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Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511679 09/17/19 02:17 PM
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The DO levels still leave me wanting more. Removing craws seems to have jumped my clarity from 12" to 23" and I will be extending my aeration run times from 3am to 8am gradually further into the daytime hours to get more run time and maybe more DO. My main concern is turning the blooms under and killing them off (is that really happening)...Which is better, more aeration run time or leaving the bloom alone to do it's thing. I am second guessing the importance of aeration at this time. It seems that the DO is weak from top to bottom with the aeration running, but improves quite a bit in the upper water column without air running. If I feed during low DO (in the morning), there is little to no interest, but feeding in the evening when upper column DO levels are increased, feeding is much better (still not a frenzy by no means)...I'm cornfused on what can be done at this point! I should have the air running a full 10 hours compared to the current 5 by this weekend to see what that shows on the DO meter.

Latest readings:

I caught 25 crawdads overnight Friday night and returned them like last week. The water clarity has leveled out around 22-24 inches.

Saturday's readings (Aeration has been running 3am to 8am)...

Time - 8am in BOLD , 1pm in RED, 6 pm in GREEN

Ambient Temps - 69 F, 78 F, 86 F

Secchi Disk Reading - 23", 23", 23"

Water temps - Top to Bottom 75 F, Bottom 75 F - Top 83 F, Bottom 75 F - Top 82

DO - 4 ppm from surface down to 2', 5.9 ppm @ surface, 5.0 ppm - 12" down, 3.9 ppm - 24" down, 6.5 ppm @ surface, 4.9 ppm - 12" down. 4.0 ppm - 24" down

TDS - 47 ppm, 51 ppm, 51 ppm all taken at 12" deep.

pH - 7.0 @ surface, 6.8 - 12" down, 6.6 - 24" down, 7.1 @ surface, 6.7 - 12" down, 6.4 - 24" down, 7.3 @ surface, 7.0 - 12" down, 6.8 - 24" down

Ammonia, Nitrates, & Phosphates - all zeros throughout the day

HSB feeding has been strong all week which is a new thing as of a few weeks prior. HBG feeding has also been good, consistent with previous weeks/months. My fish do not go nuts at feeding time, they just peck away a little at a time. I have been throwing out a total of a 1/4 pound of food over the course of an hour. I throw a little, they eat it slowly, then throw more and so on. I'm pretty sure they would eat more, but I get bored and quit. I have upped my feeding amounts and frequency since learning that the pond was NOT very fertile with no evidence of problems.


Fish on!,
Noel
Re: DO and pH change in the upper 2 feet
Joey Quarry #511691 09/17/19 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Joey Quarry
No, I wouldn't say that is, "Normal". DO levels will drop by about 10% every three feet due to hydrostatic pressure, but your drop is way more, not to mention your pH.

From what I know about your BOW, I would guess your contrasting pH and DO levels are the result of muddy water. All your photosynthesis is happening within the first foot of water, since there is no sunlight past that point. The plants are using the carbon dioxide, which acts like carbonic acid in water. CO2 removal reduces the acidity of the water so pH increases. Decomposition at the bottom of your water has the opposite effect and is decreasing pH and lowering DO.

I would "think" more aeration but I would like to see more tests prior to suggesting anything.


This still seems accurate to what is going on in your pond. Not sure why you returned the mud bugs? They are called mud bugs for a reason.

I agree your bloom is now generating oxygen at the upper parts of the water column during the day. Also, I think your pond is cycling efficiently at the upper part of the water column. The pond isn't infertile, it is just not overly fertile. Your bottom may have become somewhat anaerobic? If so, I would expect to see similar results for quite some time.

Do you know how much muck you have on the bottom of your pond?


2.5 acres, 87' Deep, Previously a Quarry
Re: DO and pH change in the upper 2 feet
Quarter Acre #511695 09/17/19 04:27 PM
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The "mudbugs" are there as a forage resource and I believe that they will "fade away" in due time. I rarely see any juveniles (they must be getting eaten). I feel that they are like the FHM in that they will help for short period (a few years) and then be mostly gone. I'm just trying to find that line of balance between their forage benefits and clear waters...take out too many and their benefits go away, BUT the water clears up more...water clears up more and FA may get bad...I'm trying to move slowly and only change one thing at a time. Ever changed a bunch of parts on a car and you end up not knowing what actually fixed it?

I'm not sure about the bottom muck...it should be minimal (ponds only 2 year old) and I really don't want to swim out and down to find out.


Fish on!,
Noel
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511715 09/18/19 11:21 AM
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Please tell me you are logging all this data!

I feel the need for charts and graphs coming on...

Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Bocomo #511722 09/18/19 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bocomo
Please tell me you are logging all this data!

I feel the need for charts and graphs coming on...



This thread IS the "Log". It contains all of this summer's test results. And, I have tried to chart and graph some of this stuff...it makes my head spin! LOLLAL (Laugh Out Loud Like A Lunatic)

Feel free to chart and graph at will on your own. If you discover something...I'll send you a free fishing T-shirt for your mental anguish. just kidding...you wouldn't want one of my old fishing T's...they're pretty well used up before they get elevated to just be used for fishing.


Fish on!,
Noel
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511849 09/23/19 11:29 AM
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It sure seems like my pH typically swings upward throughout the whole day rather than following the traditional thought of peaking at mid afternoon. I wonder if night time aeration in conjunction with 12-20" secchi is causing this? The swing seems to be minor and I can't help to think that the blooms are struggling after a night of being turned under and continue throughout the day without a peak of their own. IDK, just speculating.

Just adding this last weekends readings...

Latest readings from Friday & Saturday (air from 9pm to 10am):

Friday evening's DO readings (at dusk) -

6.5 ppm at the surface,
5.2 ppm 1 foot down,
4.3 ppm 2 foot down,
4.1 ppm 3 foot down.

Saturday's readings -

Time - 8am in BOLD , 1pm in RED, 6 pm in GREEN

Ambient Temps - 74 F, 80 F, 77 F

Secchi Disk Reading - 21" all day long.

Water temps - Top to Bottom 76 F, Bottom 76 F - Top 79 F, Bottom 76 F - Top 78

DO - 4.3 ppm from surface down to 3', 6.3 ppm @ surface, 5.5 ppm - 12" down, 4.7 ppm - 24" down, 4.4 ppm - 3' down, 9.6 ppm @ surface, 6.5 ppm - 12" down. 4.5 ppm - 24" down, 3.8 ppm - 3' down

TDS - 52 ppm, 53 ppm, 53 ppm all taken at 12" deep.

pH - 6.9 @ surface, 6.7 - 12" down, 6.6 - 24" down, 6.5 ppm - 3' down, 6.8 @ surface, 6.6 - 12" down, 6.3 - 24" down, 6.4 ppm - 3' down, 7.4 @ surface, 6.7 - 12" down, 6.5 - 24", 6.3 ppm - 3' down

Ammonia, Nitrates, & Phosphates - all zeros throughout the day.

Sunday 6pm DO readings -

Cloudy all day with some rain and light winds.

5.5 ppm at the surface,
4.7 ppm 1 foot down,
4.4 ppm 2 foot down,
3.9 ppm 3 foot down.


Fish on!,
Noel
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511858 09/23/19 12:51 PM
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I think this may help you better understand what I think may be going on in your body of water.

https://appliedecology.cals.ncsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/SRAC-0468.pdf


2.5 acres, 87' Deep, Previously a Quarry
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511860 09/23/19 01:25 PM
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Good Link Joe, I'll copy it to the original post for easy reference. It, now, makes sense that the pH climbs all day at my pond along with the DO even though I'm not sure why the chart below generically shows ponds peaking at mid afternoon. My BOW must have very good alkalinity as my pH swings are relatively flat and the DO from algae blooms increases as long as there is day light...



I am tempted to turn the aeration system off for one night and check DO levels the next day...I think this coming weekend has a purpose. Any guesses as what I can expect? I think the DO at the surface will be higher than mornings when the air has been running, but the deeper DO levels will be less...drats...back to my question...which is better, good DO levels in the upper few feet OR weak DO levels throughout the water column? Am I chasing the meaning of life?

Last edited by Quarter Acre; 09/23/19 01:25 PM.

Fish on!,
Noel
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511862 09/23/19 02:11 PM
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Not sure where the graph came that you posted? I was referencing carbon dioxide acting as carbonic acid, which the article was basically about.

My guess, without the added aeration, you'll see greater stratification of your water. I.e. higher DO and pH at the surface and lower DO and pH at depths. Just a guess, but if correct, it signals an unhealthy pond bottom.

Any harbor in a storm, is the answer. It depends on the DO you think is poor Vs good. Anything less than 5ppm is detrimental to good fish health. In my opinion anything less than 6 will cause stress and is a reason for concern.


2.5 acres, 87' Deep, Previously a Quarry
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511864 09/23/19 03:43 PM
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My morning DO levels are typically between 4 and 5 ppm from the surface down to as far as the meter cord will allow (3 feet). I would bet that those readings are consistent throughout the water column due to aeration.

Evening DO levels tend to be below 4 ppm below 24" deep. Above that 24" mark, they are regularly in the 5 to 6 range. I never see any of the fish in this part of the water column enjoying the extra DO???


Fish on!,
Noel
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511865 09/23/19 04:03 PM
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Do you think fish can cognitively differentiate between 4ppm and 6ppm?


2.5 acres, 87' Deep, Previously a Quarry
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511868 09/23/19 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre
... Am I chasing the meaning of life?


No just the answers to your questions.

Here is a question of my own to anyone who can explain. What is the chemical process by which "low alkalinity water" becomes more basic than "high alkalinity water" in the graph above.

QA, One thing stands out to me in your graph. Your BOW's PH is never alkaline ... its always acidic ... all day all night? I also noticed from a different post you made that your phosphorous is always zero. How is your primary production? Do you get good algal blooms ... just saying ... that if there isn't enough algae ...

If the condition were a fish standing weight greater than the algal biomass can optimally supply with oxygen then you might get at least some of the conditions you are seeing. The fish metabolism would respond to lower levels of oxygen by slowing down. I think I would get the water tested and get some recommendations for water fertility. A PH modifier (like lime) might be front and center on any recommendations made.

Last edited by jpsdad; 09/23/19 09:31 PM.
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Joey Quarry #511880 09/24/19 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: Joey Quarry
Do you think fish can cognitively differentiate between 4ppm and 6ppm?


I don't know the answer to that, but I have heard of fish "piping" at the surface when DO levels get low (how low IDK). At some point they know to head to the surface. A chart in the following Bob Lusk article says that the minimum acceptable DO level is 5 ppm. My pond seems to spend a fair amount of time at or below this point. So far, no piping...I just assumed that the fish would prefer better DO levels and hang out in that upper 2 feet. I never see them there, they are always below the clarity range.

https://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/oxygen.html


Fish on!,
Noel
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
jpsdad #511885 09/24/19 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
QA, One thing stands out to me in your graph. Your BOW's PH is never alkaline ... its always acidic ... all day all night? I also noticed from a different post you made that your phosphorous is always zero. How is your primary production? Do you get good algal blooms ... just saying ... that if there isn't enough algae ...


My artistic touch on that graph is misleading, I am sorry...My pH actually spends time above and below neutral, but only slightly either direction. My intention for the chart was to merely show the peak later in the day. I believe my ph to be in good place.

I may be short on algae, however, since the brown color of the water subsided, after the removal of some craws, it has had a nice green color. And, the pond has had a few heavy blooms, typically early in the summer. So, I feel like the algae is there...but may be struggling with consistency. What I have very little of is submerged plant-life. Here are a couple examples of heavy green blooms...





Here is one before the craws were removed with the muddy waters that existed most of the year (secchi = 12")...



Here is a recent photo that shows the lack of muddy water with it's touch of green (secchi = 22")...



Originally Posted By: jpsdad
If the condition were a fish standing weight greater than the algal biomass can optimally supply with oxygen then you might get at least some of the conditions you are seeing. The fish metabolism would respond to lower levels of oxygen by slowing down. I think I would get the water tested and get some recommendations for water fertility. A PH modifier (like lime) might be front and center on any recommendations made.


I might be low on algae and have too much fish biomass also...pushing my ponds carrying capacity. Wouldn't the ammonia tests show that?

Attached Files
Before Craw Removal.jpg (1.37 MB, 323 downloads)
After Craw Removal.jpg (1.35 MB, 332 downloads)

Fish on!,
Noel
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511907 09/24/19 02:51 PM
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I am not entirely sure what is going on but it appears to be a carbonate or temporary hardness/acid binding issue. When CH decreases, pH increases. If there is free/radical carbon dioxide, CH will increase and pH decreases.

Testing water once for dynamic parameters can be a waste of money. You're taking a snapshot of something that is constantly changing.

A CH/GH issue fits the limited data but the stratification is somewhat befuddling.


2.5 acres, 87' Deep, Previously a Quarry
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511911 09/24/19 03:43 PM
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QA, I must have been grabbing at straws, I guess. That top pic is more than enough bloom IMHO. I just don't understand why the water doesn't reach saturation by late afternoon. With oxygen, there are two perspective to consider, one being the production of oxygen via photosynthesis and to a lesser extent absorption from the water/air interface. The other perspective is the demand for oxygen which will come from your pond life (even your plants at night). It's worth asking the question of whether your standing weight is above the ponds carrying capacity ... though I can't tell you if that is the case.

To be sure they are not the same thing (standing weight and carrying capacity). It is even possible to persistently crop more on an annual basis than the pond can carry. At this point, oxygen isn't so limited (at least in combination with your aeration efforts) as to cause a kill so you have time to evaluate.

Quote:

I might be low on algae and have too much fish biomass also...pushing my ponds carrying capacity. Wouldn't the ammonia tests show that?


I'm not sure ... but to me the bloom seems sufficient to handle fish wastes.

QA, one other thing to consider. The period of late summer through turnover is the natural time of the year where DO is most stressed. Temperatures are high and daylight is rapidly waning during this time. To make matters worse the nights are correspondingly longer. So your BOW is experiencing to some degree what all BOW's are experiencing. Not saying you shouldn't be concerned but just saying you KNOW where your DO is and a lot folks in the same situation are completely oblivious to what is going on in their water.

Last edited by jpsdad; 09/24/19 03:55 PM.
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511913 09/24/19 04:00 PM
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Joey...I assume you mean the "stratification" of DO. DO stratifies in a pond without aeation, right? Mine seems to stratify daily when the air is off. That makes good sense to me, anyhow, and befuddles me too as to why the DO levels are so low either way. My snapshots over the last few months seem to be telling a common story...DO levels in the 4-6 range are common and somewhat predictable...constantly mixed and low throughout the water column after the aeration shuts off and better at the surface 8 hours later.

JP...the top photo is of an extreme event that seems to happen once during the early summer to slightly different degrees the past two years . The last photo shows water conditions of recent which still looks green to me.

I read some about the "standing weight and carrying capacity" as I couldn't tell you the difference.

Thanks to all for participating, I appreciate the thought provoking conversations!


Fish on!,
Noel
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511917 09/24/19 04:32 PM
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I mean, it is a if there is a "Chemocline" to your water? I am always hoping someone on this forum whose discipline is more closely aligned to your issue(s) chimes in smile

I would wager good whiskey your issue is CO2 related but not really, really good whiskey. More like off branded 5 star...

If you ever do consider furthertesting, Alkalinity, CH and GH would be the parameters to test.

Last edited by Joey Quarry; 09/24/19 04:42 PM. Reason: clarification

2.5 acres, 87' Deep, Previously a Quarry
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511920 09/24/19 04:55 PM
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QA,

Carrying capacity is the most limited standing weight the bow can support through the year.

It also apply to other wildlife, eg elk. The mountains can support many more elk in the summer than the wintering grounds can in the winter. The carrying capacity is determine by the wintering habitat.

In the case of a BOW and fish, the limit could be determined by many factors and only one these many factors is DO.

Originally Posted By: QA
I stocked 42 HSB, 500 HBG, & 90 RES.


Neglecting reproduction of HBG and RES an estimate of the original stocker current standing weight can be made.

(1 - Mortality Ratio)* NumStocked* Current Avg Weight = Standing weight

If you have not harvested then it isn't unreasonable to assume less than 30% mortality. Let's be conservative and assume its 30%.

.70 * 42 * 1.6# = 47.04 lbs HSB
.70* 500*.5# = 175 lbs HBG
.70 * 90 * .5 = 31.5 lbs RES

Together what survives of your original stockers might easily weigh 253.5 lbs. That's 1014 lbs per acre and that doesn't include HBG and RES offspring.

This much I can tell you, it was feeding that got you to this standing weight. The standing weight of this mix of fish is well beyond the carrying capacity of the pond without feed inputs. In retrospect, I think the DO is consistent with the oxygen demands of this weight of fish and the latest state of the BOWs bloom.

QA, feel free to refuse this advice but I think your reluctance to harvest HBG until they reach 1 lb is a catch 22. I don't think they can reach 1 lb in weight unless you increase your feeding rate and I think if you do that you are risking them all to a fish kill. If it were CC, I would say go for a standing weight of 2000 lbs/acre but HSB and HBG might die if you don't stay right on top of it.

If you remove some of the HBG then they can continue to grow at the same rates of feeding, provided the HSB limit HBG recruits sufficiently. I would be willing to bet a great bottle of scotch that removing around 75 lbs of HBG would make a big difference in your DO immediately and since you already know that the BOW can support 175 lbs of HBG with your current feed rate, those that remain might make it to a 1 lb while maintaining your current feeding regimen.

Last edited by jpsdad; 09/24/19 06:34 PM.
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511925 09/24/19 09:26 PM
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Jp has some pretty solid suppositions, hard to debate mathematical outcomes, especially when I have no clue on carrying capacity. I have a bajillion gallons of water and less than 100 brookies. A fish and crawdad boil could solve all your problems and there really isn't a better time of year to have one.

Less fish, less respiration, less CO2, more dinner. Call me when it's time to eat!

Last edited by Joey Quarry; 09/24/19 09:27 PM.

2.5 acres, 87' Deep, Previously a Quarry
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511937 09/25/19 07:39 AM
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OK, now that's some info I can warp (yes, warp) my head around. Thanks for the mathematical lesson...I'll take that advice and challenge. It all seems to click together...Low DO, lots of fish, muddy waters, low feeding enthusiasm, and the HBG seemed to have topped out size-wise this summer.

I will make some adjustments to the calculations as I believe my HSB average weights are above 1.6#. I went to the pond last night targeting HBG for the fun of catching since I caught the ever-elusive HSB last weekend for check weights AND ended up catching 4 more HSB along with 7 HBG, all in one hour. It was, by far, the best fishing that my pond as produced. Bottom line...the lightest HSB was 2# and the whopper was 2.6# @ 18" long (new pond record). I even caught two HSB in a row! I've never caught two in a day or even a week, maybe a month and I was fishing in the HBG's corner of the pond.

I will concentrate on culling a bunch of HBG and even a few HSB this fall (starting this weekend). I will also try to ladder stock in some HSB soon to keep them populated long term. Does anybody nearby need some 6-7 inch HBG for their pond?

I can't thank you folks enough for your time and attention! Let the good times roll!


Fish on!,
Noel
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #511972 09/25/19 04:00 PM
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Quote:
I will make some adjustments to the calculations as I believe ...


I admired every thing you wrote but was especially gladdened by this above. Your BOW is a great success and something tells me it will never be otherwise. Saw the pics of those HSB that you posted recently. They are remarkably handsome fish.

Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #512003 09/26/19 07:44 AM
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I have started making a cage for collecting the fish that should be functional by Saturday. The water clarity has increased to 25 inches and I am going to renege on my thoughts of turning off the aeration for a night as an experiment on DO levels. I do hope to get some bottom samples this weekend, but I still have not noodled a way to get them without snrub diving (maybe he can come over and drop his glasses in and get some muck while he's down there)...I'll figure something out and post some photos. I'm thinking...extend-a-pole, coffee can, & duct tape should do it???

My calculation adjustments merely moved the total to 236 pounds (this number is standing weight right?). I adjusted the weights of all the fish, some up, some down according to my observations even though the RES are nowhere to be seen. I have ignored any recruitment as I believe it to be minimal. Either way, I would bet that my removed total will be based on fishing success this fall and should that success be better than expected...taking more out can only help the DO levels and improve future growth of the HBG. So here goes!

JPS, Are there rule-of-thumb charts for carrying capacities/standing weights? (I'm still unsure of the difference...standing wt = current pounds per acre? carrying cap = a standing weight at which a fish kill is near given current conditions?).

Thanks for all y'all's time, help, concern, and the compliments on the fish! I contribute my success to God's grace and Pondboss.


Fish on!,
Noel
Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #512015 09/26/19 11:53 AM
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Seems like I read on here about somebody doing bottom sampling by using a capped length of plastic pipe. Put on cap, lower to depth, remove cap, fill pipe, then recap and lift straight up. I would assume you would use a smaller diameter pipe and maybe have a few different lengths.

Re: Water Chemistry Log by QA
Quarter Acre #512025 09/26/19 01:30 PM
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Thanks for the comments. Here in north Texas, I'm still waiting for rain to fill my small pond. frown I have crawfish all over my pasture, so I assume that when the pond does fill up, I'll have a fairly healthy crawfish population. So, that's why I was wondering about the correlation to muddy water. It makes sense. We've had one if not the hottest Septembers on record, so I'm looking forward to October. Thanks again.

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by Augie - 06/02/20 08:38 AM
New algae problem
by Quarter Acre - 06/02/20 07:44 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Fish Habitat or Fish Trap
Fish Habitat or Fish Trap
by Phoenix, May 30
Fawn Pic
Fawn Pic
by bryani289swmi, May 28
Mneagle
Mneagle
by Michael37090, May 17
Thin bass?
Thin bass?
by crimsondave, May 6
Mean Mouth Bass??
Mean Mouth Bass??
by snrub, May 2

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