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Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
#515187 12/21/19 10:56 PM
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This thread is for those wishing to follow my experiment in raising Cyprinella lutrensis, aka Red shiner, for an alternative forage base in a static pond situation.
I've started with about 300 fish of 1.75-2.5" with a dozen in my 60 gal aquarium for observation through the winter and the rest in my 2800sq ft forage pond, newly built late fall.
I also have Spotfin shiner and Bluntnose minnow, both in my aquarium and small numbers in my forage pond.
CD Disc structures are being built for the pond for crevice type spawning substrate for the SFS, and typical pallet structures are planned for use with some rock piles for BNM.
Information and reports to follow.


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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515189 12/22/19 08:12 AM
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snipe this is great! Can't wait to see how each does, but it makes it even better you have them all together to see how each species preform. It would be really great if they each find their own niche and can complement each other it a pond.

Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515199 12/22/19 11:41 AM
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I'm along for the ride. Can you post some pics on this thread please.


The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515201 12/22/19 04:08 PM
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Bill Cody is going to move some things over from another thread and we will continue on this thread and yes, I do have some pics to share.

Last edited by Snipe; 12/22/19 04:09 PM.

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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515202 12/22/19 10:31 PM
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This is the start of posts about using red shiner as a forage fish in ponds. This topic began in a thread titled - Spottail Shiner In Ponds in this link
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=515184&page=1

Bill Cody - Does your state have red shiners? They are same genus (Cyprinella) as spotfins and likely will spawn in similar habitats. Literature says they are tolerant of numerous conditions and tolerate suspended silt. Spawning is variable and not quite as specific as most of the other Cyprinella species. Pond spawning should be possible since they reportedly scatter eggs over similar areas as GSH and also in crevices. Sometimes one has to make a road trip to an area known for the species to probably do some self collecting. Sometimes you might be able contact local bait shops where the species occurs and buy some of them from the bait shop.

Some of the distribution maps show red shiners extending up into south central North Dakota. One may have to take a long weekend vacation to a place that sells red shiners as bait fish.
http://ninnescahlife.wichita.edu/node/367
Generally the numbers of eggs that hatch and survive to mature adults is strongly dependent on the amount of competition of the same species and predators. In a fish empty pond, several to a few dozen healthy reproducing adults can quickly populate a one acre pond with thousands of individuals. This assumes the adults minnow specie is "normally" prolific as far as true minnows are concerned in the minnow family - Cyprinidae. My experience is - survival of fry is highly dependent on amount of competition present. I've raised in one season, thousands of spotfins from a 'handful' of spotfin adults in an 0.3 ac pond with no other species present except 40-50 bluntnose (BNM).

Snipe - Thanks for bringing this up, Bill!
For those reading this Bill is helping me with an experiment of my own with Red & Spotfin shiner and bluntnose minnow.
After a "fair" amount of research I've found that all 3 of these species are available but it's mostly dealers for the aquarium hobbyist and they are EXPENSIVE.
BUT...If one has a forage pond of any sort, I believe-from what I can find- the red shiner will play just fine with spotfin and bluntnose.
My research on SPOT TAIL shiner suggest they will not "prosper" in a closed system or small pond. They seem to have very similar traits to that of emerald shiner. That does not mean they won't reproduce but my findings suggest with predators present they won't last long, so I chose the 3 species listed above to go with my GSH FHM and Gams I have present in pond. I'm starting cultures of all 3 with hopes of getting reproduction in the new forage pond. I've placed several pairs in my 60 gal aquarium and hope to observe some behavior patterns at the least. My red shiner males have started to color up as my timed light passed through roughly 11 hrs 30 min. I'm increasing 5 min of light every 3rd day to 'mimic" photo period. I am able to determine females in all 3 species now and with the Red shiner, the Males were obvious first.
Should be fun if nothing else!
Snipe - ewest, here's one of my "Cody shiner discs".


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Quote:
What kept the BNMs from similarly proliferating and then out competing the spotfins?

saint_a these two species have different a niche thus direct competition is not real significant. Thus for me, both reproduced almost equally to put the pond at carrying capacity; almost a poly- culture thing.
snipe pull out our spawning device and measure the distance between the disks. They look too far apart. You want spacing to be 3-4-5mm (about 1/8"-3/16" no bigger) Your spacing looks to be 1/4" or more. Too wide of spacing and you will get few if any eggs. Spotfins are fussy. I suggest for your aquarium project add a couple more disks at the narrow spacing and see which spacing the shiner prefer. Let them educate you!
REMINDER - To those reading this thread; spottail shiner and spotfin shiner are two completely and entirely different species with very different spawning habits. Don't confuse them.

Canyoncreek - snipe,
When I made my stacks of old CDs I bought the smallest diameter of all thread rod that they kept at the hardware (looking online it was 1/4" course thread. I used a 1/4" course thread nut that matches to hold the stack of disks at top and bottom.
In between the CDs I used I believe 2 thin washers stacked to try to achieve that 1/8" spacing. The washers have to be big enough to not fit through the hole in the middle of the CD and you also need some pressure from the nuts top and bottom to compress things so the CDs stay rigid. I can't recall for sure but probably got 1/4" washers (meaning inside diameter of the hole was just right to fit over the all thread and the outside diameter was 5/8".
Online it says those washers are usually 1.5 to 2mm thick, which means I'm pretty sure I used 2 of these stacked between each CD.
I made the all thread rod about 3' long with the CD stack right at the top. I found it easy to push these into the bottom of my pond and pull them back out again in the fall. I pulled them out to power wash them every fall as they silt in pretty easily and it is also fun to see how many sticky egg remnants are on the CDs or in between them.
I found that how far the CD 'tower' is off the bottom and simultaneously how far it is under the surface mattered a bit too. Mine were bottom mounted, most people hange them off the edge of a dock. Not sure which is best.

I used some plastic cardboard stacks too thinking that the natural holes on the endgrain of the cardboard would be perfect for the shiners but when powerwashing I saw very little use of these stacks. I wonder if part of it might be that they were square pieces rather than curved pieces and also the cardboard flexes so the gap between the layers of cardboard changes alot, which is unlike natural crevices which don't give or open and close with time.

An old post somewhere suggests using the plastic ring that is left behind when you screw off the plastic cap of a gatorade bottle, water bottle, or plastic gallon milk jug cap as a spacer. A good idea!

Snipe - I put them at "exactly" 3/16" per your instructions..I can sure tighten them a hair to 1/8". In fact there are some eggs already on the back side, they're using it as of this am, but it's the spotfins and not the RSH as I expected.
I should back up... the Red shiner use technics similar to GSH but will also lay eggs in BG/GSF/RES nests too and I've found some literature that suggests they will (at times) also spawn in crevices.
I used 2 washers between on this one, I have 3 disc structures in tank but this is the only 1 so far with eggs and as you can see it's closer to bottom than the other 2.

Canyoncreek - how far in do the eggs go in between the disks would you say? I'm always curious how they 'shoot' the eggs way in the crevice or if in a deep crevice like you have between your disks if the eggs stay right at the opening?

Snipe - 1/4-1/2"???
I see there are some (very small group) right on the edge now that weren't there this am.
Learning/schooling is in full session today..
Been raising temp 1/2-1 deg per day from 69 (room temp) to 75 today. Light on 12hr 43 min today via timer.
Spotfin really took off today, aggressively guarding disc area. It (Male?) chases anything off that gets within 6-8".. busts up the Reds and the bluntnose-get out is clear.
Bluntnose are being observed cleaning underside of disc area until the male spotfin pops them. Bluntnose are spawning on the 45 deg upline of several big rocks I have in the tank and are also aggressive but looks like the spotfin started their regime first around 72 degs. Red shiner are colored but no behavior changes noted.
I have noted Red shiner can eat a very large chunk of pellet-and they eat a LOT. Red shiner also LOVE algae wafers! Spotfin will peck at that a bit but I have not seen BN doing much around the algae wafers.
I had also stated above that eggs appeared to be 1/4-1/2" inside rim of disc, however, it is very clear now the mass of eggs is way less than 1/4" from edge. I'd say 1/8-1/16" is where most of eggs are.
This is cool to watch but I can also tell spotfin seem to be very territorial and a disc structure is guarded by 1 male-as far as I can tell. I kept my eyes on a male for nearly 2.5hrs and he never left that area and runs everything off but females(assumption) because he circles them and they pull up to disc, swing sideways and underside is directly against disc when egg/s are expelled-very low number. Maybe 1-3 eggs per visit but it's really hard to see them, only accumulation after several hours.

teehjaeh57 - This is new science for us - very valuable - these species could fill the forage niche for limited gape, cool water species fisheries. Since this is my specialty I'm intrigued. Thank you for performing these experiments for the benefit of us all and the scientific community - you could publish a paper on this subject.

- Interesting to hear the RS are taking to algae aggressively, this is a benefit.

- SFS appear to be the dominant species - are they larger than anything else in the tank, or is it just their nature? Maybe it's just because they are guarding eggs, and aren't truly more aggressive than RS?

- How do RS spawn? Like GSH - in vegetation, or are they cavity spawners, like RS? Hoping they won't compete in a fishery over spawning areas but can coexist and both species proliferate.

- Are BNM spawning habits like FHM - underside of surfaces? From your observations it appears so.

I'm hopeful your tank research data suggests these 3 species can successfully coexist - would be a big win for us all.

Snipe -TJ, It seems the SFS are very aggressive and eagerly attack BNM when they get near the disc structure, but I can't yet determine the stage either species is specifically in. The BNM may get super aggressive as well as they get deeper into spawn mode.
The RS are spawners in both Macrophyte type growth and Literature says they will utilize sunfish nests as well, so similar in some aspects to GSH, but I haven't seen any patterns developing there, yet.
I can see with some of the fish I have, there is a niche for the sizes they can attain very quickly when considering SFS- Not as large or quite as deep bodied as GSH but I have some 3.5-4". The BNM are showing growth as well and are roughly 2.5-3.75" but shaped very similar to fathead.
The RS seldom exceed 3", maybe 3.25 (I read) but mine are 2.5-2.75" and are shaped more similar to the reference family-Carp.
The RS are also occupying the upper part of the water column here, they really don't interact with the other species in the tank until you chuck some crushed pellets or flake food in, then they aggressively chow down regardless of others present. They hang in the upper 6" or so where the other 2 species seem to prefer the lower 10" of the tank, mostly near the very bottom. Tank is only 22" deep so just a tank observation.

Bill Cody - Red shiners belong to the genus Cyprinella which contains exclusively all the crevice spawning shiner species. Although a few authors have reported red shiners to spawn in other areas or habitats of steams, even open water (see below).

Red shiners (C. lutrensis) are non-guarders, brood hiders and speleophils (crevice spawners) (Simon, 1999; Hassan-Williams and Bonner, 2012). The male establishes his territory around a crevice and makes display passes along the spawning site. Occasionally males will swim toward females directing them towards the crevice. Males will approach and circle females, flicking their fins forward every few seconds. Courtship can last several hours, with females revisiting the spawning site over 200 times prior to egg release. During spawning the male swims above the female passing directly over the horizontal crevice. The female contorts violently expelling the eggs into the crevice. The first expulsion may be followed by another pass and expulsion. Females produce sounds to attract the males (Delco, 1960).

Eggs may then be deposited in a variety of environments; within crevices over a range of different substrates (gravel, sand, mud), near the surface over beds of submerged aquatic plants, in clear ponds or in association with green sunfish (Lepomis cyanellus) and orangespotted sunfish (L. humilis) nests (Minckley, 1959; Cross, 1967; Minckley, 1972; Pflieger, 1975; Wang, 1986; TPWD, 2012). Spawning may also occur in midwater as the male and female swim through the water column (Minckley, 1972).

Females may release up to 16 batches of eggs per day, with up to 71 eggs per batch. An average clutch size may equal around 585 eggs and males and females may spawn 5-19 clutches over the reproductive season (Gale, 1986). Laser and Carlander (1971) reported that 485-684 eggs were laid per gravid female.

All the above from Advanced Reading:
https://www.cabi.org/isc/datasheet/86206

I commonly see spotfin eggs 1"-1.2" interior of the outer edge or perimeter of the spawning disks. However these are eggs deposited by large 3.5"-4.5" adults.

Note - it takes quite a bit of effort to extract (copy and paste) an active topic and place it in its own or new topic. It would be much easier and quicker to just change the title of this thread to include spotfins, red shiner.

Snipe - Appreciate you posting this Bill.
Maybe it's size and age that's keeping the Red shiner away from any spawning activity.. or possibly the fact they are in a tank. Aquarium hobbyist report success with this species in aquarium confinement.
I have 3.5 months of winter left to observe.
It appears obvious the BNM and SFS will do fine with proper spawning substrate. We'll see how the RS do in the forage pond.

jpsdad - There are red shiner in a drainage ditch near my house. My son and I have collected some to fish with and to also put in his aquarium. His aquarium had two small bullheads (now bigger than anything else), 3 goldfish, a pleco, and eight Gams. We put 2 red shiners in the tank which I think were both female with no bright red fins. From bait catches I noticed that males with breeding color were less common.

From the get go in the aquarium, the red shiner were very robust swimmers and very skittish around our movements. They out competed every other fish in the tank at feedings and displayed aggressive behavior towards Gams and to a lesser extent the goldfish. Their harassment of Gams was so great that we decided to return them to the ditch.

In the water of the ditch they are very robust swimmers and difficult to catch with a hand net. Of course, this only heightened my son's interest in catching them.

Snipe, I am following your observations and hope you continue posting on the results if not in this thread one of your own making. We can delete posts ... so ... each could move his own to the new thread via a repost.

Snipe - jpsdad, I have not found any data or pictures that show "red" fins on the red shiner, maybe a local trait?
I think they started running out of colors and names, ie, Red shiner aka Rainbow dace, Redfin shiner and redhorse shiner. Some of this-to me-has been like being asked to identify which of 2 6" LMB is a FLMB..:-)) jpsdad, I guess I should say the KS guide I'm referencing does not show the red fins.. I do see some descriptions showing true "red" fins on these, just not in my tank.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/22/19 10:40 PM.

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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515203 12/22/19 10:49 PM
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Here is some more general information about red shiners (Cyprinella lutrensis)
NOTE Numerous areas of the United States consider the red shiner as an invasive specie that when added or introduced to wild fish communities, where the red shiner does not exist, can cause disruptions to the native fish species by crowding or out-competing the native minnow species. It is not a good idea to introduce red shiner to a fish pond that connects in any way directly to a stream.


Invasive species website. See the list in this link if red shiner is reported in your state waters.
https://www.cabi.org/isc/datasheet/86206

USGS Description and picture
https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=518

http://www.fishpondinfo.com/shiner.htm
Red shiners usually breed over sunfish nests and vegetation even though the sunfish will eat them. Males guard the sunfish nest area. They may fan away the gravel in a spot. Eggs may also be put in the crevices of rock piles, logs, etc. The parents release eggs and sperm over the area where they fall to the ground and stick. Females can lay up to 400 to 600 eggs. In a tank, red shiners may spawn in a dish of gravel. While they sort of stash eggs, they do not give them any care after laying them and will eat them.
The breeding males are a silvery blue with dark red stomachs and sometimes a green stripe across their bodies. Their fins turn red, and they have a blue triangular patch behind their heads. The males also get breeding tubercles on their mouth and head. Breeding males may have a black tip on their dorsal fins. Breeding females are fatter and less colorful.

Breeding info from NANFA
http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php/topic/17597-how-to-breed-red-shiners-in-an-aquarium/

Spawning video from YouTube. I think early in the video both of those fish are males then a drab color female appears where they are likely spawning above gravel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmz2deZHn5M

Great pictures and here Red Shiners(Cyprinella lutrensis) are called Rainbow Dace.
https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2016/09/22/friday-photospread-flash-falloff-on-rainbow-dace/

Alberta Canada concern of Red Shiner with good red fin pictures
https://abinvasives.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/FS-Red-Shiner.pdf

Topic from England
https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/red-shiner-cyprinella-lutrensis/

Intense color from Germany
https://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/fish-archives/cyprinella_lutrensis_notropis_lutrensis__en/



Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/22/19 10:58 PM.

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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515204 12/22/19 10:54 PM
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Bill C., I know this was not "easy" to edit and do what you have here so THANK YOU for the trouble!


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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515207 12/23/19 11:55 AM
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Thank you to both of you. How are they doing? What day did you start this?


The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515208 12/23/19 12:17 PM
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It's been close to a month ago now.
It took some time to gather all 3 species and after present in tank I've tried to mimic photo period with lights on timer and slowly raising temp. There have been several noted changes, number 1 being the RS coloring up, but no noted spawning activities "observed" from RS. SFS and BNM are both spawning but nothing I can see yet from RS.


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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515212 12/23/19 01:33 PM
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Something I might add to Bill's comment about invasive species and what states label as such, I had to PROVE to the dealers I bought from, that these 3 species were native and not introduced in Kansas.
I bought from 5 dealers and again, not cheap but 3 of the 5 required proof of native and not introduced along with invasive status.


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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515223 12/23/19 10:44 PM
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Snipe you sourced the red shiners locally, but you bought the bnm and the sfs from 5 different dealers?

Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515229 12/24/19 01:37 AM
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I trapped some Reds and bought some. Until we find a source for good numbers, plan on $5-$7 each for any of the 3. I'm not sure why it is what it is but I was met with opposition on the red shiner-heavily.
I think most of that is because these people fear unintended introductions will occur.


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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515243 12/24/19 02:08 PM
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Fish can probably get out a pond as easily as they can get introduced into a pond. Many ways this can happen.


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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515262 12/25/19 11:10 AM
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All the things that make red shiner an invasive species speak to its potential as a forage species within its native range. Where the red shiner is not native, it is typical that other closely related native species can play a similar role as forage. Examples are species like blacktail shiner, spotfins, and satinfins.

It is great to learn that vendors of aquarium specimens are being careful to restrict sales to regions where they are native. I would just add this. It's each pond owner's personal responsibility to ensure his fish and forage are suitable for his regions native fauna. Our water flows downstream and our fish swim both directions in high water. What we do in our ponds impacts our neighbors and local biodiversity.

Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
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I 2nd 'japsdad' thoughtful commentary above. Snipe's experiment is advancing our knowledge about these red shiners as a viable forage fish for specific pond applications. Diversity of forage is paramont importance for growing high quality sport fish.


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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515278 12/26/19 11:00 AM
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Snipe, with regard to the mating behavior of RS ... The Spawned eggs do not receive parental care and so males do not defend a nest. I read something fascinating about blacktails. One reference described the mating ritual as the female calling the males from the spawning location to announce her readiness to spawn. The author also stated that blacktail males could also distinguish their own females from RS female vocalizations. (In Texas blacktails and RS co-inhabit some streams). So I do not know if the RS mating ritual is essentially the same or not.

On a different line of thought ... Would the absence of parental care of eggs give the RS a reproductive advantage over the other two subjects in the pond with predators? I don't know but I do anticipate that you will find the RS introduction will succeed best where the freedom from nest care may be an advantage in a pond with predator fish. Gams and PKS also exhibit this freedom and have high rates of reproduction.

Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
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I've read they are very vocal during the spawning ritual, and who knows, they may well communicate at other times as well.
The only change noted at this time is that the males started to color up. They remain colored, and I've set for many hours at different periods watching, looking for some sort of change in behavior. I can't say that anything has changed yet. I expected to maybe see 1-3 grouping and swimming together but haven't seen any such behavior yet.
The females "look" like they are ready to blow up, just haven't noted any change yet.
I have high hopes for the RS.. I've ran across the same quote several times from a gent that says he raised some of these as a kid and determined that due to his "lack of care" with these, he felt they were nearly "indestructible".. I think that is a trait desired in a strong forage species.
13:46 on light today with a 76 dge temp and stable.


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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515788 01/17/20 03:19 AM
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14:20 on light period and still holding 76 degs.
I wish I had great things to report but something has changed that has caused the spotfin to cease spawning activity in the last 2 weeks and this am I found 3 dead.
checked water quality and nothing has changed that I can attribute the loss to. Ammonia non existent, O2 good, no Nitrate changes, etc..
All 3 spotfin were large (89-92mm) so I don't know.
I do have fry-have no clue what species because I have bluntnose actively guarding a few places under rocks and obviously had eggs from spotfins.
I did note some activity from the red shiners swimming tightly together then darting off to other end of tank although I never could see any eggs expelled during these maneuvers.
What fry I could net I've transferred to a smaller tank with planktonic growth and a bit of brine shrimp every couple of days or so If I'm lucky enough to get them to hatch-been pretty inconsistent there-also using optimal powdered starter.
I'm suspecting there has been some fry consumed rather quickly upon hatching as I've only collected "maybe" 100.
As much as I hate to admit it, I think 3-5 fish of each species would be best in a tank of their own. As they've grown in size I feel like the number of fish I have are too many and are possibly causing stress to each other. Time will tell.


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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #515796 01/17/20 09:57 AM
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Spotfin shiners, same as humans and especially FHM, have predictable relatively short life spans. If other fish are doing well in the tank, I suspect the stress of spawning weakened SFS and they died more or less of natural causes. Rarely is this actually witnessed in ponds with smaller dying adult forage fish. As old fish weaken, predators make very easy meals of these weak fish. No doubt in my mind that a lot of predators survive mostly by targeting and eating weak individuals. This I think is very true when you add small stocker fish to an existing pond. A very high percentage of these new fish quickly become fish food and are never to be seen again. What happened to all those fish that I added??? Natures way.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/17/20 10:03 AM.

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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #516079 01/24/20 04:36 PM
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Snipe,

I think you've done very well to have collected 100 fry. I can tell you that I have never been able to raise any young Gambusia in my tank due to predation by the other fish. I did try to use an excluder and within hours of putting a pregnant female in the excluder there were a couple dozen fry expelled. They were still laden with yolks and probably those that were already swimming met their end by swimming out of the excluder. I hadn't expected fry being expelled that were in yolk stage ... perhaps the mother Gam was stressed ... just not sure.

I think I agree that it would be beneficial to single the species out and reduce the number for best results.

With regard to mortality, I recall reading that mortality is highly linked to spawning activity for red shiner (even BG). It's like after they pass on their genes they simply slip away and make room for the new generation. Some obviously live longer but there seems to be correlation between spawning and end of life.

Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #517029 02/19/20 01:43 AM
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I thought I would add a note here as to another unplanned part of this experiment. I discovered this evening that Red shiner will NOT tolerate ammonia levels as well as spotfin or bluntnose.
I happened to be watching a few of the reds because I kept hearing a surface spatter of some sort. I first thought the Reds were engaging in their normal spawning circles when it dawned on me they were showing a convulsive type behavior. shortly after this, 4-5 were belly-up. I quickly moved these to another tank and before I returned (30' away) a few more were exhibiting similar behavior. Some even appeared dead-within minutes. I moved all of these into tank number 3. I done a quick ammonia check and it was higher than expected with the measures I have in place so I drained 25-30%, started ammo rock pump #2 and treated tap water and refilled. In the 25-30 minutes it took to change out water all Reds in tank 3 were upright and acting normal again. No abnormal behavior noted from any of the spotfin or bluntnose. I think another 5-10 minutes and the reds would have been dead had I not heard the activity and went to observe.

Cody Note - Great information - glad you posted it. This information will be valuable to someone. Maybe NH4 tolerance could be added to the title and delete 'for alternative' or just add NH4 tolerance?

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/19/20 02:15 PM.

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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #523483 07/10/20 06:36 PM
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Been awhile since posting anything but I do have some updates to add..
First, I have scads of fry in my forage pond and I'm not sure what they are!!! :-))
I have 2 very different fry types so I believe one to be bluntnose (biggest about 3/4") and the other has to be either spotfin or Red shiner?? After several hours of watching standing perfectly still I've seen several thousand fry in different stages with most being about 1/2" on down. I'll report when I can verify ID.
On a second note, I found a source of adult Red shiner less than 3 hrs from me. A fellow fisheries manager has been seining some waterways and sent me a pic of a single fish asking me what the heck is was and to my surprise it's the most perfect example of a male Red shiner.


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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #523487 07/10/20 07:33 PM
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At 1" long you should be able to tell the difference between bluntnose and shiner. I can help with a good picture of them in a small plastic bag with water and fish.


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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Snipe #523887 07/23/20 12:13 AM
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Just a reference I found that I wanted to archive in this thread...

Marsh-Matthews et al. (2011) examined recruitment and survivorship of Red Shiners 'introduced' to native communities in mesocosm experiments, and found that predation by piscivorous fishes (e.g., centrarchids) can limit the ability of Red Shiner to establish itself within a community.

Proof they are desired and eaten, a question that has come up in my research.

Last edited by Snipe; 07/23/20 12:14 AM.

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Re: Red Shiner experiment for alternative forage
Bill Cody #523888 07/23/20 12:16 AM
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Bill, I've got fish at 1"+, I just need to catch and get pics. Thanks for the help.


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