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The birds , turtles ect will be ok. The LMB will feed on each other and reach equilibrium with most topping out a 10 to 12 inches.
















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Hi,

The trout are over 12 inches, and I don't restock them, since I don't they don't get removed. So, the bass won't be able to eat them for awhile. Just put them there on advice of someone who said they would help the pond be more healthy, because of a fairly major leech problem. There was no fish and therefore nothing to eat the leaches, and it seems like the trout have done an okay job. I am just concerned now that the pond will be imbalanced because of the new bass. In your opinion, will the pond be alright if the bass are left alone and I don't make any changes?

Last edited by Fyfer123; 08/07/19 03:31 PM.

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Hi,

Ok, so you think that the pond will balance itself out? That would be ideal, as it works quite well as it is now. Hopefully, the LMB will not disrupt the already healthy balance. Once the become their full size, will they breed and produce more young? I guess it that happens than the larger bass could eat them and control the population. I am just interested to see if anyone thinks adding any fish will actually help out the pond more than taking away any or leaving it be.

Thanks a lot for your help.


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The trout will eventually age out and die off, and it will be a bass only pond, filled with bass from fry size to 10 - 12 inches. If you are not going to fish it, and just want it for aesthetics, simply do nothing more to the fishery. It won't damage the pond for the larger frogs and turtles. Bass will eat the small frogs, and eat tadpoles if they get hungry.

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The bass in northern climate will develop a stable population (balance) and if left to themselves with none you or others remove there will in one acre, as the pond ages, be approximately 70-85 bass in the 10"-12" size class. The average total number will tend to be dependent on how productive/fertile the pond (ecosystem) is.

Each year they will spawn and then about only those offspring that survive will basically be those that replace the bass that die naturally or be removed by you or predators. If you remove some of the 70-85 bass each year the average size of the remaining bass will tend to become larger with a few maybe 15"-16". The larger bass will eat the smaller bass, fish, frogs, and items too big for the 8"-12" bass.

The more the amount of habitat cover there is the smaller the average size of the bass will become because more cover allows more smaller bass to hide and survive. Generally the fewer bass that are in the pond the larger the remaining bass will be due to each bass gets more food. More food for each one = more growth. Their top end size is basically limited by how much food it gets each year.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/07/19 09:25 PM.

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Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I certainly wouldn't mind fishing it, but I don't want to have a "bass" pond, as I am happy with the way it is now. But if necessary, I can certainly pull a few bass each year.

Thanks for your help.

Last edited by Fyfer123; 08/07/19 09:53 PM.

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Hi,

Thanks for your detailed response. I just have two more questions for you.

1. How long will it take for the bass population to stabilise at 70-85 with 10-12" fish?

2. How many bass should I pull each year if I want them to be bigger?

Thanks a lot for your ongoing help, and I will be sure to keep everyone updated on the progress of the pond.


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1. My guess is less than two years.

2. 25-30# per year after couple years

3. My guess is the bass will hammer the leeches.

Last edited by BrianL; 08/08/19 02:36 PM.

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As a guess I think for the bass to stabilize at adult size the current 2019 LMB crop will have to grow to the 10-11" size so for in an Ontario trout pond it could take 3-4 years. I doubt the 2019 LMB group will be big enough to spawn in 2020 when in June the should be around 5"-6". However if you don't remove the current 3 adults you would get another year crop of baby bass (2020) next May early June. These 2020 bass fry - fingerlings will feed the 2019 bass to get them growing to the 7"-8" size. Then they could spawn in 2021 when some of the 2019 individuals are 9" maybe 8". Expect the 2019 bass to grow to 10" to maybe 12" in 2022. Let's see how far I miss the progress of your fishery.

When the bass get to 10"-12" you can still add trout do diversify your fishery. The supplimentally stocked trout should be a minimum of 7"-8" for good survival to avoid bass predation by 12" bass.

""2. How many bass should I pull each year if I want them to be bigger?"" Assuming that you have 70 bass in one acre, I think to get the remaining bass to grow beyond the 12" you should remove at least 35 and better 45 bass per year or add yellow perch with 25-35 bass ( any size) harvest each year to provide growth & food for the bass. Plus you could harvest some yellow perch for table use.

In my experience with YP in a LMB pond one should remove every bass caught to produce the better quality yellow perch fishery. LMB are intense predators of YP.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/08/19 03:46 PM.

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Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I do hope that the bass eat the leaches, as they have created nothing but trouble for my pond, or from what I can see at least. They seem to attach themselves to the turtles legs, and you can see up to 20 or more on each big snapper. It would be nice if the bass take care of them.


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Hi,

Thanks again for your detailed and helpful response.

If I were to add yellow perch down the road, let's say 2022 when the bass are 10-12", how many would I need to add per year, assuming I was still pulling around 30 bass? And at what size would they need to be? I assume adding perch would take some pressure off of the other potential food, such as the frogs, minnows, etc. That would probably not be a bad thing to ensure the trout and turtles still have enough food, since they are likely eating mostly minnows and insects now. I assume the existing trout (roughly 12-14") could eat some perch as well, so I do like the idea. Let me know what stocking plan you recommend, should I choose to go down that route.

Thanks again.


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Adding YP when LMB are 12" for high percentage of YP survival would require adding YP that are at least 6" and better 7" long. YP are slender bodied so LMB can eat them at about 1/2 the length of the bass. The pond with trout and only natural foods requires a lower biomass so all fish have enough food to grow not just survive. Before you add the YP I would make a good effort to remove as many LMB as possible to 1. provide more available food for new YP & trout and 2. reduce the overall predation pressure in the pond.

When you are ready to add the YP not that many trout may still be alive. Or if you add a few trout per year the pond will not accept nearly as many YP. Me not seeing your pond and not being able to evaluate the natural carrying capacity, I guess a natural trout pond might have around 100 lbs of fish biomass per acre. Then the number of YP to add will be based on how many trout and bass remain before the YP are stocked. To be on the safe side, I would not add any more adult YP (6"-9") than the number of LMB or trout that have been removed in the past 120 days. More YP could be added if the trout are regularly fed pellets.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/08/19 09:09 PM.

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Thanks again, Bill.

I don't plan on adding any more trout, as they seem to pressure the pond as you mentioned and I only added them so there would be some fish to take care of leaches and other minor issues. They just happened to be readily available in my area, and I liked that they wouldn't be able to breed, so I could control their population easily. So I assume by the time the pond is ready for YP, the trout would be all gone. It shouldn't be too tough to get the sizes of YP you mentioned, so, assuming the trout are gone, how many 7" perch would you recommend adding in around 2020?

If you'd like, I can send photos of the pond. Would oxygen be an issue down the road with all the new bass and potentially YP? It is my understanding that LMB require much less dissolved oxygen than trout, and are generally much hardier. Although I do assume trout fair better in cold water. I do have a lot of curly leaf pond weed which is an issue I am trying to control, and I would think the enormous mass of plants would take a fair amount of oxygen as well.

Again, I really appreciate your time and knowledgeable, thorough answers.


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Not to step in on Bill's conversation but Pondweed helps provide O2, not deplete it.. but it does need to be controlled/managed so it's not "out of control" obviously.
I like Bill's idea on the YP.

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Hi,

Interesting, I really would have thought it used oxygen during cellular respiration, but now that I think of it, it makes sense, since all plants do produce oxygen during photosynthesis.

I am working on controlling the weeds with a weed razor and have tried many other methods in the past; they are certainly a very resilient plant!


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Too many weeds/plants can use some O2 use/loss while decaying at years end or something such as leaving the dead removed plants in the water.
The good bacteria will handle a good load of this without a crash under "normal" conditions especially in cooler water.
YP tolerate much lower water quality than many species and can handle lower DO than most but that doesn't mean they prosper in those conditions. Always good to manage water quality when able.

Last edited by Snipe; 08/08/19 11:15 PM.
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Hi,

I would say the water quality is pretty good, since the pond has trout, and they require very good water quality, high dissolved oxygen, low temps, etc. I do use a few treatments that are supposed to increase clarity and remove much, and they seem to work very well. I try to remove as much decaying matter as possible, although it isn't easy with such a deep pond all around (it used to be a quarry).

Do you believe the extra fish that are there now will put pressure on the amount of oxygen, therefore, causing there to be issues with the trout and other animals?

Thanks


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The extra fish should not affect trout survival. High numbers of curly leaf dying in a short period could reduce DO for trout survival. Curly leaf is troublesome to deal with. I fight it constantly. I have resorted to herbicide treatment in fall and or spring.

How many 7" YP to add? Are you buying them or catching them from a lake?


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Hi Bill,

Yes, curly leaf is a real pain to deal with. Herbicides are extremely hard to come by in my area, so I've never tried them.

In terms of the YP, I would purchase them from a local company. They would likely have all sizes available.

Thanks for your help.


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Hi all,

I wanted to give an update on my situation since I have been helped so much by the responses on this post. So here it is...

The bass are growing rapidly. The average ones are 4-5", with the biggest being 6" or a little more. They were maybe 2-3" when I first spotted them a month ago, possibly less. I have been catching them on a mini Trout Magnet. There are more of them than I have ever seen now. It is truly crazy. I can catch one every cast from anywhere in the pond, and if I throw a small spinner, literally 50+ swim after it.

I believe they have eaten all of my minnows, and I'm actually concerned about that. I know that my trout were eating them, so it wouldn't be good if they depleted the population. Is it possible for a bunch of baby bass to do so? I believed so many hatched because there are no other fish in my pond that would bother the nests (the trout are near the bottom of the pond.) Over the past three days, I have put a minnow trap with different baits, dog food, bread, crackers, meat, cheese, +, in different places and haven't caught one minnow. I used to see hundreds schooling along the shores everywhere, now nothing. Should I be concerned about this?

Any suggestions on what to do going forward would be great.

Thanks again to everyone who has helped me with this.


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Thanks for you pond fish update. Interesting situation you have.
If your goal is natural trout production for this pond then yes be concerned, VERY concerned. Those abundant small bass as they grow to the 6"+ sizes will eliminate your minnows - ELIMINATE them. so to keep your trout fed you will have to resort to feeding them pellets. As you know now bass will not enter a trap even one that is baited. I doubt you will ever be able to catch out all those bass before they spawn again. Then it is a repeat of this year. It will be difficult to catch the last few bass out of the pond because the final few will eventually learn to be hook smart - hook shy and not bite anything with a line and hook attached. I have experienced this in several ponds. You have to be a very finesse angler to get the last 2-4 bass out.


You could sustain the trout fishery by regularly feeding them pellets. However if you do not daily go to the pond then pellet feeding trout is more of a hurdle problem.

IMO you will need to decide to renovate the pond OR stock additional fish to create a more balanced predator prey fishery. And if you do nothing else the bass will eventually achieve a weight & number balance to where there are around 30-50 bass per acre and their top end size would be around 10" to 12". The existing adults eat almost all the bass offspring before the next spawn. If you could try and keep the adult bass number down to around 20-25 per ac then they would by themselves grow slightly larger to around 12"-14" max. Their top end size will be based on the amount of food each one gets each year.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/02/19 08:35 PM.

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Hi,

Thanks so much for your detailed response, Bill. It truly is incredible how many changes I have noticed in just a few weeks since noticing the bass.

Do you believe the trout will now have absolutely nothing to eat? I believe the bass have eliminated the minnows already. I haven't seen one in weeks. Pellet feeding is not ideal for me, so I may loose the trout if that is necessary. Should I start to fish them out so they don't go to waste?

I am thinking about stocking YP as you recommended before. How many should I stock and at what size? There is a stockery near me that would be able to sell most sizes I believe. Do you believe the YP will be a good option and can they overpopulate?

Thanks again.


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I'm not Bill by any means but to keep from throwing YP snacks to the bass I would think 2 sizes here. #1, the largest you can afford being 1/4 of what you stock. say (per acre) 35-50 6-8" or slightly larger if available to insure you have females and 75-100 mixed size of say 4-6" to insure you have males so you insure a spawn or best chance of next spring. In your neck of Canada those 4-6" fish could be 2018 hatch but that just goes with the growing seasons there.
If Bill has a different suggestion, please follow his advise, he IS Dr. Perch.

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Originally Posted By: Fyfer123
Hi,

Do you believe the trout will now have absolutely nothing to eat? I believe the bass have eliminated the minnows already. I haven't seen one in weeks. Pellet feeding is not ideal for me, so I may loose the trout if that is necessary. Should I start to fish them out so they don't go to waste?



Fyfer,

The trout have lost an important food source but they may not have lost the primary source of food. If your water supports a large population of scuds, it is likely they are more important to them than the minnows. It's difficult to say just how strong the LMB will become. I think in a worst case, it will be as Bill and Eric described with LMB topping out at 10 to 12" supporting between 70-85/acre of them.

Species interactions are sometimes difficult to predict. In the Summer, the LMB have a clear advantage in shallow, warmer areas of the pond. The young LMB freely go to very shallow water to forage. The reluctance of the Brown trout to do so has always given the minnows a refuge. I can't make any predictions of benefits the LMB might provide to your BOW, but there could be some we haven't yet considered. For example, Leeches readily prey on amphipods and if these are more important to your trout than the leeches are they may be limiting trout food. If the young bass will feed on them, a potential positive outcome could be more amphipod prey for the trout.

The waters of your BOW are cool enough to support trout year round. Trout are cold water fish and they are more active than LMB through winter and they will have a very powerful advantage over LMB at ice out. Overwintering 0-year LMB could offer substantial forage for them during this time. The point I am making is that we don't yet know how this will play out for the brown trout. It might be worth giving the Brown trout a chance show you what they may be capable of withstanding in competition with LMB.

If you add an additional species there will be benefits for the LMB. They will achieve a larger ultimate size but their biomass will not be substantially increased. You will have fewer but larger LMB. An additional species like YP will serve as a predator and competitor of the 0 year class LMB helping to reduce LMB recruitment. The standing weight of LMB and YP will be much greater than LMB can achieve on their own. To be sure, the YP will compete to no small degree with your trout for invertebrate prey organisms.

You cannot likely eradicate the LMB but they may be something you can live with and still keep trout. If you add a prey species for the LMB, the prognosis for the trout could be less certain than with LMB alone. Just some things to think about if you would like to keep trout.


Last edited by jpsdad; 09/03/19 12:27 AM.

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Thanks for this advice. I definitely want to get large ones to ensure their population will grow by them breeding before getting eaten by the 3 big bass or even the babies. They are growing so quickly. I hope that the perch will be able to eat bass fry and even the eggs, so they will keep the population in check while still feeding them as well.


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