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OK so this is a bit off topic ... For BG, there is a floating theory hanging around that a harvest weight needs to exceed 1 lb. Now I am just talking what is described as their "marketable weight". All I can say is that it is quite unfortunate that such impressions prevail for the typical consumer. This weight is quite impractical to make BG a truly commercial fish. I prefer to release BG this weight and keep 5 to 7 in bluegill. I know a lot folks will find it difficult to wrap around their minds but is truly is a matter of perception and I guess in part one's history and roots. Every BOW needs predators like gehajake and jpsdad IMHO. ![smile smile](/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) There is so much food, recreation, and enjoyment out there utterly rotting on the vine and in many cases doing this eating, recreating, and enjoying is just exactly what those waters need to improve the quality and size of the fish residing within them. I like your theory, there needs to be a certain amount of harvesting to keep a pond healthy and well managed, and that amount is higher then a lot of people realize imo, I have a neighbor that has several ponds and will let people fish but would almost rather you didnt keep hardly any, the result is an overstocked pond where you can catch 20 little stunted bass an hr with only a minimal chance of catching anything with any size, same way with the Crappy. The long term effect of over fishing and removal of too many adult fish I find is usually short-lived, if any effect at all, Ive actually not seen it happen in private water, some public waters I may have seen it.
All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
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. . . there needs to be a certain amount of harvesting to keep a pond healthy and well managed, and that amount is higher then a lot of people realize imo, I have a neighbor that has several ponds and will let people fish but would almost rather you didn't keep hardly any, the result is an overstocked pond where you can catch 20 little stunted bass an hr with only a minimal chance of catching anything with any size, same way with the Crappy. Anyone who allows fishing to neighbors who ask is just awesome. I do agree, however, that they are missing an opportunity for receiving good help in the management of their BOWs. Your first post in the thread included an offer to harvest crappie for a fee. In the case where a BOW owner is reluctant to harvest himself ... its arguably worth something to him both in time and money. The idea of a catch and release farm pond ultimately leads to a BOW like you describe above. The long term effect of over fishing and removal of too many adult fish I find is usually short-lived, if any effect at all, Ive actually not seen it happen in private water, some public waters I may have seen it. When a BOW is successfully managed for true trophy LMB, the effect of taking the larger LMB outside a sound management plan can have a devastating effect for the BOW owner's quality of fishing. BOWs that are unsuccessfully managed for trophy fish benefit greatly from harvest. Typically, these harvests are not intensive enough to make them trophy BOWs but it does make them better providing a better mix of opportunities.
Last edited by jpsdad; 03/12/24 04:33 PM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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Information is the best remedy. Read here all you can on crappie - archives is full of threads. The more you know the better chance you can meet your goals.
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Think we have too many predators at the moment and not enough recruitment of BCP if that is possible. I think it is possible and this may explain, at least in part, why the numbers are not as good as they once were. I don't think crappie are more prolific than BG. I don't see how they could be. They have to be fairly large, larger than BG, to reproduce (typically > 8in TL). I would think that BG inhibit reproduction of Crappie in much the same way that BG inhibit reproduction of LMB. With only one spawn each year, its hard to argue that they could out-produce BG in terms of numbers of recruits or biomass. If the number of crappie is greatly restricted by predation, one would expect, however, that the crappie would achieve large sizes as is often the case also with BG. If they don't, then there must be competition for food from other species that is limiting growth.
Last edited by jpsdad; 10/02/19 08:30 PM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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Think we have too many predators at the moment and not enough recruitment of BCP if that is possible. I think it is possible and this may explain, at least in part, why the numbers are not as good as they once were. I don't think crappie are more prolific than BG. I don't see how they could be. They have to be fairly large, larger than BG, to reproduce (typically > 8in TL). I would think that BG inhibit reproduction of Crappie in much the same way that BG inhibit reproduction of LMB. With only one spawn each year, its hard to argue that they could out-produce BG in terms of numbers of recruits or biomass. If the number of crappie is greatly restricted by predation, one would expect, however, that the crappie would achieve large sizes as is often the case also with BG. If they don't, then there must be competition for food from other species that is limiting growth. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Crappy quite a bit more finicky about reproducing then BG, they only spawn once and usually earlier in the year, which in my area means the water temperatures and levels can fluctuate more in that time of year which will throw them off of spawning at all some years?
All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
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I don't think crappie are more prolific than BG. I don't see how they could be. They have to be fairly large, larger than BG, to reproduce (typically > 8in TL). I would think that BG inhibit reproduction of Crappie in much the same way that BG inhibit reproduction of LMB. With only one spawn each year, its hard to argue that they could out-produce BG in terms of numbers of recruits or biomass.
If the number of crappie is greatly restricted by predation, one would expect, however, that the crappie would achieve large sizes as is often the case also with BG. If they don't, then there must be competition for food from other species that is limiting growth. Hard to believe but Crappie can be on average 2 to 3 times more prolific than BG (based on egg production). See below BC- Va Tech Reproductive Habits: Mature by age 2 Spawning occurs around April at 15-20C Nests dug out around vegetation close to other nests Fecundity is 11,000-188,000 eggs per female WC- FishBase USA - Ohio River – Max fecundity 147,800 max BG fecundity is around 50,000. That is one of the reasons crappie tend to have boom and bust reproductive cycles.
Last edited by ewest; 10/03/19 10:50 AM.
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Eric When you figure in how many times a year BG spawn compared to BCP and the shear numbers of BG and the hit or miss spawning of BCP then you have what appears to have happened at my BOW, smaller and smaller numbers of crappie. As far as I can tell I have had 1 successfull BCP spawn in 5 years . The size is getting a little better each year but the LMB have pulled off a spawn every year and are skinny. The BCP are not skinny just not growing fast as I wound like.
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I don't understand how crappie would have bust cycles because of being highly fecund. Won't argue for or against it but like to have that thought expanded sufficiently to understand what led you to draw that conclusion. I do qualify prolific in terms of biomass/acre and number of individuals recruited per/acre. Granted, these numbers would depend on when the census is taken, but I think the first anniversary would be a very good milestone to compare. Buck and Thoits studied a number of species in monoculture. Crappie were unable to attain standing weights comparable to BG in the same ponds. Removed BG outweighed the standing crops attained by Crappie. BG were in the many tens of thousands in quantity at the end of the census. Crappie standing weights were comparable to LMB (though lower) and the numbers much higher (less cannibalism). In any event, BG were not limited to lesser recruitment though they may well have produced fewer eggs per individual. **BUMP** OK, so the first line I wrote above is rather structurally challenged and I apologize for any confusion when I wrote this below. I don't understand how crappie would have bust cycles because of being highly fecund. What I mean is this: I don't understand how being highly fecund could be a cause of bust cycles. This attribute should help crappie pull off spawns and yet they often fail. I was asking for clarification as to how this attribute could contribute to busted spawns.
Last edited by jpsdad; 10/04/19 06:57 AM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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Well Phil every year when the crappie move in shallow and the males color up, the weather warms then turns cold and windy driving them to deeper water.. this happens over and over till I guess they give up and absorb the eggs. I only catch 8-9” crappie, never have seen any smaller ones or caught them. Not saying they didn’t spawn but I can’t see any recruitment at all. LMB every spring there are tons of YOY.....
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.... LMB every spring there are tons of YOY..... Hey Pat, Did you ever stock LMB or are these all from that original unsolicited bucket stock?
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Hey Bill Never stocked the first one. They range in size from 2” to double digit (caught a double digit female this spring)
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Pat, I think that explanation has merit though I still wonder why when LMB are subjected to similar conditions (they spawn at roughly the same temps) they are able to make a crop of YOY.
With regard to Buck and Thoits seeing more crappie than LMB, keep in mind that these tests were single species tests. In the crappie tests ... there were no LMB ... and vice versa. The more species the more complex the picture becomes and the harder it is to clearly understand. I wonder if 50 or so healthy overwintered adult crappie per acre will almost always successfully spawn when they have the place pretty much to themselves. Say, with no bluegill and say with 20 2 lb. single sex LMB or 20 2 lb HSB to the acre. But when they have to defend nests against BG, I could see them failing almost all the time. Also some authors reference 8" as the minimum reproductive length. If this is so, a pond full of stunted crappie may not attempt a spawn.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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Phil I think bass spawn 2-3weeks later don’t they?
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Pat, I am just not certain. But I do know that is isn't a specific temperature but a range of temperatures that are acceptable for spawning. Spawning will peak at a warmer temperature than the onset and by the time the crappie spawn peaks the LMB will be spawning to. Here is link to the Google search "crappie spawning temperature" Here is link to the google search "largemouth bass spawning temperature" You will notice in surfing these links that there is variability in what people think is the range of temperatures but they are also very similar in terms of the range and expected peaks of spawning for both species. One reference state the LMB peak is between 64F and 68F. Another reference states that the Crappie peak is 68F to 72F which is just the opposite of what I thought (like you that Crappie peak before). To be sure, I really don't know. This much I do know,both LMB and Crappie are adapted to spawn earlier than other species in order to exploit the prey fry that follow their own fry emergence. Their spawning temperature ranges are also very similar.
Last edited by jpsdad; 10/04/19 04:04 PM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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I'm not sure that temp is the only consideration. How about hours of light? Hours of light is directly related to date of the year. For example, what if the water temperature is too warm by the date the minimum required number of hours of light are available. Just thinking out loud....
Last edited by Bill D.; 10/05/19 06:20 AM. Reason: clarification
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As a BOW owner that desires crappy this is definitely an interesting an informative thread, Thanks Guys! I have also been of the opinion that BC spawn earlier in the season then LMB. but that may be due to the fact that when the BC start gathering in the brush to spawn I tend to forget all about LMB. Oh well,, if that was the worst habit I had I would be proud.
All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
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Ge There are a few of us hiding in plain view that really like those speckled critters for whatever reason. I am really enjoying this thread also. I think they are an interesting specie and hopefully get the lowdown on them
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I used to catch a lot of BCP off brush pile in front of pier in 7-‘ water . I have a TH feeder set up that throws in that area. The the CNBG hang around under floating pier waiting for the feeder to throw. Now there are so many lg BG that crappie are not there anymore. Question do the BG dominate to the point that they run the BCP out of the area?
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You know Pat, that just might be the case. But I think if there were BCP larger than the CNBG they might just stand their ground.
That brush pile is a preferred habitat for the BCP and so its not a good thing for the BCP if they are denied it by the CNBG.
Last edited by jpsdad; 10/06/19 09:43 PM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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Phil why can’t they all just get along lol. Got plenty of cedars so probably should put a bunch more in different areas away from the feeder. Got such a bloom going on that it’s hard to catch much of anything 12-18” viz. need some rain to dilute I think The BG and BCP are about the same size....
Last edited by Pat Williamson; 10/07/19 05:33 AM.
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Caught a mess of BC over the weekend, found them more out in open water and pretty deep, had to slow down the lure a good bit and let it get about 8-10' deep to get a bite. seems there are certain times that they pretty much stay out in open water more, not even around brush. fwiw
All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
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I wouldn't give up on that brush tho, at the right time they will be right back in it, especially in the spawn, I don't think the BG will have any effect on them leaving but I could be wrong, I tell you what I have found is a sunken brush pile by accident, way down deep, 10' or better, and pull some monsters off of it in hot weather, they don't like hot water, they will go deep to stay cooler, and if you can find a brush pile or structure at the correct depth I will almost guarantee you some slab crappy hanging out. I think thats why, other then the tastiness, that makes them fun to catch, because when they aren't spawning and protecting the nest, they can be tricky to catch, or get them to bite. Imo they require more finesse then a LMB to catch most of the time, of course there's always the times when they are spawning or pre spawn, or when they are over populated when you can catch one with every cast.
All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
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As a teenager, I turkey hunted every year with my Dad, uncle, and cousin. My cousin leased some cattle land (for cattle) in Major County. The 220 acre parcel had no ponds but there was a well and very large circular water trough. My cousin put 3 crappie in it and a bluegill. The remarkable thing about the crappie was that they, each and every one of them, sat almost motionless with their noses pointing directly toward the drain pipe just like spokes on a wagon wheel. It was the oddest thing I have ever seen. The BG was swimming around like it was hunting. Now this timed about just before the crappie typically spawn in OK and so maybe they were attracted to the pipe because of the spawning impulse as gehajake mentioned. I think first the crappie will want to be at whatever depth they prefer, and second they will more focalized to structure they can find at that depth when they rest. When they hunt, they will go where the food is.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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Maybe a cp is like a lmb and will hang near anything that looks like cover. The drain was different from the rest of the pool, so it was cover. an lmb will hang near a painted line on the side of a pool, or a coin laying on the bottom of a pool. maybe cp do the same.
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