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Hey everyone,

So as some of you know I stocked my bass in June 2017 and there first year in the pond they where growing great and looking like pigs, as you can see from the photo below which was taken last December. Well this month I did a sampling and they are way skinnier, some even with sunken bellys. Why is this? is this normal for Juvenal bass to lose weight going on there teenage years before they become mature fish? All the CNBG are doing great due to a feeding program and the adults are hand size and bigger, though few of them spawned shallow, most spawned in 8ft of water. I didnt have a giant spawn of CNBG but it was pretty good. The main forage in the pond is CNBG and minnows along the bank.I have now grass in the pond only hard structure like pallets, logs, and some sunken christmas trees. What do you think I can do to start getting weight back on my bass? feel free to ask any question to get a better back ground.


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I can't imagine what is taking place to go from THAT to skinny...unless they ran out of suitable size forage. By the way you talk, that doesn't seem to be the issue unless there are just WAY too many in that same size group.

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Get some WR measurements and report back. Per Kenny underperforming LMB typically due to lack of appropriate forage size - you can help the forage base by installing some dense shallow cover to help escape predation or cull low WR LMB or both.


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" I didnt have a giant spawn of CNBG but it was pretty good."

I misread this part.. I read it as you DID have a giant spawn..If it was just "ok", probably lack sufficient numbers of forage. Agree whole-heartedly with TJ, need some dense cover to protect larger numbers for higher recruitment and it may be such now that you will need to remove some of those bass. This is the hard part of "playing catch-up".. Got to get CNBG recruitment back up to support LMB growth. Now that I've typed that, depending on WR of present fish, it may be best to plan on pulling some bass out because you can't make up for lost efficiency/lack of forage, you never achieve maximum total growth potential. The chain on this year class has been broken to some extent. Reporting WR of current LMB will be very important in determining the next step.

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I'm thinking the lack of abundant edible sized forage is cause for lower WR as skinnier bass. The skinnier bass should also not have grown a lot in length - correct? How many bass have you collected for your sample? It is possible you are sampling slow growing males?

Likely the plump bass basically ate all the abundant preferred sizes of forage in the lower structure habitat. Fast growing bass 'cleaned up' on the main initial crop of forage items. This is a common problem in new ponds; fast initial growth, then a noticeable slow down. Now, many of the CNBC are too big to eat and remaining forage is too small of sizes to allow higher body weights and continued fast growth of the LMB.

For followers of your project refer us back to you original post with the link for your baseline information.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/01/19 03:42 PM.

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So what should he do Mr. Cody? Others are in this same situation.


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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Get some WR measurements and report back. Per Kenny underperforming LMB typically due to lack of appropriate forage size - you can help the forage base by installing some dense shallow cover to help escape predation or cull low WR LMB or both.



This helped me year before last when my pond was two yrs old. An E survey in March showed few bg in the 2 to 3" range. It was suggested to me to add shoreline cover because I did not have any vegetation and we added 25 lbs of fhm's tp take some of the pressure off the cnbg fry. And then the first of June I had lots and lots of cnbg in the desired size. I am planning on replicating the same thing this year.


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Originally Posted By: Dinsmoreoutdoors
Hey everyone,

. . . All the CNBG are doing great due to a feeding program and the adults are hand size and bigger, though few of them spawned shallow, most spawned in 8ft of water. I didnt have a giant spawn of CNBG but it was pretty good. The main forage in the pond is CNBG and minnows along the bank.I have now grass in the pond only hard structure like pallets, logs, and some sunken christmas trees. What do you think I can do to start getting weight back on my bass? feel free to ask any question to get a better back ground.


It sounds like your BOW is at carrying capacity and filled with CNBG that are too large for your initial stockers to eat. You have some choices but you must make the BOW more amenable to the production of 0 year CNBG.


1. Create space for CNBG YOY. This can be done by harvesting large CNBG. You can also add more structure which will increase habitat and food for young BG with the benefit of providing cover for them.

2. Increase fertility (fertilization or feed). Just another way make more space for the BG. Just keep in mind that this capacity will be filled quickly and predominantly consumed by larger CNBG.

3. Diversify the food chain to use unconverted primary production. TP and TFS are possible additions. This doesn't make more space for BG but they should contribute more forage than the CNBG forage you sacrifice.

4. Reduce competition among the LMB. Harvest is your only option that will reduce competition. You haven't stated your goal with regard to the LMB or what the ultimate sustainable objective will be.

I think the fastest way to get back on track is a combination of CNBG harvest and LMB culling which should be focused on male LMB. I say fastest because the reduced competition will be immediate and the CNBG will respond by spawning just as soon as the space is available and temperatures are sufficient. So, I think you should be doing these fishing efforts now so that you will get the benefit of the full growing season next year.


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I would not harvest your largest BG - I'd preserve them for angling diversity...other recommendations are sound.


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Suggestions above for improving RW of the now skinny LMB are sound. Reread and affirm them. Corrections or solutions to thin bodied bass (predators) have been talked about a lot in past posts. I do not recall the specifics of dinsmoreoutdoors' initial pond stocking which is important to fixing his 'problem' and why I did not provide a lot of details.

General advice. Firstly make sure of or reaffirm the fishery goals. When you have too many slow growing thin bodied predators and you want fast growing, bigger predators the most obvious fix is reduce the predator numbers, then work on improving forage numbers and maintaining adequate numbers of all proper sizes of forage based on the predator size structure population desired.

It is not a good idea to money whip it by just adding more forage. It is a good idea to read the recent PB article Nov-Dec 2018 pg 28 by D.Beasley: "Thinking Past the Obvious". In the article he tells us to know the cause and effect of the problem "manage the entire ecosystem" for getting at the real fix.

I would add quite a bit dense cover habitat that can be removed when needed to achieve fewer forage and better RW. Ideal amount of dense shoreline cover, edge to 6ft deep, is supposed to be 20%-25% of the shoreline length which is one whole shoreline of a square pond. Keep in mind most tree branch twigs quickly decompose in 1-2-3 yrs. Also keep in mind that the dense cover will also allow good survival of YOY bass which will happen in 2018!.

If one is really serious about growing premium sport fish you should have some sort of forage pond without predators to mitigate unforeseen shortages of forages to keep the predators growing while your adjust predator density.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/01/19 04:30 PM.

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The situation is currently a crisis if dinsmoreoutdoors wants large LMB. Without immediate intervention, it will be a trophy BG BOW and be in a situation where the LMB are vastly overpopulated. Knowing nothing about the initial stocking, I have to wonder if he might have stocked more than 100 LMB/acre initially.


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I looked back at Dinsmore's pre-bass stocking situation:
Quote:

""The pond is 1acre and has only FHM, CNBG, and 3 dozen shiners. The CNBG where stocked in Dec and there are 18 adult CNBG and the FHM have been in over a year. There are thousands of new CNBG and FHM hacthlings from this year all over the pond. Plan on ordering 80 bass thinking I should have 50 or so make it to next year. Do ya have any advice to give on introducing new 2.5 inch bass fingerlings to a new pond?"" Bass stocking was ""So Wednesday I got my order from Suttles fish farm for 80 large mouth bass!! they are around 2- 2.5" and where in great shape! they where jumping all in the bag wanting to get into there new home. They are pellet trained so I released them by my feeder hoping some will be near by to know when it goes off and get some food. Since I have a daily feeding program for all my forage fish, im hoping that my bass will be a lil over a pound this time next year!""

In his pond with "thousands of new CNBG & FHM it is pretty obvious most of those 80 LMB survived. Now he will have to deal with a new crop of LMB in this spring's spawn which will be happening soon in Florida.

Since the stocker bass were pellet trained and if he is still pellet feeding the fish, there should still be some plump pellet eating bass present. If bass are eating pellets, I wonder if he has tried the Aquamax or similar brand of bass pellets to maintain bass body weight?

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/01/19 04:22 PM.

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Thanks Bill, that provides a lot of additional context. There was a large crop of CNBG YOY last year when the LMB were stocked and this year CNBG YOY production is way down. Last year survivors of CNBG grew very well but there must be a great many of last years CNBG surviving that are >6" long. I think a change of food is a good idea but now more than before I think I would try to remove 50-100 lbs/acre of the 6 to 8 in bluegill.


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I know squat about feed trained LMB, but as they grow, shouldn't the fish food volume be increased accordingly? If not, won't they decline the same as if they were feeding on natural forage? LMB sharing pellets with a booming CNBG population could easily spread calories way too thin for both species.

Maybe feeder watching, and determining what the primary diet of the LMB would be an easy starting point. Trying Bill's Aquamax LMB food suggestion would be my first stab at this.


Also, I've never raised LMB in my hatchery pond, that despite huge hand stocked forage bases, didn't still have both runts and super stars. I wouldn't think ponds aren't any different.

Last edited by FireIsHot; 01/01/19 05:55 PM.

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The pond does need adult CNBG for spawning especially since this spring's crop in the shallows "had a few spawners". Maybe removing a significant number of largest CNBG is not wise? The cause for lack of lots of YOY CNBG should be investigated and corrected for the 2019 spawn. He should determine about what percentage of LMB are eating or trying to eat pellets.

I trust he is working to get us some RW (WR) values and a picture of a couple of the thin bodied bass so readers can learn from his project. This is a classic example of growth "hitting the wall" for new stocker bass.

He should be cautious in his smaller pond (1ac) and angling as to minimize creating hook smart bass. How to do that I am not real sure. One idea would be to fish for short periods a week or two apart, remove every bass caught until a target is achieved then,,, throw that particular and color lure away!

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I wonder if removing the larger class BG could result in earlier sexual maturity and spawning of the more numerous next smaller class BG? Could this result in an actual increase in the small BG population over what the current large BG produce?

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Would prolific tilapia be a benefit? They will live year round in FL which would have pros and cons.


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I wonder if removing the larger class BG could result in earlier sexual maturity and spawning of the more numerous next smaller class BG? Could this result in an actual increase in the small BG population over what the current large BG produce?


I think this is likely.

Just something to think about. It isn't a static situation. Its not the standing weight that is feeding the LMB. It is the production. If a BOW is at carrying capacity for BG and there is little mortality of the older BG then there will be very little production of YOY BG. Swingle noted that when BG prey isn't in good supply the male BG consume the eggs and spawns fail. On the other hand if the carrying capacity exceeds the standing weight considerably, the BG will breed prolifically and fry survival is improved (due to reduced BG competition and BG predation of fry). If LMB are cropping these YOY as they reach 2" then the BG can produce multiple crops/spawns because the space for the YOY remains available.


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Good point Al and Bill - high quality LMB feed is critical to LMB growth [Skretting and Optimal are two I use regularly with success], and as the fish grow supplemental feedings will need to increase or expect more pressure on the forage base.


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I can see removing a few dozen of the largest CNBG but ultimately I believe you need more dense habitat in that 1-5' range. I also don't want to beat a dead horse either but not "seeing" your pond or having an idea as to how much dense structure you have now, I think we need to be careful of removing ANY fish until the actual problem is found.
If the carrying capacity of the pond has been reached in it's current state then adding any other fish makes no sense to me. What DOES make sense is to find out how much shallow, dense habitat we have?

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Agree.

For the record, in a small BOW like this I'd recommend 25-35 LMB/acre if goal was trophy LMB, maybe up to 50/acre for SMB. Per Cody, watch the angling pressure, hookshy fish are a reality.


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Originally Posted By: TGW1
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Get some WR measurements and report back. Per Kenny underperforming LMB typically due to lack of appropriate forage size - you can help the forage base by installing some dense shallow cover to help escape predation or cull low WR LMB or both.



This helped me year before last when my pond was two yrs old. An E survey in March showed few bg in the 2 to 3" range. It was suggested to me to add shoreline cover because I did not have any vegetation and we added 25 lbs of fhm's tp take some of the pressure off the cnbg fry. And then the first of June I had lots and lots of cnbg in the desired size. I am planning on replicating the same thing this year.


I forgot to mention we removed 50-7" cnbg as we added the shoreline cover. The were not the largest cnbg in the pond but the pond had a lot of cnbg in that size range.


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If the pond is at carrying capacity (most new ponds reach CC in 18-24 mths) after stocking then you manage what is there. That can take many methods including stocking to replace extra harvested fish, extra harvest of different sizes , population adjustment and more.
















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Dinsmooreoutdoors, I'd chime in here, but before so, offer more data. Give us lengths and weights of at least 30 bass.

Tell us about your feeding program, since you stocked feed-trained fish. That photo suggests a well-fed bass that eats fish food and abundant amounts of forage fish. Which feed are you using, how much and how often?

What's the habitat like? What percentage of your pond has structure and cover? What types?

This will help these guys offer good advice. One photo and a brief description only leads to speculation.


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Where is Dinsmore out catchin fish while we 'thrash' this?
I wonder if it is practical for him to sample 30 bass in his one acre? Plus this could put a significant risk for making hook smart bass plus what hook shyness they already have developed.

If all the 80 stocker bass survived then collecting 30 is 37% of the population and if 50 of the 80 stockers survived, collecting 30 is 60% of the population. Are there any statisticians out there? How many of 80 are needed to get a good (significiant) sample?

Al Gore's internet is amazing - LOL.
I went to a metrics sampling website and found:
If we sample 30 as suggested by Lusk then we get a 14% sampling error.
If we have a population of 80 bass and we sample 10 bass then at the 95% confidence level there is 29% error of our evaluation.
If we have a population of 80 and sample 5 bass we get a 42% error at the 95% confidence accuracy level.


If we have only 50 bass and sample 5 we get a 42% error.

Reference used, however there are other sites.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/sample-size-calculator/

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/02/19 02:41 PM.

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