Forums36
Topics41,000
Posts558,370
Members18,522
|
Most Online3,612 Jan 10th, 2023
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099 Likes: 23
Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
|
Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099 Likes: 23 |
WOW!!! I've never seen a recommendation of more than 250-300 BG/acre unless it was by someone that was also selling the fish. 75 LMB per acre might be possible if conditions were perfect I guess but 40-50 seems more appropriate. I'm completely missing something on these stocking rates I guess. I should be considering I'm from a different part of the country, but that sure seems extremely high to me..?? EDIT: I went and looked up your source. I assumed it was a publication..It is a supplier, I will apologize for my comments about "recommendations from a supplier", but I will not apologize for believing that is too high.. I believe it is. Snipe, in your area, your pond is very fertile. You could easily stock 3000 to 4000 BG per acre, and 100 LMB without any problem at all. I know you work with some state pros, yet states are usually VERY conservative, and most stocking information is based on books written more than 75 years ago, and little modern day empirical evidence that is repeatable, often gets little more than scoffed at by many a state fishery biologist...some states stay abreast of change, but those are in the minority. A lot of the reasons for an abhorrence to modern methods and change could be due to concentrating on "native" fish species over sport fishing
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,254 Likes: 550
|
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,254 Likes: 550 |
Rainman, I'd say you are correct on how I think.. I guess I've been trained to think a certain way. This is new territory to me being "unleashed". Having these high stocking rates and as ewest commented above about "balancing on a knife blade", this situation requires very proactive, hands-on management practices. That is something we don't have when managing a public fishery. Such as..if a 15" min is set, the fish will start leaving at 12".. As you probably well know, managing public waters is more about managing the people vs the fish. I do the best I can and this knowledge here on private, controlled ponds is new to me so good chance I'll stick both feet in my mouth on occasion.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,512 Likes: 269
Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
|
Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,512 Likes: 269 |
Goals and location make a difference. There are often several ways to reach the same place.
Sorry about your situation Scott. From What I see I think you have a problem not caused entirely by crowding. It is a guess however. Please let us know what the biologists find.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,088 Likes: 96
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,088 Likes: 96 |
Snipe I am no pro but have been reading on this forum for a few years and manage 5 ponds of my own. Keep in mind those stocking rates are starting with a blank slate. No fish present when stocked. Here is the thinking, based on what I have read here on PBF and gathered from other posters, as well as some limited experience of my own. Stocking a relative small number of BG can actually lead to more fish rather than less. In some very old research papers, stocking only as few as 5 pair of BG produced enough offspring to completely provide fish to reach carrying capacity of the pond quickly. In fact, stocking more initially actually led to lower overall fish populations, the reason being the initial stocked fish became predators for newly hatched fish of the first and subsequent spawns. So the 5 pairs produced more spawned reproduction than say if the a hundred fish were initially stocked, because of lowered predation. The other thing that comes into play is the first fish stocked are usually the best growth rates the pond has to offer. Later spawns have difficulty attaining the growth rate of the initial stockers because the pond quickly reaches carrying capacity and food becomes a limiting factor. So if nice BG are desired, if you stock a small number you will have a small number of nice BG but stocking larger numbers will produce larger numbers of those quick growing nice size BG. Not sure if I explained myself very well. But low stocking numbers can actually lead to over population. Stocking correct numbers for the goal desired can start out with the correct balance desired. Those are a couple reasons I have picked up and the actual stocking numbers depend on if LMB are the main goal, BG are the main goal, balanced pond main goal, etc. In a private pond where desirable size fish are wanted in the shortest time possible, it can be looked at differently than a large public lake with different dynamics. That is just my non-professional non-expert opinion. Now the experts can give you the real answer.
Last edited by snrub; 02/04/19 12:22 PM.
John
I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,799 Likes: 69
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
|
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,799 Likes: 69 |
FWIW the few LMB/BG fisheries I manage for clients I recommended a 250 RES 1,000-1,500 BG 25-100 LMB/AC ratio depending on goals, supplemental feeding, etc. Looks like I'm relying on some of the older data for those numbers, might want to nudge it up a tad.
For cool water species, again based on goals for the fishery and harvest plans, I recommend 250-500 RES, 250-500 YP, 25-100 SMB, 25-50 WE, 10-25 HSB/AC. With our recent HBCP success, I'm trying to determine ideal stocking numbers for them, but I'm guessing somewhere around 100-200/AC again depending on harvest, supplemental feeding programs and forage base type/management. Every fishery is unique in these respects, but that's a summary of how I work with my clients.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099 Likes: 23
Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
|
Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099 Likes: 23 |
As ewest stated, there are often many ways to attain a desired goal. Combine that statement with what Bill Cody says often, "It all depends". The latter statement is the most important! It all depends....on your unique pond, your unique goals, your unique fertility, your unique desire to commit to time managing your BOW...it ALL depends, Whether you choose your own management strategies or have a professional help/do it for you, what your desires and goals are will be the leading factor on what is done.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,758 Likes: 34
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,758 Likes: 34 |
FWIW the few LMB/BG fisheries I manage for clients I recommended a 250 RES 1,000-1,500 BG 25-100 LMB/AC ratio depending on goals, supplemental feeding, etc. Looks like I'm relying on some of the older data for those numbers, might want to nudge it up a tad. What is the AC abbreviation for?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 157
|
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 157 |
FWIW the few LMB/BG fisheries I manage for clients I recommended a 250 RES 1,000-1,500 BG 25-100 LMB/AC ratio depending on goals, supplemental feeding, etc. Looks like I'm relying on some of the older data for those numbers, might want to nudge it up a tad. What is the AC abbreviation for? I am going to guess AC is acre.
Nothing like seeing your bobber bobbing. 1 acre pond with LMB BG GSF BH CC and whatever else I can find Not after trophies I just like catching and eating fish Buddy R Hill
I Subscribe
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,758 Likes: 34
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,758 Likes: 34 |
What is the AC abbreviation for? I am going to guess AC is acre. [/quote] That would make sense. Thanks!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,094 Likes: 1
Lunker
|
OP
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,094 Likes: 1 |
UPDATE- Here is what she emailed me today. I will be taking her a water sample asap.
We’re still waiting from some test results but this is what we know so far: - monogenean (parasites) infestation on gills but within what we consider normal for fish living in a pond - gills had hyperplasia (were swollen) - liver of the largest fish was pale, suggesting a systemic disease We isolated a bacteria culture from that liver. We haven’t confirmed the bacterial species yet but we should have the results soon. Overall, based on what we know so far and in my opinion, I’m leaning towards a water quality issue that is making the fish susceptible to a bacterial infection. I believe the bacteria we have is a species of Aeromonas, a typical opportunistic pathogen that doesn’t cause problems when fish are maintain in good conditions. It is unusual for this time of the year, too cold, but…. that’s what I can tell you for now. We forgot to ask you for a water sample. If you don’t mind to stop by again and bring us ~ 1 L of water, we can check it for you.
I’ll let you know the definitive diagnosis before the weekend.
Scott Hanners
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,799 Likes: 69
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
|
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,799 Likes: 69 |
Scott...visually, your water sure looks healthy, nice phytoplanton bloom rolling and I see no evidence of excess nutrients by way of FA...and your BG are some of the finest I've ever seen, and I've seen A LOT of BG nationwide on here, in person, on BigBluegill.com etc. This is the first episode of a fishery wide lethal event targeting seemingly robust and super healthy fish that I've ever witnessed, so it's been very educational for myself and likely everyone else. I am really sorry for your situation, but considering your ability to grow amazing BG fast, it probably couldn't happen to a better guy in that respect as you'll be back at it in no time. One question...are these CNBG? If so, do you think their lower tolerance to cold water could have something to do with their susceptibility to an infection? If they are CNBG, are you considering stocking NBG to perhaps hedge your bets in case you get another polar event in the coming years? Scientists say these weather/temp extremes will become more common...
Last edited by teehjaeh57; 02/07/19 12:49 AM. Reason: another question
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,254 Likes: 550
|
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,254 Likes: 550 |
Snipe I am no pro but have been reading on this forum for a few years and manage 5 ponds of my own. Keep in mind those stocking rates are starting with a blank slate. No fish present when stocked. Here is the thinking, based on what I have read here on PBF and gathered from other posters, as well as some limited experience of my own. Stocking a relative small number of BG can actually lead to more fish rather than less. In some very old research papers, stocking only as few as 5 pair of BG produced enough offspring to completely provide fish to reach carrying capacity of the pond quickly. In fact, stocking more initially actually led to lower overall fish populations, the reason being the initial stocked fish became predators for newly hatched fish of the first and subsequent spawns. So the 5 pairs produced more spawned reproduction than say if the a hundred fish were initially stocked, because of lowered predation. The other thing that comes into play is the first fish stocked are usually the best growth rates the pond has to offer. Later spawns have difficulty attaining the growth rate of the initial stockers because the pond quickly reaches carrying capacity and food becomes a limiting factor. So if nice BG are desired, if you stock a small number you will have a small number of nice BG but stocking larger numbers will produce larger numbers of those quick growing nice size BG. Not sure if I explained myself very well. But low stocking numbers can actually lead to over population. Stocking correct numbers for the goal desired can start out with the correct balance desired. Those are a couple reasons I have picked up and the actual stocking numbers depend on if LMB are the main goal, BG are the main goal, balanced pond main goal, etc. In a private pond where desirable size fish are wanted in the shortest time possible, it can be looked at differently than a large public lake with different dynamics. That is just my non-professional non-expert opinion. Now the experts can give you the real answer. John, I appreciate you taking the time to expain your understanding of that scenario and I must say you've opened my eyes to something I've never really thought about and that is the fact that 99.9% of my experience is from "corrective" actions and management in an existing fishery. I have very seldom had much of an opportunity to start at zero.. With that said, I guess with my first time private pond and the research I done on my own is what led me to find this forum and why I joined.. I need to listen more and talk less! And Scott, I hope they find an answer to whats going on and you'll be on your way to fixing the issue.
Last edited by Snipe; 02/07/19 03:45 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 95 Likes: 2
|
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 95 Likes: 2 |
UPDATE- Here is what she emailed me today. I will be taking her a water sample asap.
We’re still waiting from some test results but this is what we know so far: - monogenean (parasites) infestation on gills but within what we consider normal for fish living in a pond - gills had hyperplasia (were swollen) - liver of the largest fish was pale, suggesting a systemic disease We isolated a bacteria culture from that liver. We haven’t confirmed the bacterial species yet but we should have the results soon. Overall, based on what we know so far and in my opinion, I’m leaning towards a water quality issue that is making the fish susceptible to a bacterial infection. I believe the bacteria we have is a species of Aeromonas, a typical opportunistic pathogen that doesn’t cause problems when fish are maintain in good conditions. It is unusual for this time of the year, too cold, but…. that’s what I can tell you for now. We forgot to ask you for a water sample. If you don’t mind to stop by again and bring us ~ 1 L of water, we can check it for you.
I’ll let you know the definitive diagnosis before the weekend. What type of feed are you giving them? Is it free of mold? Old? What is the protein/fat ratio. Carbohydrate percentage?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,512 Likes: 269
Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
|
Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,512 Likes: 269 |
Thanks for the update on the results so far. I think Scott has ( he should confirm) a hypertrophic pond (highly productive water). If you couple that with extensive feeding problems can arise (like running a car engine at full out for too long). Stress and heat (productivity) can result in to fast of a growth rate and liver issues. Stress allows in other vectors like described. To add to this fast temp changes lower (if this occurred) can cause lipid imbalance in fish which can lead to death. The liver is involved in lipid (fat) processing etc.
But like TJ I have not seen this where fish are in such good condition. TJ they are CNBG.
Last edited by ewest; 02/07/19 01:36 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,088 Likes: 96
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,088 Likes: 96 |
Could it be possible.........these fish are a victim of their own success?
Follow along with my thinking process and see if the logic makes sense.
TJ said those dead fish looked like they were in great condition. I agree. I would LOVE to have BG look like those (when they are alive of course, not the dead ones).
But are they really in good health condition? Or are they actually obese? Would we look at a 400# human and say "wow, what great condition and rate of gain they had?".
The fish look pretty fat to me. A certain amount of fat going into the winter is desirable for the fish to survive. But is more always better?
What if the fish were simply too fat, the fat stiffened up in extremely cold weather, and the fish muscles couldn't move so the fish suffocated?
Not saying this is the case. Just a hypothesis from a non expert.
Edit: ewest posted his reply while I was typing this post. What he said.
Last edited by snrub; 02/07/19 01:41 PM.
John
I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,512 Likes: 269
Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
|
Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,512 Likes: 269 |
Could it be possible.........these fish are a victim of their own success?
Follow along with my thinking process and see if the logic makes sense.
What if the fish were simply too fat, the fat stiffened up in extremely cold weather, and the fish muscles couldn't move so the fish suffocated?
Not saying this is the case. Just a hypothesis from a non expert. Not saying this is the case but here is some info on the process. The ability of a fish to alter its lipid composition when placed in colder water is one factor that determines survival. The death of these fish is thought to be a result of the fat that the goldfish consume or produce (Mitchell 1990). Goldfish with high concentrations of saturated body fat are less tolerant of temperature change than fish with high concentrations of unsaturated body fat. Similarly, rainbow trout Oncorhynhcus mykiss that have been fed diets high in saturated fats stiffen and die when placed in cold water (Mitchell 1990). In these fish, the fat apparently hardens in the colder water, causing the fat-impregnated muscles to stiffen and the fish to become exhausted and lose movement. This differs between species and likely between BG and CNBG.
Last edited by ewest; 02/07/19 01:48 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,758 Likes: 34
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,758 Likes: 34 |
Lots of good discussion and learning possibilities in this thread.
Scott, was there a sudden cold snap that lasted a few days to week around the event of BG dying? I don't think that would influence water temperature too much but I could mistaken especially if ice was allowed to form.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,864 Likes: 298
|
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,864 Likes: 298 |
A sharp cold snap in early October 2017 was followed by fungus infection on almost all the large CNBG at my BOW. Nothing else was affected, including smaller CNBG. My hypothesis is that large CNBG were in shallows spawning so were most vulnerable to temp change.
Didn't happen in 2018, thank goodness.
7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,799 Likes: 69
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
|
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,799 Likes: 69 |
I can't speak for Scott, but knowing him I suspect he wouldn't approach something as critical as the health of his fishery with tendencies to cut corners...so he's likely using AM, Skretting, or Optimal. The BG necropsy should yield some interesting data regarding condition of internal organs...even if it were a pellet nutrition derived issue, isn't it unusual all these fish would expire simultaneously? I fed AM exclusively for 8 years and never witnessed anything even close to this...lot's of factors must be involved per Eric leading to a kill event?
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 157
|
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 157 |
Been reading this topic and I don't have a clue as to what happened or would I even a guess. Lots of theories by a lot of smart people. Hope someone figures it out. I feel bad for Scott. He has spent a lot of time, effort and $$$$$ to have nice BG and then see that happen to them.
Nothing like seeing your bobber bobbing. 1 acre pond with LMB BG GSF BH CC and whatever else I can find Not after trophies I just like catching and eating fish Buddy R Hill
I Subscribe
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,799 Likes: 69
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
|
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,799 Likes: 69 |
Me too, BPM - but a guy like Scott will interpret this temporary setback as a direct challenge and he will likely come back with improvements to the available shoreline following drawdown and BG 3x the original size...maybe a zip-line, too. He's wired like that...I suspect a lot of us are.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,094 Likes: 1
Lunker
|
OP
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,094 Likes: 1 |
Scott...visually, your water sure looks healthy, nice phytoplanton bloom rolling and I see no evidence of excess nutrients by way of FA...and your BG are some of the finest I've ever seen, and I've seen A LOT of BG nationwide on here, in person, on BigBluegill.com etc. This is the first episode of a fishery wide lethal event targeting seemingly robust and super healthy fish that I've ever witnessed, so it's been very educational for myself and likely everyone else. I am really sorry for your situation, but considering your ability to grow amazing BG fast, it probably couldn't happen to a better guy in that respect as you'll be back at it in no time. One question...are these CNBG? If so, do you think their lower tolerance to cold water could have something to do with their susceptibility to an infection? If they are CNBG, are you considering stocking NBG to perhaps hedge your bets in case you get another polar event in the coming years? Scientists say these weather/temp extremes will become more common... tj- i took water samples to au university today so hopefully we will hear back soon. Here is kinda my guess what is happening. my pond is heavily stocked and fish are heavily fed. 2 years ago i noticed my fish didn't eat one afternoon, i got to looking and found all of them crowded in the upper end trying to get a sip of fresh water trickling in. i jumped into action and started 2 trash pumps to running and another pump that i can pull water from a nearby stream. i lost a few large bg that night, but not many. now this past summer 2018, i fertilized a few times but, didn't get a good bloom. not sure what month, but i used 30-0-0 fertilizer on my yard. a week or so later a large rain came and of course washed some in the pond. next thing you know the pond was scary green. sometime along in the summer i saw a few dead bg. i think oxygen probably got a little low. more than likely more died than i saw and got the water out of whack. i think since then it has been a snowball effect. more die and the ammonia has spiked more and more with each death. the fish are cnbg. at this point i am not sure if i will have to restock or not. i have a ton of little 1-2" bg around the shore. we are having a really warm week here so i began trying to feed a little. i see some 5-6" fish feeding, but not many. i think i have lost all of the adults, but my biggest hope is there are some left that just aren't showing themselves. possibly some too sick to eat, but might pull through. i am keeping my fingers crossed for that.
Scott Hanners
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,094 Likes: 1
Lunker
|
OP
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,094 Likes: 1 |
UPDATE- Here is what she emailed me today. I will be taking her a water sample asap.
We’re still waiting from some test results but this is what we know so far: - monogenean (parasites) infestation on gills but within what we consider normal for fish living in a pond - gills had hyperplasia (were swollen) - liver of the largest fish was pale, suggesting a systemic disease We isolated a bacteria culture from that liver. We haven’t confirmed the bacterial species yet but we should have the results soon. Overall, based on what we know so far and in my opinion, I’m leaning towards a water quality issue that is making the fish susceptible to a bacterial infection. I believe the bacteria we have is a species of Aeromonas, a typical opportunistic pathogen that doesn’t cause problems when fish are maintain in good conditions. It is unusual for this time of the year, too cold, but…. that’s what I can tell you for now. We forgot to ask you for a water sample. If you don’t mind to stop by again and bring us ~ 1 L of water, we can check it for you.
I’ll let you know the definitive diagnosis before the weekend. What type of feed are you giving them? Is it free of mold? Old? What is the protein/fat ratio. Carbohydrate percentage? i use purina aquamax 600. always ordered fresh. i have fed a little optimal from time to time. in the peak of feeding season my feeder goes off 4 times a day. also i usually walk down there in the evening and hand feed a little just to watch them.
Scott Hanners
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,094 Likes: 1
Lunker
|
OP
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,094 Likes: 1 |
Lots of good discussion and learning possibilities in this thread.
Scott, was there a sudden cold snap that lasted a few days to week around the event of BG dying? I don't think that would influence water temperature too much but I could mistaken especially if ice was allowed to form. here in alabama we rarely see ice form on a pond. cold snaps for us are upper 20's for a night time low for a few days and then back to 40 and 50 degree nights. we do go through spells for a week or so where we will have frost every morning. it was 80 here today.
Scott Hanners
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,094 Likes: 1
Lunker
|
OP
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,094 Likes: 1 |
Been reading this topic and I don't have a clue as to what happened or would I even a guess. Lots of theories by a lot of smart people. Hope someone figures it out. I feel bad for Scott. He has spent a lot of time, effort and $$$$$ to have nice BG and then see that happen to them. you are right about all the effort put into growing these big bg. the only thing i didn't do is remove enough along the way. i keep more than we can eat int he freezer, but i don't think that was enough. it is rare that people ask me to fish here. i invite people often, but people just aren't into fishing like they used to be. no one wants to take them home to clean and eat. people are too busy, lazy, or interested in other hobbies.
Scott Hanners
|
|
|
Moderated by Bill Cody, Bruce Condello, catmandoo, Chris Steelman, Dave Davidson1, esshup, ewest, FireIsHot, Omaha, Sunil, teehjaeh57
|
|