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Hi Ty PM sent!


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Just wondering if anyone has a source for PK shrimp, I would love to get them established in my Western NY pond

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Try ebay - our source closed years ago.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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teehjaeh57 #519847 04/23/20 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by teehjaeh57
Try ebay - our source closed years ago.

Thanks for the referral, Just to let you know that I ordered PK Shrimp on ebay yesterday. Only a trial order to start. I don't know exactly what day they are scheduled to ship but the order is due to be delivered Friday May 1st. I will post on their condition after I receive them.

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Look at tropical fish stores, some of ours get glass shrimp weekly (fish food) and sell for ten cents each.


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PK shrimp will survive in a pond that freezes over. But ONLY that specific type will. Pet food shrimp are usually warm weather shrimp species that will not overwinter in a NY pond.

KenHorton #519886 04/24/20 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by KenHorton
Thanks for the referral, Just to let you know that I ordered PK Shrimp on ebay yesterday.


The ebay guy in Louisiana? I bought a sampler pack from him last year. They arrived in good shape during some 85°-90° weather.

Augie #519901 04/24/20 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Augie
Originally Posted by KenHorton
Thanks for the referral, Just to let you know that I ordered PK Shrimp on ebay yesterday.


The ebay guy in Louisiana? I bought a sampler pack from him last year. They arrived in good shape during some 85°-90° weather.


Yep, that's the guy. I wanted to order early in the year to take advantage of shipping in the cooler temperatures. I am relieved to hear that your shrimp arrived in good condition.

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This guy was on the forum a while and solicited business illegally via PM - only authorized advertisers are allowed by Bob Lusk to benefit fiscally from the forum resource. When addressed said guy decided to stop frequenting the forum instead of paying for the right to market on the forum/invest in our shared resource [which is a very cheap annual payment], but the damage was done as he'd already secured several sales by then.

Lusk makes it easy to play by the rules here, and many of us look for ways to express our gratitude to Bob and Mike for providing this amazing resource, like my volunteer time [moderators], donations to the forum, or paying for the opportunity to advertise in Pond Boss. Sadly some simply manipulate the system for their financial gain. Guess we all know folks like that, thankfully they don't frequent here often.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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This only highlights the fact that there seems to be a significant pent up demand for someone to help out as a source for PK shrimp.

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The way PK shrimp are sold is ridiculous for a pond owner. The prices reflect more of a aquarium product than a forage starter product. They need to be sold by the pound at a price that reflects value to buyer and that adequately compensates the opportunity lost (for alternatives) by the culturist. Some day I will culture them but I doubt I will invest into production facilities that would supply all the demand that you refer to. If I have enough for me, at a reasonable cost, I think I would be satisfied.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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It can be very labor intensive collecting PK - that's reflected in the pricing - that's also the reason i don't provide them commercially. That guy selling them on Ebay wades in swamps, canals, and ditches for them. Bear in mind, "exotic" species of forage like LCS, SFS, BNM often go for $4/ea or more [just ask Snipe] - yeah it's aquarium pricing, but due to low demand, it's what the market bears. When you compare shrimp pricing to WE, SMB, YP, etc. they are comparable. When I collect shrimp I easily spend $1/ea in collection effort labor, including the hours spent separating them from BF tadpoles and YOY sunfish - it's a total muddy PITA and sometimes a few hours will yield 25-50 PK. The only feasible way to approach this would be to dedicate a cell to PK shrimp reproduction - demand just isn't high enough for me to dedicate a cell to PK shrimp production and hassle with interstate shipping [and potential legal issues], live arrival guarantees/refunds, etc.

One other thing to consider is when one stocks PK in the right environment/timing, they will create a self sustaining population and there's no need for further investment. That helped me mitigate the initial stocking sticker shock when I started 10 years ago. Now all my 7 ponds have solid populations - but I did invest significantly initially at $.50 a pop.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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so TJ it sounds like if many/most of us got a few going in a pond that had enough vegetation and correct water quality characteristics, then many could get a solid population. If then folks wanted to help out other folks by providing a small starting population, the missing link to success is just collection? So to me it sounds like a successful entrepenuer would experiment with new innovative ways to collect them? It sounds like wading around with nets is the current method which is labor intensive. Perhaps some outside of the box thinking about attractants, baits, or traps would close the gap on success? I would certainly love to have a separate forage tank/cell to do just that.

I wonder if a environment high in the nutrients or minerals they require would cause them to congregate?

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Just so everyone knows ... I don't think anyone is overpaying for PK shrimp. If one is going to collect specimens from the wild ... that has value and it also cost ... it deserves compensation.

Many years ago PK shrimp were investigated in species combinations for fish production. The treatments were on the order of 20 lbs/acre. To be sure, these experiments didn't have the scientists wading the swamps ... they cultured them ... and yes we have known how to culture them for a long time. So why doesn't anyone culture them today?

Let me pose this as question. Why would someone stop producing FHM in a space in order to produce PK shrimp? The only reason I could think of is that it would pay him to do it. But consider producing 600 lbs of PK shrimp in the space you could produce 4000-6000 pounds of FHM. You would need to price the shrimp much higher. The guy on ebay sells them for $800 a pound in the 200 count. He deserves the price because you can't get it anywhere else. If anyone wants to complain about the price ... collect them yourself and you wouldn't mind it so much. Besides, its not like he is getting rich. According to the listing he has sold 20 of the packages. Its worth his while, supplements his income, but it isn't a living even though he is the only supplier.

But lets say someone decides to culture them and prices them by the pound at say $80. Do you think he would be interested to sell anyone a 200 count of them? Don't you think he would want to sell you 5 lbs instead? Who among us would be willing to pay $400-$800 to add an invertebrate? To be sure, there are some and I am among them. Even so, there are not very many.


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jpsdad,
Thanks for the background info. I didn't mean anyone was going to start a business or make money. I was thinking that like so many other things on this forum, our 'family' would have enough to help each other. Even if each had one forage pond full, having a way to harvest them to share with others (beyond wading and netting) would really help all of us help each other. This is where putting our combined experience and innovation together may help. Since you are right, it won't be a money maker and probalby will never be a commercial interest of anyone, then that usually pulls down the barriers for sharing. There is no trade secret and no lost fortunes at stake. I would think if someone was really good at it they might be able to sell some to their local bait shop but outside of that it probably would remain local and on a small scale.

The Fattig family who used to sell to members of this forum kept their collection method private. I can understand this, to protect their income. But now it seems that all sources have dried up. It would help all of us if a little of the knowledge about how to culture or how to capture was not 'patented'. I also think many retirees have a little time on their hands and a trackhoe in their barn, it might be fun to dig a hole, try to plant some eelgrass and then ask the forum for what water condtions, hardness, pH, calcium, etc is best for supporting PK shrimp? They might also learn how to encourage breeding and then they could experiment with different types of methods of collecting. Perhaps see if a circulating pump and filter would make collection less labor intensive? How about nutrient attractants? Put the females all in one area? Experiment with zones of higher or lower temperature within the pond, or with artificial light of different wavelengths.

I know in my pond there was a specific event that made all the PK shrimp come out of hiding and be easy to spot in the shallows for a day or two. I believe they all were reacting to a specific nerve irritant at the same time. If I could reproduce the conditions and not 'irritate' them enough to kill them, it might be a way to collect larger quantities. Unfortunately, I can't grow enough vegetation to support them in my pond. Time for a forage pond smile

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canyon,

My main point was less about economics and more about the pondmeister's need. 200 shrimp is a tiny quantity that may take years to fully establish in a 1 acre pond. It would be helpful if one could affordably purchase sufficient quantities that would provide both a meaningful impact in the year of introduction but also provide sufficient reproduction to determine whether the population overwintered and established.

Say if you want to culture them I could offer some suggestions. In terms of my own plans, I want some small forage culturing ponds to complement the main bow. What is cultured in them will complement the forage of the main bow. PK shrimp, among some other forages, have potential to produce many times their stocking weight and so there is a leveraging effect. Berried crayfish also offer similar potential. I would, however, probably only culture PK shrimp until I determine that the overwintering standing weight in the main bow is large in comparison to what can be cultured. So the forage produced would evolve.

Rather than collecting PK shrimp from your main BOW, why not create a smaller BOW that if fishless and culture the PK shrimp there. For every 100 ft^2 you could grow about 2.75 lbs annually. That equates to about 3575 shrimps. You only need to reserve about 200 shrimps for seed then next year. Might have to keep them inside through winter and it would be best if the production pond is drained and dried between crops. PK numbers and weight will peak in August and November. Taking a crop in August may increase overall production. Just supply your BOW or pondboss members when you crop. Collection in a culturing facility like this could be done with a large dip net with a fine mesh. To reach the production level of 2.75 lbs/100 ft^2 will probable require the addition of a substrate (eg cedar brush). Before harvest you would remove the brush and seine with your net. If the production pond will drain into your main bow, you could empty it in the fall via drain.


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Been working with PK shrimp for the past 7-8 years now - this is what I learned about stocking strategies with direction from Cody and Travis and through many trials [and errors!]:

Fisheries with sufficient macrophytes established prior to predator stocking [only FHM/GSH forage present] we stocked 250-500/AC. For fisheries with established predators [and macrophytes] present we doubled that number to 1000/AC. For fisheries lacking habitat [macrophytes] regardless of fishery present we strongly encouraged not to invest in PK introduction until habitat could be established. By following these guidelines a self sustaining population developed in every project in which I was involved within a season. In some cases [due to low qty of PK available] I've achieved this with as few as 50 adults, but the population took longer to establish, as one would suspect. Hope some of this is helpful.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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TJ,

The literature is a good reference for simultaneous stocking with fingerling fish but your experience (and Bill's) of introducing into ponds with adult fish is very valuable.

Generally, when a new species invades a new habitat it will build in numbers over a few seasons finally reaching it's a maximum after this buildup. Fish eat them and they would be poor forage if they didn't so this predation helps to slow down the build up. After 7 years, what are your thoughts on how long it took for the PK shrimp to reach their final place?

PK shrimp evolved with macrophytes as habitat and their importance is duly noted. But it may surprise one to learn that there is an alternative to them for cover. Brush has been demonstrated to greatly increase production of PK shrimp relative to controls and may work to protect a population while the macrophytes populations are developing.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


jpsdad #520096 04/28/20 10:04 PM
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How do PK Shrimp overwinter? I just ordered 100 for my pond that has plenty of vegetation 9 months of year but all the pond weed dies back during coldest months of the winter (I am in northern VA). I don't have predators now but will add SMB next spring. Hoping PK Shrimp can be a permanent and sustainable part of food chain. Do I need to add brush to help with winter survivals?

Ken77 #520097 04/28/20 10:55 PM
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Ken,

I would think brush would probably help with winter survival ... at least it is an arguable outcome. In the what I have read, brush and plants were not discussed as cover for the shrimp but rather as substrate providing additional attachment surface that winds up providing more food for shrimp relative to the control.

The most production I have seen cited was with brush in combination with fertilization. In the treatments where fertilization and brush were used, the production of PK shrimp was 1044 lbs/acre. What is remarkable about that number is that the shrimp were stocked with 1500 2" BG/acre which produced 210 lbs/acre of BG. All this in the space of 6 months.

Stocked without brush in fertilized ponds and as a monoculture, the PK shrimp only produced 566 lbs/acre. When fertilized ponds without brush were stocked with 1500 BG/acre they produced about 93 lbs/acre of PK shrimp and 209.5 lbs/acre of BG.

So the interesting part is that the brush didn't make a difference in the GAIN of 1500 BG/acre. Apparently, the BG ate as much as they were able to in both treatments. The difference for the PK shrimp is that there was much more food and habitat for them because of the brush. In so much as the brush produces more shrimp, brush must also help more of them overwinter even if it were to provide no meaningful cover for shrimp.

Grass shrimp have a few things going for them with respect to survival. They reproduce, they can eat a wide variety of foods including detritus, and they have adapted to be difficult to see. All these things help them survive predation and establish populations.

***Bump***

PK shrimp are not native to Virginia but P. Paludosus is and depending on your location may be better than kadiakensis.

Last edited by jpsdad; 04/28/20 11:10 PM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


teehjaeh57 #520099 04/29/20 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by teehjaeh57
Been working with PK shrimp for the past 7-8 years now - this is what I learned about stocking strategies with direction from Cody and Travis and through many trials [and errors!]:

Fisheries with sufficient macrophytes established prior to predator stocking [only FHM/GSH forage present] we stocked 250-500/AC. For fisheries with established predators [and macrophytes] present we doubled that number to 1000/AC. For fisheries lacking habitat [macrophytes] regardless of fishery present we strongly encouraged not to invest in PK introduction until habitat could be established. By following these guidelines a self sustaining population developed in every project in which I was involved within a season. In some cases [due to low qty of PK available] I've achieved this with as few as 50 adults, but the population took longer to establish, as one would suspect. Hope some of this is helpful.

TJ, I bought 1,000 PK shrimp and spread them 20 to 40 in various shallow weed areas in my pond. Haven't seen them since, but I haven't looked either. Hope they made it.


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Considering they're translucent it requires collection efforts to verify presence - I have the best luck once water temps reach 70s in shallow vegetation.


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Do you guys think PK Shrimp have an advantage over scuds?? Also, HOW well do they over winter? I have VERY few predators and TONS of fantastic habitat. If they are significantly better than scuds I will add some and see what happens.


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teehjaeh57 #520108 04/29/20 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by teehjaeh57
Considering they're translucent it requires collection efforts to verify presence - I have the best luck once water temps reach 70s in shallow vegetation.

Are they spawned out at that time?

wbuffetjr #520109 04/29/20 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by wbuffetjr
Do you guys think PK Shrimp have an advantage over scuds?? Also, HOW well do they over winter? I have VERY few predators and TONS of fantastic habitat. If they are significantly better than scuds I will add some and see what happens.

Probably the best advantage of PK shrimp is that they grow much larger than scuds and provide a bigger meal. In your situation, it could be risky to develop a large population that carries into winter. PK will be at that their maximum biomass in the fall going into the ice season. So the risk might be that they tip the balance on O2.

Its not clear whether they would do well in a mountain lake or whether they would survive the winter conditions. On the other hand, If they were to do well, you could never get rid of them.


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