Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
presta24, Troutguy1, PrePond24, Misty Hathaway, Julia
17,718 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics39,673
Posts539,915
Members17,719
Most Online3,583
Jan 15th, 2020
Top Posters
esshup 26,625
ewest 20,961
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 14,227
Who's Online Now
19 members (Theo Gallus, Zep, DrLuke, Omaha, teehjaeh57, Kyle Sichting, Just Dave, Sunil, hermit, RAH, catscratch, FishinRod, RStringer, tylerd1994, Barracuda J, LANGSTER, jludwig, Bobbss, Troutguy1), 343 guests, and 150 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
W
OP Offline
W
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
There is a slope so a dam can be built. All dirt to remain onsite. avg 8ft deep 3:1 slope

Last edited by wannapond0001; 12/20/18 10:10 AM.
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,381
Likes: 125
R
RAH Online Content
Lunker
Online Content
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,381
Likes: 125
I can't estimate the time, but I built a 1/2 acre pond with a JD 550G dozer. It took a lot longer than I could imagine, and I had a JD 410E backhoe as well. So much depends on the topography, soil types, and water infiltration (as well as the operator). I hit springs which kept flowing in the driest weather and required me to trench in a drainage pipe to the bottom (still stayed wet at the bottom). As a disclaimer, I was learning to use the equipment during this build. I also took great care with the clay core and liner using a sheep's foot roller which has worked out great for me; tight as a drum all last summer. Good luck!

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
W
OP Offline
W
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
I asked because a less experienced individual was quoting me with a jd450y rental. Not too keen on his pond building skills. I will probably pass.

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 8
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 8
Originally Posted By: wannapond0001
I asked because a less experienced individual was quoting me with a jd450y rental. Not too keen on his pond building skills. I will probably pass.


If you try to build and compact with a dozer alone the dam will probably leak, at least for a couple of years, even if it's pure clay.

At least have heavy wheeled equipment, such as a large heavy tractor with loaded bucket to drive over and compact each layer. That's what we did with my second pond, and its dam seeped a little but stopped leaking after about 10 months.

Mine's about the size and depth the OP mentioned, and it took three days with a Case 650K dozer and large Case backhoe, with the dozer operating full time and the backhoe as needed. Two operators.

We used the backhoe also to distribute the stockpiled topsoil to the back of the dam at the end, then spread it with the dozer. It's been two years now, and the backside of the dam has great grass, thanks to the deep topsoil layer.

Last edited by John Fitzgerald; 12/20/18 12:57 PM.
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
W
OP Offline
W
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
I tell them to include a compactor in the quote.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,186
Likes: 72
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,186
Likes: 72
Don’t know your level of experience. If it were me, and it’s not, I would buy Mike Otto’s book Just Add Water”.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
W
OP Offline
W
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
I keep seeing that book being mentioned. I had a guy come out and he builds ponds only. He actually does core trenches, and of course his quote is going to be 7-10k. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm sure it'll be in the middle. For that kind of money for a tiny pond, I'm going to wait for the first guy that wanted to dig it for 5500. Both own their equipment. I will not ever go with someone that needs to rent.

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,034
Likes: 74
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,034
Likes: 74
Hard to say for me.

But some things help. If the dozer has a ripper that can be a BIG help. We have a D6N XL that I have used to clean out three ponds, build a 3 acre pond as well as a couple small sediment and forage ponds plus more lately a one acre pond. Never had a ripper on the back for any of them.

Bought a ripper for it because we had a number of terraces to build and running the ripper at the depth of the cut makes controlling the blade a lot easier, especially in clay.

Boy howdy. I wish we would have bought that ripper before digging all those ponds. In clay with good working moisture it does not make as much difference (although still helps a lot) but get in some clay that is on the dry side of working good and the ripper about doubles the dozer productivity. Even loading a scraper in really hard dirt can be facilitated by running the ripper just deep enough so the cutting edge stays on solid ground but the ground is ripped enough to make loading go faster.

In hard ground, the ripper saves a lot of wear and tear on both the dozer AND operator because the dozer can do a steady push of soil instead of the jerking and gouging that goes on with really tough, dry clay.

So if you have a choice in rental machines, I would take one with a ripper on the back over one without any day. The smaller the dozer, the more difference having looser soil to work with makes. On a 450 a ripper would help a lot.

Pushing out a hole in the ground is only about half the job. Where the time consumption comes in is properly compacting the dam and finishing out things. It is kind of like building a house. The frame work goes up fast. It is finishing the rest of it that takes forever.

Last edited by snrub; 12/21/18 08:40 AM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
W
OP Offline
W
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
I can see how a ripper would help. I wonder if a smaller machine with rippers would be as good as the larger without? I am still searching..

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,034
Likes: 74
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,034
Likes: 74
Hard to say but horsepower and weight is always helpful up to the point the machine gets too big to work in the desiginated area.

I would definitely choose a 650 without a ripper over a 450 with a ripper for the same money any day of the week. Even a 550 in hopes the pushing would be favorable over unfavorable.

450 is a pretty small machine. On my 3 acre pond a D7 or even a D6R would have been a better choice had I been a contractor doing the work. But we used what we had and even our little D6N will get a lot of work done if you keep after it.

Heck if you see some of the public works projects done with some of the old machines they used (or even horses and slips before that) you can do a lot with a small machine if you stay after it.

If you have the choice of getting a smaller machine for a lower cost per hour or a larger machine at a higher cost per hour, the larger machine will almost always be the better choice up to the size of machine that will fit in your hole. A late model D7 class machine will build a quarter acre pond in a heartbeat.
(although there is no need for you to even check on that size machine for your job). A JD 450 you will be at it a few days, depending on how thourough you do the job of compaction and how much dirt you have to move.

My D6N XL is about the perfect size machine for a quarter acre pond although it will build smaller or bigger. I would not be afraid of sitting on a D7 on a quarter acre pond although the rental prices of those are probably through the roof because even the moving of the machine gets expensive unless it is for agricultural use. And they probably would not let anyone but a professional operator run it. A D6R is a lot bigger machine than a D6N. An old D7 is about the size of my D6N. The newer diff steer or hydrostat machines are a lot faster cycling and steer better under load than the older clutch steer machines.

Edit: for comparison I think my D6N XL would be somewhere near comparable in weight and horsepower to a JD 700K although the 700K is hydrostat and newer. It is definitely bigger than a 650K.

Last edited by snrub; 12/21/18 09:34 AM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
W
OP Offline
W
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
What do you think of an older '92 D4H with 300 hours on the undercarriage? It was 24k on craigslist. 7000 hours.

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,381
Likes: 125
R
RAH Online Content
Lunker
Online Content
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,381
Likes: 125
Originally Posted By: wannapond0001
I will not ever go with someone that needs to rent.


My first pond was built by an experienced pond builder who rented really big equipment to supplement his smaller machines. He built a great pond fast and on budget. He rented a very large excavator and off-road dump truck.

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
W
OP Offline
W
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
I've found that the ones that don't own equipment have less pond building experience. At least your pond builder own some equipment.

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 8
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 8
I wonder how fast a Cat D11T could build a 1/4 acre pond? I bet it would take longer to unload and load it than the construction time.

The larger dozers are so much trouble to move, they are usually used only on long term projects like new multi mile sections of multi lane roads, mines, and huge developments. On the 40 plus mile interstate highway 540/I49 project completed near here in 1999, there were several D9G dozers being used for the huge cuts and fills through the Boston Mountains. I mountain biked with a buddy of mine on weekends (when they weren't working) through that project, and we were amazed at the size of some of the equipment.

Last edited by John Fitzgerald; 12/21/18 03:47 PM.
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 352
G
Offline
G
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 352
If I couldn't find a suitable contractor and was tasked with digging my own ¼ acre pond, I'd probably rent a dozer, or a trackhoe, depending on the design of the pond, and the placement of the excavated material. A dozer will move an equal amount of dirt over a distance far quicker than a trackhoe will.

If for some reason I couldn't find a suitable rental, and I just had to buy a used machine to build a ¼ acre pond, I'd probably choose a backhoe over a tracked machine. Of course, it'd take longer to dig the pond, and I'd want to carefully plan my attack in regards to proceeding in and out with the machine, and the possibility of having to drain rainwater. But, not having to worry about the time constraints of a rental would allow me to work at my leisure, and I'm all about leisure.

A backhoe is far more versatile than a tracked machine, and can be used for numerous other tasks on the property. Backhoes are less expensive to haul, maintain, and repair, plus if it does break down, chances are, I can actually tow it back to the house to work on it. And when I'm finished with the backhoe, it'll likely be much easier to sell than would a tracked machine.

Disclaimer: The above is merely my opinion, which has been formed after witnessing, and hearing other horror stories of the 'joys' of bulldozer ownership. lol

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 8
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 8
It will take a large 4WD wheeled backhoe to build a 1/4 acre pond in a reasonable time. Those are not easy to haul either, some weighing 20,000 lbs. A small dozer would be very useful in that situation, with a rear ripper, to dig, level, and finish. The backhoe with loaded bucket could be used for compacting the dam as it's built up. We used both a Case 650K dozer and a large Case backhoe to do my two 1/4 acre ponds.

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,034
Likes: 74
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,034
Likes: 74
Originally Posted By: wannapond0001
What do you think of an older '92 D4H with 300 hours on the undercarriage? It was 24k on craigslist. 7000 hours.


Man I don't have a clue. Sounds kind of high but it all depends on condition. If it has also had major engine and transmission work it might be worth it but if not could be a money pit too. Just have to get on some of the on line construction machinery places and auctions to see where current market is at. They don't make a machine that small in high track style any more. Probably because too expensive to manufacture. The small ones (conventional track frame) are now made overseas I believe.


John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
W
OP Offline
W
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
I've rebuilt many engines, an old case diesel too. Can fix most things. Not afraid of old equipment. I've rebuilt a Case from engine to cylinders.

In any case, I'd rather not hire someone that's going to rent equipment but I just talked to a guy that seems to know what he's doing and charges 40/hr. He'd take down a bunch of trees too. I'd have to pay for the rentals though. In the end I'd get a slightly larger pond.
What do you guys think?

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,075
Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,075
I'll offer this with respect to hiring a guy that needs to rent the equipment....I would be more interested in his experience level than whether he owns his own equipment. It could be the guy has worked for someone else for years, has tons of experience and is now going out on his own but lacks the finances to own his own equipment, YET....To me, it all comes down to how good the guy is and not how much he owns. IMO GET REFERENCES and check them out, no matter who you hire.


[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,602
Likes: 79
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,602
Likes: 79
Agree with Bill and ditto on the references

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
W
OP Offline
W
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
I do like the comfort in knowing that I won't lose any money if he doesn't finish in a timely manner or some other unknown issue comes up. I can see it now where he'd need more time and there goes more rental time. That's my main reason for wanting to hire someone that owns their own equipment and doesn't ask for a huge amount ahead of time. I had 2 wells drilled for geo and they didn't ask for a dime until it was done.

As for references, I honestly think anyone can fake a good reference.

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 8
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 8
I would never hire a contractor who wanted pay in advance for a short job. If he doesn't have enough cash flow to do a one week job and wait until the end, he has bigger problems, and probably no money to maintain his equipment.

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 352
G
Offline
G
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 352
A lot of contractors, large and small, rent their heavy equipment. And it's usually fairly new and dependable equipment............ When you hire a contractor you're basically renting their equipment anyhow, so it might as well be new equipment which is backed by a service department.

Also, It might pay to be cautious when hiring someone to run equipment that you've rented, because if they maliciously or negligently break something, You'll be liable for the cost of repair.

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
W
OP Offline
W
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 184
Well the highest quote is 9k and I don't need to rent him equipment. It'll be slightly over 1/4 if I go with him. I will probably go with the hourly guy and set my limit at 6k with a rental.

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 8
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 8
I would get more bids. My newer 1/4 acre pond 8 feet deep cost less than 2.8K in December 2016. I could have a one acre pond built here for 9k.

Last edited by John Fitzgerald; 12/24/18 02:40 PM.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
CityDad, DiamondDave, the stick
Recent Posts
Neat gate for certain situations
by Zep - 05/19/22 01:03 PM
redesigning small pond overflow
by Sunil - 05/19/22 12:53 PM
Happy Birthday CityDad!
by Sunil - 05/19/22 12:25 PM
1.1 acre pond in middle tennesse
by LANGSTER - 05/19/22 12:22 PM
A new pond journal.. lets see where we go!
by FishinRod - 05/19/22 11:10 AM
Help identify and treat
by Bill Cody - 05/19/22 11:02 AM
What did you do at your pond today?
by esshup - 05/19/22 10:47 AM
Red shiner growers note..
by FishinRod - 05/19/22 10:36 AM
Feeding and Conversion
by anthropic - 05/18/22 11:09 PM
Phosphorus content of fish
by Snipe - 05/18/22 10:45 PM
Pond Scum
by snrub - 05/18/22 10:12 PM
Air line question.
by Bill Cody - 05/18/22 07:50 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
pond 6
pond 6
by Stressless, May 10
Molly Ann surveys her new Puppydom
Molly Ann surveys her new Puppydom
by Mongos Pond, January 28
Fry
Fry
by CityDad, January 20
Baldcypress
Baldcypress
by Stressless, January 11
Still active
Still active
by Shorty, December 15
Using FishMap
Using FishMap
by Stressless, December 9

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5