor beneficial to the community of organisms ... in which case the hypothesis is falsified. There are few cases, if any, where the full cascading outcome was foreseeable and predictable (although perhaps failure to thrive may have been predictable in some cases).

There is a curiosity that I most certainly have about this experiment. I would like to know its outcome and I have nothing to lose in watching it play out. For all the reasons I have mentioned, I wouldn't recommend it but its a choice that ultimately falls on the owner.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


teehjaeh57 #520180 04/30/20 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by teehjaeh57
Chad I think PK could make it [aside from your DO issues] - we have no issues in NE and our water gets just as cold as yours, our season is just shorter. One variable might be your pond being devoid of macrophytes for longer periods so they may be more vulnerable to predation than they are here - but I don't think the cold itself would impact their survival. I think scuds could also be great in your pond. Dr Dave Willis told me once that Devil's Lake is supported entirely by scuds - no smelt, shad, alewife or other forage fish present. That really blew my mind considering the quantity and size of the YP, SMB, WE, NP etc. that exist in that fishery - but you know, Dr. Willis was a great teacher and related lots of those cool facts to us.

So...I think it would be worth trying both scuds and PK Shrimp. If you drive through NE this year let me know a few weeks in advance and I'll do my damnedest to collect some for you on your way out West.

TJ thanks so much!! I just might take you up on that offer!!

How well do PK Shrimp survive with crayfish?

We actually have more scuds in our lake than I've personally ever seen anywhere else. They have always been there so I think they are basically impervious to low DO. I imagine the PK Shrimp would be a big bonus for growing bigger fish because the scuds are just so small. I am assuming PK Shrimp have the same basic nutritional content of the scuds just more of it??

Jpsdad - I am a gambling man!!

This video doesn't do our scud population justice. You have to open it to full screen to really see them. I need to get a better video this summer.

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 04/30/20 10:55 AM.

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wbuffetjr #520181 04/30/20 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by wbuffetjr
We actually have more scuds in our lake than I've personally ever seen anywhere else .... I imagine the PK Shrimp would be a big bonus for growing bigger fish because the scuds are just so small.

In most cases of species introduction into non-native habitats the anticipated benefit has always been exaggerated and never quite meeting the original expectations. It is very easy to be deluded into thinking that some outcome will definitely occur with no consequences. Generally, these deductions are supported by facts but the problem with the facts is that they pertain to a separate ecosystem with its own variables. This risk you face is that the outcome is just the opposite of what you expect. PK shrimp are omnivorous and will prey on scud young. The scuds are small, but abundant, and easy to see for any trout. It will all depend on whether the trout are able to consume enough of PK shrimp to make a difference for the trout.

In Alabama, treatments of Gambusia significantly outperformed PK shrimp in terms of BG production. A number of factors contributed to this but what is remarkable is that Gambusia never achieve high standing weights like PK shrimp demonstrated they could in those trials. There was much food available to the BG in the PK shrimp treatments so it is worth asking why the PK shrimp didn't help the BG to gain more?


Quote
Jpsdad - I am a gambling man!!

OK. It's your choice. Probably won't be a big risk from a local ecology perspective ... although I have no facts to support that proposition. Just keep in mind that it isn't just your asset that may be affected. It is possible for the project to fail in your lake but for progeny to flourish downstream where they are unwanted.

Last edited by jpsdad; 04/30/20 09:08 AM.

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Chad those scuds are so cool...I'd love to get some of those rolling in a recruitment cell sometime and let em loose in the ponds.

Aaron Matos grows the largest, most beautiful BG I've ever seen using a combination of high quality feed, Gams, FHM, Scuds and PK shrimp and extremely high water quality pumping benthic pond water up through a wetland to process nutrients then oxygenate through a waterfall back into the pond. I might try to get some gams going in my trophy lepomis fishery this Summer.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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With those huge BG, how does Aaron Matos keep his PK shrimp supply going?

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I was gonna order some scuds from habitatnow.com ,but they want 214.00 just for shipping from MN to KS.


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John, there are some others supplying these at a bit lower cost.. I'll find them and re-post.

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Here ya go.. double culture is 2000, 120$ shipped.

https://goliadfarms.com/shop/gammarus-scuds/

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To be clear, and I'm sure you know, scuds are different than grass shrimp.
I have purchased scuds from goliad and from another supplier (I believe Kyle at Habitat Now but memory is poor). They both were 'scuds' by advertising but I got very different looking critters (size and shape).

Without proper water quality and habitat they may not survive. I tried stocking on a few occasions but none survived. I have no refuge for them as my vegetation is gone (blame the goldfish, the crayfish, or both)

I did try this fall to release a small number of PK shrimp into some areas where I have mats of sedge that fall over and float over the shallows and capture mats of FA. That is the best refuge I have and hoping they will survive and reproduce. Seems like slim chance though. We'll see over time.

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where did you buy the PK from?


Im going to ask a lot of questions, but only because I'm clueless


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Thanks snipe, the ones from habitatnow contain like 20-40,000 , but around 350 shipped is steep. Did the ones from Goliad take in your pond? I have plenty of weeds, dead weeds, leaves and muck in my pond here in Kansas.


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Yeah, there are a couple of firms selling scuds in the gallon range but usually sell out about mid november. This is a big ticket item for attracting ducks..the waterfowlers snatch them up pretty quick.

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Originally Posted by Snipe
Yeah, there are a couple of firms selling scuds in the gallon range but usually sell out about mid november. This is a big ticket item for attracting ducks..the waterfowlers snatch them up pretty quick.

Could you point us to the firms that sell scuds by the gallon?


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Prairie Land Management.. PLM.

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