Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Muddy water How long does it last (treatment) ?

I have very muddy water. I was wondering and its prolly already been talked about a lot but here goes. If I get the alum. and it gets all cleared up how long does it last? Is it like pond dye and go away when the rain hits. A little background pond is about 10 years old and always muddy. Maybe 6 inches is all you can see at best. I would love to get this cleared up some just don't want to dump money into it for it not to last.

I had muddy water for quite awhile. Things got better for me when pond filled completely, got well-rooted ground cover on banks, and got control of the watershed flow into the pond. I had dry dams built and seeded to slow the ag runoff and keep bare ground to a minimum.

Many other things can cause muddy water, have you done a jar test yet?

I have done zero testing. Mine has been full for 10 years now. Bank is all grass. The run off is just my yard and its all grass as well.

Lime and gypsum helped clear my pond up.

Perform jar test and provide photos. We need to determine if turbidity is caused by ionic imbalance or mechanically. That’s where you start.

Ok my plan is this weekend to start the jar test. What is the best way something like 3 big clear glass jars? Date them and take pictures. Do I put anything in them? Sorry for the questions iv heard of it but havnt really looked into that yet.

What is your clarity/visibility on pond? 12" or less?

I doubt i'v ever been able to see 12" of vis. There is times around the side you can see down a few inches but only really shallow water only.

I doubt turbidity is being caused by phytonplankton/zooplankton blooms - but to be safe, fill two jars, place one in darkness [closet, basement, under a towel, whatever] and leave the other one exposed to sunlight.

Record water clarity with photos over time by placing jars against a white background [sheet of paper] and let us know what happens - if one jar clears faster than another, etc. If you have an ionic imbalance your turbidity will not improve. If turbidity is caused by something mechanical [fish, wind, erosion] the water will clear.

If you have an ionic imbalance, you'll need to address the water chemistry through alum, lime, gypsum, or hay treatments. It can be done and we can help.

Photo tips: take the pics the same way every time... It's Best to use a room with no windows so that sun light does not change the results. Flash can be difficult to use, so don't use the flash. Get good light and use the same lights every time. Try to take it from the same distance and at the same angle. Avoid reflections.

My 2 cents...I look forward to your process...I have a muddy pond too.

I cant think you guys enuff. I will get to it this weekend for sure. Jars with lids right?

Right.

Iv tired posting this a few times so if its pops up with a bunch pardon my ignorance please. Here is the test starting on Aug 16th at noon. It has rained off and on all morning. Dont know if it matters or not.

Ok keep an eye on the jars - eventually we're hoping for the material to be sitting on the bottom of the jar and the water to clear. We need to make a note of how long this takes. If it settles out you have a mechanical issue...what species of fish do you have? Do you have lot's of wind action and erosion issues? Tell us more, please.

Some wind not much of erosion. I have mayb 4 catfish left,lots crappy,lots bass and fathead minnows. Iv caught some kind of perch but not 100% sure on wht it was. Do I need to burp the jars or leave them closed.

Doesn’t matter on lids but I always keep mine shut

The smaller the silt, clay detritus particles the longer it will take for them to settle in the jars; sometimes 7-10 days.

Ok I had an issue. Kids dumped the "nasty water" out. Cant say i blame them it just looked like dirty water. So retaking the pictures.

You can see the white thru the glass but that's about it. Where do I go from here?

Since its only been 6 days, I suggest keeping those jars on the shelf and check on them for settling.

In the meantime you might want to start reading up on treatments available. This is a good document: http://baylor.agrilife.org/files/2011/05/Control_of_Clay_Turbidity_12.pdf

To get inspired, take a new quart jar of muddy water and put a pinch of alum (from the spice dept of walmart) into it and shake it up. In a few minutes it will clump up and eventually turn gin-clear.

For doing you own testing to determine quantities of additive needed, you will need to find a very accurate scale. I used a scale in a lab at work to find it took 1.1 grams of aluminum sulfate to clear a 5 gallon bucket of water. Which worked out to 165(?) pounds to acre-ft.

You will also need to estimate the acre-ft of water in your pond.

For your original question, I don't think anyone can tell you how long the treatment will last beyond "it depends". Rainman recommended a minimum of 200 lbs per ac-ft.

You should check out floc logs...they use polymer to clear turbidity, longer lasting than alum I believe.

The second picture of the jars taken after the first looks very consistent on the turbidity level....I suspect colloidal clay, but time in the jars will tell for sure. Given your 10 year history of "always been muddy", only reinforces my belief the turbidity is from colloidal clay.

To answer your question on how long Alum treatments last, the solids removed in a proper treatment, is permanent, HOWEVER, if new colloidal clay enters the pond, it can, and eventually will cloud up again. Once Alum clears the water, an algal bloom should begin. This bloom is nature's filter for "average", new turbidity entering the pond...if the turbidity clouds and kills the algal bloom, the solids in the water clump to the dead algae and go to the bottom, clearing the water and allowing new blooms...

Turbidity is the "symptom" of Colloidal clay, Alum treats the symptom....The cause of the disease is erosion from your watershed...bare spots of clay, creeks with exposed clay sides in the watershed. If you have established grasses around the pond now and inflow area soils are stable, your pond should, and likely will clear in 3-7 days after a heavy rain.

Floc logs require water flow to work. The results, if done properly last no longer than any other treatment...the "floc logs" themself last longer, and dissolve slower, releasing a very highly positively charged ion (+13 to +18 depending on the most effective formula for your specific water chemistry {Alum plus H lime is a +4 ionic charge})

That's alot of info for my small mind. I'm in the middle of redigging it now. So I would say all the new dirt isnt going to help it. Will some clay never settle down and always stay suspended in the water without treatment? My watershed is all grass from my yard. When it's raining you can see clear water flooding the pond. But the clear wont go very far into the murky abyss. Thank you for all the help.

New ponds with all dirt clay shorelines will always tend to stay turbid especially after rain events. Wind action against exposed shorelines continually resuspend settled clay particles. Frequent or constant aeration will also help to keep tiny particulates suspended in the water column. As these pond age they build up an organic bio-accumulation layer that over time tends to cover the exposed bottom soils. This bio-layer including algae and weeds separates the clay from the overlying water and aged ponds often become more clear. In ponds with more sandy soils this constant resuspension of colloidal clay particles does not happen as much due to lack of clay bottom sediments.

Lots of ponds in NW Ohio get the entire shoreline lined with gravel or large crushed limestone down to a depth of 2 to 4 ft. These ponds quickly become clear 4 to 8ft even in clay bottom soils providing no sediment disturbing fish are present. It is not uncommon for some of these ponds to have water clarity of 10ft to 18ft. This often occurs in ponds with only bass.

I added 1 teaspoon of alum. This is after only 5 minutes.

RStringer, did ANY sediment settle on the bottoms of the jars when tested? If there is no settled out particles after even 3 days, the turbidity in unlikely to be mechanical (wind/wave action, fish). IIRC you said somewhere your pond is 1/8th acre? At 1/8 acre, I suggest going ahead and treating your pond "heavy" with 200 pounds Aluminum Sulfate and 100 pounds of Hydrated Lime (Calcium Hydroxide). Cost is very minimal for staggeringly positive results.

Yes alot of junk n the bottom. I think I will wait til after I get it all dug out before I add anything to it.

Is it feasible to plant some groundcover on the exposed dirt? Some quick sprouting oats, rye, or wheat may stabilize the dirt so you don't have so much runoff clouding your pond. You would need to get it going now though for it to get a good root system.

I would and will do some planting. But I'm still digging on it. Kinda of hard to explain with pictures. I wish I was smarter n cud put a vid on here. I could walk around it. I'm raising the damn on 1 side and digging out on the other. Hoping to bring the water line up about 3 feet.

Just took another picture. That's crazy how much 1 teaspoon can change that nasty water. I never would have thought it works that ez.

Help me understand all this plz. This water turns gin clear within hours. Just from very little bit of aluminwhen. I stir this up it goes clear again really fast.if it goes clear with just alum wht do I need to put in the hydrated lime in also.

Hyd Lime is the pH buffer. The Alum alone drops pH, Hyd Lime balances the effects of that and also adds a slight useful alkalinity rise.
Important to get a pH reading before treatment to determine amount of Hyd Lime to use after Alum application.
Oh Heck, RAINMAN is BACK!!! Listen to him, he'll give you good, sound advice.

Thank you for all the help and advice. I hope by spring time I am done digging and have my dam put back together. Maybe by this time next year it will be full and clear. I got the wife on board when she seen how clear it gets with alum.

You should probably wait until the there is dense vegetation on all the exposed soil before bothering with an alum treatment. aquatic plants on the edges help too.

Agreed...I still don't understand how long it required your jar test to clear. Did you ever allow turbidity to settle before adding Alum?

Im not sure how long I waited maybe a week and nothing seemed to be falling to the bottom. Should I do another test. I added the alum to one of them and just started playing with how much it took. I ended up adding somewhere like 20 grains of alum to clear it up within mintues. They get gin clear in bout 10. And yes I mean 20 grains im not sure I can even measure that. I might try this on a bigger scale (for test purposes). My next question is where do you buy the alum and lime in bulk? The farm store here looked at me like I was crazy.

I would perform the following tests:

Two jars filled with pond water.

Put one in a dark place - other exposed to some light.

Take photos with white background on day one, monitor both jars every day. Take additional photos periodically with white background. Allow the water some time. Report findings and post photos. I'd keep this test going at least 2 weeks up to 4 so we can review the data together. It's entirely possible you have an ionic imbalance and will require gypsum or alum treatment - but let's be 100% sure and allow the jar test data to be established first before you start spending $$. Be diligent, keep good photo records, post for us.

If I get a chance I will start a new round of test tonight. TJ I hope you are told how much everyone on here appreciates your help. You knowledge has helped a lot of people. Your post brings up another question from me. What does the GYPSUM do?

Thanks amigo, that's kind of you to say and makes my day. I owe the forum a debt of gratitude and try to pay it back whenever I can. I've received so much direction from the forum vets, some of whom aren't even living now, I know I'll never come close to repaying.

Gypsum works in the same manner as alum, and while I believe it will take more to achieve similar results, it's also safer [no PH sag] and may be more accessible or affordable.

Looking ahead...in 2-4 weeks if there is no settling in the jars we will conclude ionic imbalance. Rex Rains makes a living performing alum treatments [we worked on a project together at my place] and he's a great resource. He can source alum/lime cheap and is good applicator.

Well I havnt been able 2 start the new test yet. I got caught up at work a couple days and it's been pouring here anytime I get a chance. I'm guessing that would change since things since I would mostly be scoping up fresh rain water and not a true test of the standing water in there. I will most certainly post all the pictures and results I get.

I have a question or a thought or whatever you wanta call it. I was thinking since clay seems to be the problem with the suspension of it. When it does accumulate together and fall. Wont it help seal the pond at that point? If there is a leaking point. Wont it find the seep and help seal it? Kind of like a bathtub drain. If so would that help more people to be able to put bags of clay around the seep? I could be way off on this just trying to use my simple mind a little bit. If so any body need some clay i have some extra. The more ya take the deeper my pond gets lol.

Here is the latest test run. Starting Sept. 22nd it rained this morning (if it matters). I hope this can help a few people and myself out. DANG that's some dirty water. Whoever knows how to get this picture to pop up feel free to go ahead and do it. I'm doing good to get them on here. Thanks again for everyone's help throughout this little journey. If anyone has thoughts or ideas please feel free to let me and the forum know. Right wrong or in different.

Here you go...



Type "[img]"then copy/paste the photo's url, then type "[/img]"

No spaces and no quote marks.

Thank You QA.

Place one in a closet or under a towel one with access to sunlight. Don’t disturb them except to take photos. Good start.

I put 1 in a window and the other under a blanket. I m glad you think that's a good start because it looks terribly nasty to me. I got another jug to play with. Where can I find just a little bit of the gypsum at?

Don’t treat the two test jars with anything yet we need to determine natural settling process time (if they settle). If you want to play around with amendments use a 3rd jar. Local coop should be able to help you source gypsum.

That's what I was meaning ( 3rd jar ). Thank you had no idea where to get it from.

If I move these jars at all I seems to stir it up. How often should I move them to take a picture ? Can I put them next to each other and just cover 1 up or does it need to be out of the sunlight completely ? Sorry for all the questions but they can help the next person also.

Move them as little as possible, but what gets stirred up (a little bit anyhow) will settle pretty quickly and not skew the results significantly. Keeping light from the one jar is important...put them together and cover the one with a heavy black plastic bag, solid bucket, tin foil hat, or whatever to keep all the light out.

I can do that no problem. I will leave them next to each other so I don't have to move them. What does the light and darkness do different? I understand the light will go grow algae. Just curious if its a major thing to explain nobody has to bother.

The basic concept is that if the covered jar settles out and the uncovered does not, then you have light requiring life creating the turbidity. I'm sure that it's rarely that cut an dry, but you get the idea.

If both jars settle out at the same rate...then it's sediments in the cloud.

Not sure what you'd have if only the uncovered jar settled out...dark loving aliens maybe, lol.

Here's my 3rd jar test. Just messing around on this 1. Now nobody panick it's just alum. I gave that up for lent along time ago. And I'm not even catholic. I just did it for reference with a penny to tell how much I put in there.

I checked in 2 days my test jar ( just playing around). Went from nasty to drinkable. I wouldn't really drink it but it looks like regular tap water besides all the crude at the bottom. This was done with very little alum.

I have what maybe a dumb question. I got a load of rock delivered to my house. We wanted lava lock and they brought man sand. Its for a play ground in the back yard. Anyway didn't want to put the man sand back there so I just had them dump it close to the pond. They told me its crushed limestone. Heres the question is this going to be like adding ag lime or is it different? I was thinking about making spawning areas with it. I got 4 tons of it if that matters. Is this advisable or is it a bad idea?

Here is the latest photo

Man sand will be good for your pond. Our midwestern soils tend to be on the acid side. I don't think you can put too much limestone in a pond out here in flyover country.

Thank you 4 the response wasnt sure if I should go ahead with it or not.

+1 what Augie said . Can’t hardly get to much in the pond won’t act real fast but will raise ph .

The lime will help clear the water up some also , least it did mine

The reason you perform two jar tests one covered one uncovered is to determine the degree of planktonic algae that may be causing turbidity. If your turbidity was caused by algae the dark jar would clear and the other jar would remain turbid. From these tests it's evident it's not algae, rather suspending clay particulate, causing your turbidity.

It appears the turbidity is improving as there's some accumulation on the bottom of the jar. Keep them sitting and continue monitoring. If it takes weeks to settle it doesn't mean you can't jump start the process with an amendment [Alum, gypsum, hay bales], but does demonstrate that given time the pond will settle naturally - allowing you options to consider moving forward.

Establishing emergent and submerged vegetation, shoreline stabilization with limestone, riprap or emergent vegetation [rushes, sedges, iris, arrowhead, etc.] and slowing down/clarifying the watershed runoff prior to entering pond are all positive steps towards filtering clay particulate from the pond and reducing turbidity.

What TJ said plus a heaping helping of patience cured mine. Waiting is the hardest skill of pondmiestering for me.

Man I cant think everyone enough. Hopefully by this time next year I will be done digging and have vegetation growth all the way around. I was wanting to do some kind of riprap. I want to wait until I know where my waterline will be and if it holds water also. This is just me and my *little orange tractor that could( 33hp kubota. I'm sure I'm well over 1000 scopes that iv taking already. I was having a hard time not calling in a dozer. But after reading augie story again It gives me some pride just doing this mud puddle by myself.

Rusty that IS an achievement to dig a pond with a tractor. I have a MX 5100 Kubota (call her Urnch) and can’t imagine doing what you are doing.... Bravo! Dug a retention pond in the clay behind the twin 24” corrugated plastic pipe for the road over the spillway that was where we were to drive..... that was fun

It has been alot of tilling then scoping. It is pretty cool to see your vision starting to take shape for sure. The bucket on yours would be nice. The little tractor that could has been a great investment so far so over 250 hours on it. Not all have been in the pond. I would say I'm close to 100 hours on it so far.

Not much difference if any since the last update. I guess this is good and bad. I could have little to no clay and have to haul it in to get a good seal.

Post day 1 and most recent photos side by side let’s check them out

Here's the side by side results.

This will help a bit...

Thank you QA I still cant figure out how to do that. I'm doing good to get the screen shot on here. Strong back weak mind is what iv been told all my life. Some have neither lol.

My next question is. Is there away to get the clay to stay clumped together once its sinks? Seems like there should be a way of removing it or draining and packing again maybe. Not that to do the second idea but iv did stupider things.

Once mine dropped out of suspension, it hasn't been a problem. I think it is more important to get good ground cover, so bare dirt is at a minimum. Then stock pond so you don't have too many varmints rooting around in the muck stirring things up. The hardest thing for me was having patience to let nature do her thing. So far I have zero in water vegetation, not by choice. I've done a couple of plantings that didn't take (crawfish problem?), so I decided to put in more brush and worry about plants when my BOW decides it's ready for them. I'm trying to tweak mother nature instead of enforcing my will. Time will see how that works out.

I have a few (maybe 10) catfish. I added 3 kio which I know both can be a problem. I'm hoping they don't keep it stirred up all the time. I plan on adding more vegetation when I'm done digging. I want some lilly pads. I have crawdads also. Iv got a lil creek in my backyard that I got them from. At certain times of the years you can dip them out. I took a small fish net and could get prolly 10 in each scope. I put prolly 300 - 500 in the pond. Fish went crazy when I threw them in. Free snacks.

I got some water hyacinth started this year. The fella I got the koi from gave me a few of them. Just in a month or so so they double in size. I plan on bring them inside the weather when it gets colder here. I want to get them established and they should help some. If I can get enough and seem to be good for yoy also.

Here's apart of the plant I got starts from. I think its called water hyacinth.

Koi and CC can both create turbidity issues especially in ponds without any established macrophytes. I would remove all CC possible and the Koi as well. Both are fine in ponds without turbidity issues, but I strongly suspect both are working against your efforts to combat turbidity.

What is "established macrophytes".

Google says: Macrophytes are aquatic plants growing in or near water. They may be either emergent (i.e., with upright portions above the water surface), submerged or floating.

And emergent and submerged-rooted-Macrophytes are probably the most important type of vegetation you can have. Very important piece of the puzzle as TJ suggests..

The season is just about over but got another question. Iv read that mowing towards the water is good for the water and also bad. Which one is it good or bad for water clarity?

Also had another idea. Since i'm in the middle of digging my pond out I was thinking. Would it be helping to spread alum out along the bottom before the water fills it up or would that be a waste? Is there anything you can do before the water comes to help with the clarity. Would spreading the ag lime over the clay layer help or just a waste of money? I know I ramble lot my wife tells me all the time. I say I'm a thinker and a doer lol (more thinking than doing). Right now as the water runs over the topsoil its clear and as soon as it hits the clay its murky. Just seems like maybe theres a way to avoid the murkiness before it happen. Is it a good idea to put topsoil on top of the clay layer when done digging?

You should ck your soil before you add the lime to the ponds bottom but I would try lime additions if lime is needed, before I would use alum to clear up the water. Alum is not cheap. And you would have to use hydrated lime along with the alum to keep the pH in the desired range. I would suggest you wait and see before u just throw things into the water.

With how much talk there is on here about alum its sure hard to find it for sale. I look under the resource guide and not finding it on any of the websites. Am I just missing it or whats the deal?

Do you have any Helena Chemical plant/warehouses in your area?
Helena has a source and can get it for you.

Holy crap its going to be over 600 dollars just for the alum. I was told a minimum of 200 lbs. Its 150 bucks plus for 48 lbs. That's not including the Ag lime that has to be added. I guess I havnt seen anyone post the number on the price on here before. I wasnt thinking it would cost so much.

Keep looking I paid about a little less than 50 per bag. As a last resort contact a local water treatment plant in your area. They could tell you who supplies them. They use alum powder but I think most have gone to liquid form these days.

Thanks for the tip Tracy. I happen to know a few cities workers.

Here is the latest pic of the test. Some progress made. I'm sure the CC and koi and crawdads are not helping my problem. I think when I'm done with the dig I will take the rest of the cats out.

Here's the latest of the jar I was playing around with. It's almost like a magnifying glass looking thur it.

The latest picture dont show much difference. I reread this post and I wasnt correct on my info. I said my bank was all grass. That was wrong it was all grass until I started digging on it. It had always had terrible visibility. I guess I was speaking of the water before the dig. The water hasnt changed much.

Rainman got a question? Dont know if want to talk numbers on here or not. Your PM is all full.

Here's the last test. It looks like just dirty water now. Before it was just nasty looking. You can see thur it now at least. But man just a tad bit of alum. And bam gin clear. Its amazing how that stuff works and how little.

Okay I got another question. Let's say my pond would take 300 pounds of alum. to clear it up. But I only put in 200 because I dont want some of the problems that come with crystal clear water. Will it clear up most of the way or is it an all or nothing type of deal? I'm sure this has been answered before but it's kinda slow here during the winter so bouncing some ideas around.

When applying alum to clear water you have to reach the tipping point where flocculation occurs or nothing will happen.

When applying alum, and there are fish in there, you have to keep testing the pH and have some hydrated lime on hand to buffer it with or the pH change could kill the fish.

I understand bout the lime. What I was questioning is the tipping point. I didnt know about that. I figured it took so much to get it clear. My thoughts was if i just wanted to clear it up somewhat but not totally clear. Didnt know there was a tipping point to start the flocculation. So it is kind of all or nothing. Not trying to waste anyone's time on this. Just curious on how this all works. I'm sure there are other tht dont totally understand this. Dont get me wrong I would love gin clear water. It sounds like it comes with other headaches along with it.

Once the water clears, it won't stay gin clear for long, with the sunlight you will get a phytoplankton bloom and that will limit sunlight penetration, depending on how dense the bloom is. I'll see if I can get Rex to chime in.

I did some experimenting before I used the alum/lime treatment. Using a 5 gal bucket of pond water and started adding grams of alum to determine how many sks of alum to use. I stayed with Rex's recommendations of 2 alum to 1 hydrated lime when I treated the pond. For total gin clear water it came up to around 112 sks for this 3 acre pond. I wound up using 89 sks with 45 sks of lime. I added it to 1/2 the pond. My thinking was the other half of the ponds might act as a refuge for the fish during treatment. And I figured the pond water would blend at some point. I wound up with water clarity going from 9" to 36" and within a few days it settled in at 30" of water with a green tent. There have been no other headaches. But I will say I now have vegetation growing in the pond. Bushy Pondweed is growing where I had none before. I'm pretty sure the veg growth is due to more light penetration the ponds bottom. I did the treatment because of high detritus most likely being disturbed/suspended by the bottom diffusers

Its chemistry . The reaction point is chemical as are the reactions - negative and positive charges need to combine. Tracy yours sounds typical.

Note - All the coagulants mentioned can
remove phosphorus from water.
As phosphorus is an essential
plant nutrient, it may be necessary
to fertilize the pond after treating
it for turbidity. On occasion, phytoplankton
and clay can mutually
coagulate, so fertilizing to start a
phytoplankton bloom may also
clear water of suspended clay particles.