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Wow!! Can't believe the wealth of information here.
I'm new to the forums here and just wanted to express my thanks to Bill Cody for a big part of my inspiration to build my new smallie pond.
I finished construction of my 3/4 acre pond mid summer this year and stocked Fatheads about 4 months ago and followed with yellow perch, redear and smallmouth about 90 days ago and just finished a 7 day trap net set that produced some amazing results in such a short period of time.
My issue here in NW KS is the very fine sandy loam soil type. I had to use soda ash as a sealing agent due to less than 3% clay particulates and I'm worried about water clarity issues long term for the SMB.. This pond is fed by well water through a 2" main run down on top of bottom seal with a riser to act as an augmentor if needed.
I stocked my SMB after about 2 months of fathead spawning and at 90 days, my SMB went from an average of 55mm to an average of 114mm for the sample. My largest was 141mm (about 5.5"). My SMB sample was relatively small at only 9 fish so maybe I'm ok but I noted my Redear went from ave 60mm to 135mm and yellow perch 95mm to 210mm ave. I have very minimal aquatic vegetation but literally several hundred ton of rock substrate in the form of large concrete chunk, 2-5" rock/rubble down to pea gravel. WR's of the SMB were low (90-ish) on the larger specimens to around 140 on the smaller fish sampled. Granted some of this could be my WR formulas were meant for 150mm + SMB. I'm hoping time will show a better sample of SMB but I'm wondering if water clarity is more of an issue than I think??
Disk reading has varied from 18" to 30" at the clearest.
If someone would have any suggestions, I'm very open to ideas.. I know this system is extremely young but the excitement is hard to hold back.

Last edited by Snipe; 08/11/19 08:19 PM.
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Welcome to the club Snipe, it sounds like you will fit in very well here with your obvious excitement regarding the hobby. It sounds like you are experiencing the great benefits of the great FHM...keep up the good work!


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Welcome to the forum.

I'm in the opposite corner of Kansas and stocked SMB last December. I already have recruitment with lots of 4-6" YOY SMB.

Good luck and keep us informed on progress.


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You'll be fine with SMB with 18-30" readings. I have a great SMB pond and that's about where my readings are.

Keep us updated.


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Thanks guys. looking fwd to this!
snrub, I read some of your crawfish info and noted your location, I lived just outside of Asbury, MO for 8 yrs right on the Spring river.. Very good times fishing down in your neck of the woods.
Your area fisheries biologist is a friend of mine, hope those folks are good to you there!

Last edited by Snipe; 10/26/18 07:16 PM.
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Originally Posted By: snrub
Welcome to the forum.

I'm in the opposite corner of Kansas and stocked SMB last December. I already have recruitment with lots of 4-6" YOY SMB.

Good luck and keep us informed on progress.

What size fish did you stock originally??

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I paid for some 6-9" fish and some 4-6" fish. I would say of the 6-9" fish I bought a lot of them tended toward 9" and in the 4-6" lot a lot of them tended towards the 4". There could have been some 10" or greater. Jerry Hartley said all the fish were from the same brood pond. The difference in size was the difference in how well the fish took to feed. I have found the same thing in my YOY SMB. The ones that are aggressive towards pellets and get on feed grow fast and the others not so much. When the water is clear enough I can see which ones are feeding and which ones are not.

So I would assume it was some of the largest fish that spawned the next spring. I have lots of 4-5" SMB now I can see and catch around the edges of my my RES/SMB pond. Or at least I could catch them back when the water was warmer. Now they mostly just look at or ignore my bait since the water has cooled and become exceptionally clear. I had so many I caught thirty or more and are growing them in another pond I have without large predators.

Here is a picture of one of the recruits that I transferred to my forage pond. . SMB 2018 recruit

Last edited by snrub; 10/27/18 09:09 AM.

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Ok, going to try my luck at posting pics.. Hope it's not too boring!
This pond is an experiment that we've been working on the idea of for a couple of years. I have 2 Biologist from KDWP watching my progress closely as redear and SMB in particular are not know to succeed in this area. Yellow perch, well, we have no data in our area either, so this is going to be fun! I'm in the very early stages with this and I'm sure there will be bumps along the way.
First pic is pond right after seal was finished..

2nd is pic of SMB at stocking (2")..

Next is SMB from net sample 85 days later.

Stocker RES..

Sample RES at 85 days..


Stocker Yellow perch..

85 days after..

Hope this works!

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That YP looks fabulous! Gaining weight and great color! I think YP are going to be a winner in your area. Please spread the word that this is a very worth while consideration for a fish that is easily pellet trained, fun for kids to catch, and awesome table fare!

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Thanks for the great report. Your fish are growing very nicely. Good job getting started. Next year's fishery report will add lots of good information for others learning from your fish stocking combination experiment. Return to this specific thread in STOCKING A NEW POND Types of Fish to Choose for future updates to document your pond's progress.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/29/18 09:46 AM.

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Thought I would come back and add a few notes to this.
As my water temps are near 70, I've noticed activity has really picked up. Last week I noticed a small, light colored area that I thought was a 12-16" piece of concrete coming into view. The next afternoon I seen 2 more and came to the conclusion they were Redear Beds! I have 1 lone dish right beside a "TJ" smb nest structure that I believe is too big to be a RES so I think it's a smb.
As I have been feeding the last 3 weeks in the open pond I've noticed I have several of my feed trained YP showing up on a regular basis and the last 4-5 days they have brought a few guests, being some MUCH larger perch and a few smaller perch that were not part of my feed training. I've not seen a SMB take feed yet, nor a RES-and don't really expect to see RES but have seen where some folks see smb taking feed.
I seen my first fry of the summer FHM's about 5 days ago. I can take my fine mesh 3' net and run it for about 3-4' along the rocks and catch about (guessing here) several thousand FHM from fry to about an inch. I occasionally get a few small 1 to 1-1/2" YP in the fry net but never any of the 3-4" size.
I'm hoping to see some SMB fry but not sure my fish are sexually mature and somewhat expected them to spawn next year but we'll see.
My GSH are quite abundant and extremely high numbers of obviously gravid females-most seem to be in the 4-5-1/2" size range.
I find I'm still somewhat impatient but continue to tell myself anything good takes time to produce!
I've noticed a few patches of Sago pond weed starting to build and a very few cattails. Seems like what I believe to be eel grass is popping up in a spot or 2 so things are changing.
You guys with RES and SMB have any insight on when to expect to find YOY of both species I'd love to hear your thoughts.

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Nice report Kenny. Your SMB should be bedding now or very soon...been a late year for us up here and my water is pretty stained due to runoff...not sure I'll be collecting many SMB fry this year.

You'll see male SMB bedding anywhere from 2-6' depths, and a week or so later notice schools of dark black tadpole looking fry with the same male close by trying to protect them somewhere near the bed location. These are not tadpoles, they are YOY SMB and very easy to net provided you have a fine mesh head.

Consider keeping on top of the cattails...they are a preferred forage item for 'skrats - I nuke every one I see as I already have rat issues. Cattails respond readily to glyphosate - I use the Schillig "glove of death" method to avoid product drift into the water. Glove and a little section of sponge and up the leaves you go. Get em now while they're growing, tubers are vulnerable to herbicides but won't be once they're mature....then you'll only kill the leaves.


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An update for this..


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Oh man Congrats on the progress. I'm know expert at all but those are looking good. Those suckers are growing pretty good.


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I am interested to follow this as I learn about species diversity. Growing up in Oklahoma, most ponds are some sort combination of BG, RES, LMB, and CC.

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A couple more add-ons..





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Verified Gambusia present in relatively good numbers (never stocked any). No water source within 14 miles and no FHM stockings since August of last summer.

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Where did the BG come from? Over time I would be worried that your SMB won't be able to keep BG recruitment under control. Those RES are looking good!



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BG Males only stocked. No females present-so far..
Hopefully my single HBG doesn't throw me a curve with future generations..

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A bit of a surprise last night..


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So what kind of fish is that last one?


61 acre water shed lake. bass, channel cat, black crappie, wiper, walleye, redear sunfish, blue catfish and bluegill. To many bullhead and common carp
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Tilapia!


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Check out the bellies on those RES!

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If big bellies are good, I should be reincarnated as a RES.

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8lbs of biomass removed..


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I'm so lost...I thought your BOW was literally brand new and you've got BG, CC, and TP??? You've also already got some macrophytes growing [Sago].

So many questions: Why did you stock BG? What size were they to accurately determine gender? You know how many times I've made just one mistake the last several years and had to drain, seine and nuke and start over???? You're livin' on the edge crazy man!

When did you stock TP, and why? Are they keeping up with FA? This is news to me.

Can't believe you already have macrophytes established...typically this is year 2 or 3 in the Midwest. That's GREAT, but I'm dumbfounded!

What in the hell is an 8 lb CC doing in your brand new pond?

HBG?

I feel like I don't even know you anymore.

PS: Those RES are so AWESOME!!!!! Optimal Jr?



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grin=TJ!!!
BG (30) were added this summer early at about 4"-all verified males..
Tilapia were stocked (40 4-6", 50 2-3") first week of June to help control FA or my suspicions of what was to come (and it did). Sago came on strong after adding some shoots about May 1.. 20-some hardy lilies started, some bull rushes, arrowhead and some real nice APW.
BTW, Tilapia are NOT keeping up.
Verified SMB recruitment about 2 weeks ago and the cats were put in (10) to control tiger salamander larval stage, I've removed 6 cats now. Drill a 1/16" hole through a piece of Optimal bass, thread line through, tie to #8 hook, chuck and wait.. :-))
P.S. Opti Jr, yes..
I put the cats in before any forage was stocked well over a year ago, Tigers will blow up in a ditch with water over night here. I had no clue the cats would be so hard to remove and no, the cats were not 8lbs when put in.. 3, maybe 3.5 so eating something but every one I've removed is full of algae, can't find even a bone in stomach contents.

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Update: After a couple of nights of soaking and saturating the ground, the big one came last nigh, algae clogged drain pipe and water breached dam. Don't know how much flow-through I had but I'd say all of it 3 times.
I now have a boat with a 6hp outboard on bottom somewhere with a solar panel mount and panel assembly with multiple other items in basin somewhere.
I'm sure by the looks of everything around pond, there can't be much for fish left. When weather clears up, I'll drain and assess it and make a decision.
22 years and never a flow event like this. It don't rain here like that, ever.

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Ugh, that makes me want to puke. Im sorry to hear that.


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I appreciate your Comment, NEDOC. To make matters worse, it has built again this eve and as of right now we have received another 2.75" in 55 minutes. Guessing my dam will be gone by morning.

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My condolences


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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Originally Posted By: Snipe
Update: After a couple of nights of soaking and saturating the ground, the big one came last nigh, algae clogged drain pipe and water breached dam. Don't know how much flow-through I had but I'd say all of it 3 times.
I now have a boat with a 6hp outboard on bottom somewhere with a solar panel mount and panel assembly with multiple other items in basin somewhere.
I'm sure by the looks of everything around pond, there can't be much for fish left. When weather clears up, I'll drain and assess it and make a decision.
22 years and never a flow event like this. It don't rain here like that, ever.


That is horrible Snipe. So sorry to hear that.

There have been some other threads about dam breeches where a lot more fish stayed behind than people thought would. So cross your fingers, maybe quite a few of the larger fish stayed behind and did not go with the flow.


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Originally Posted By: Snipe
I appreciate your Comment, NEDOC. To make matters worse, it has built again this eve and as of right now we have received another 2.75" in 55 minutes. Guessing my dam will be gone by morning.


Hoping for a positive update this morning.


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For anyone reading this thread this is an important reminder of three things.

1. Make sure your overflow pipe stays open, and
2. Make sure in the pond design there is plenty of freeboard to handle temporary over fill, and
3. Make sure in your pond design you have an emergency overflow that is either grassed or rip-rap to the point it will not wash out and is way, way, way larger and over capacity than you think you will ever need.

Last edited by snrub; 08/12/19 06:02 AM.

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I hate to hear of your bad luck...I'm hoping the best for you!


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That's the kind of thing that will make a grown man cry.

Really sorry to hear it.

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A neighbor of mine had the spillway wash out on his seven acre pond, reducing it to about 5.5 acres with lots of shallows. There's not much he can do to fix it short of spending 100k. It has about 400 acres of watershed. It only lasted a few years.

So sorry about all the flooding. It was doing so well.

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That sucks, Snipe. I hope its not as bad as you think.


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Sorry to hear this Snipe! I hope everything can be worked out.


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Kenny let's talk today/tonight. I'm here to help you assess the situation and suggest some strategy moving forward. Only bright spot is at least it's a new fishery...you know, didn't lose any 5# SMB.

I'm not convinced you lost a lot of fish...per Lusk, most fish swim against the current except GC. I'd be more focused on retrieving your boat, motor and aeration system. We can rebuild the fishery if it's even needed.


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Water is down about 4' now, I can just now start to see bow of boat.
I did get all 4 batts out, control panel and pump that "was" 7' above full pool level, pump and motor are now torn down, I'll see what I can save there. I can't believe the items that flushed around the dam.. Emergency spillway is totally exposed now and to my surprise-somehow-the grass seems to have held it together without cutting anything up..The one thing I did right was plant a waterway mix 2 years ahead of finishing the seal and filling pond, that might possibly have saved the dam. I feel blessed for that alone. I guess we'll never know for sure what went over and what stayed but I did watch 2 smb today in a shallow area banging FHM in a shallow grassy flat spot.
In my sediment ponds above the irony is the water is "clean"..as-in I can see bottom through the tall grass in about 15-16" water. Also seen a few Tilapia and another small smb in there, might have seen a RES too, could see the black opercular and dark tail.
If there is anything about this that I can smile about, it would be the massive mats of FA, HIGH UP ON THE BANK!

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It's great to hear your dam held up!


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Yeah Bob, not what I was expecting to see.. The gent that built my dam is known for super high quality work and I think my efforts at grassing it early helped also.

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Glad your dam held up!

I've had two flooding events the last four years and neither was much fun. After 2016 flood caused lots of erosion, I had heavy rocks trucked in. Between the rocks and established grass, second event this spring was far less damaging.

Hope you will find what I did: Only the little guys like to go with the flow. Big fish, including panfish, are much more safety conscious than YOY. We had hundreds of BG stranded along emergency spillway, not a one larger than 3 or 4 inches.

Last edited by anthropic; 08/14/19 10:43 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Glad to hear it turned out much better than you feared Snipe.


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Very good news. I hope it all works out for ya. Sounds like you got a man made reef at the bottom right now.


The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
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Sounds like things are all going to be better than anticipated. Great to hear snipe.


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Pumped the final 3' down the last couple of days and am back to normal pool. I have lovely coffee colored water from nutrients but it is clear coffee if that makes sense.
We got some work done where water flow removed some areas of earth, although fairly minor, I leveled, spread grass seed and put erosion blankets down while it's wet.
I have observed a few good SMB, a few yoy SMB, LOTS of RES YOY and a few adults. I'm not seeing the masses of FHM adults I was but large numbers of fry of all sizes. I have not seen a single YP yet but Cloverleaf traps will tell me what's up there.
We made a trek down stream today which in NW KS is wide open, flat pasture for the most part and I was able to spot and collect some specimens of several species (all high n dry btw). I found about 40 YOY SMB, 1 adult SMB, 3 BG, 1 RES adult and 2 5-6" YP.
We went nearly 5 miles until we came to a CRP field that had a sharp draw. The flow was very wide in this basin but slow so water was not "fast and furious". Not sure how much further measurable water went so what we found is probably incomplete but most of the fish I found were in about a half-mile stretch where it was really wide, like 250-300 yards wide. Amazing how fast she soaked in. Had hopes of finding a pool or 2 that may have supported life. Not sure that many fish left with water flow so maybe I have more left than I know??
I did find a dozen or so Tilapia UPSTREAM in my sediment pond so I know which way they wanted to go. When water level was down to a small area I was able to net and toss those back in to pond.
Life goes forward and fall net samples will hopefully give me a partial idea of where I go from here.

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Do you have any sense of if you got a bunch of sediment washed into the pond?


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Not so much sediment but water is tannic so my nutrient level is very high. Grass (Switch, western wheat) held and slowed the flow. Looks like flow through areas are clean of sediment coming in but water is going to be "hot" with phos, etc again for awhile.

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Sure am glad to hear that your dam held up! Whew!

It has been a funky year for rainfall. Here in central Iowa, May got 13 inches (normal is 5), June got 9 ( normal is 4.5), July was typical (4) and August was dry....until 4 days ago, when we got 4 inches in one shot, and 2 more 48 hrs later. My pond had evaporated down as expected during the dry July and Aug weather, but she's topped up again now! I had the 'iced coffee' colored water for 2 months (May and June) and it's back to that again. Main positive from this colored water was the effect on my FA. My pond has the least FA we've seen in the past 4 years. We have kept using pond dye this summer, once the water cleared up and spot sprayed and raked.

I am hoping that you kept more of your mature fish than you know. I know electro surveys can be a bit pricey, but maybe it would be helpful in developing the management plan going forward? I am likely going to get one next spring, to see now my 2017 stockers are progressing.


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Originally Posted By: DrLuke
Sure am glad to hear that your dam held up! Whew!

It has been a funky year for rainfall. Here in central Iowa, May got 13 inches (normal is 5), June got 9 ( normal is 4.5), July was typical (4) and August was dry....until 4 days ago, when we got 4 inches in one shot, and 2 more 48 hrs later. My pond had evaporated down as expected during the dry July and Aug weather, but she's topped up again now! I had the 'iced coffee' colored water for 2 months (May and June) and it's back to that again. Main positive from this colored water was the effect on my FA. My pond has the least FA we've seen in the past 4 years. We have kept using pond dye this summer, once the water cleared up and spot sprayed and raked.

I am hoping that you kept more of your mature fish than you know. I know electro surveys can be a bit pricey, but maybe it would be helpful in developing the management plan going forward? I am likely going to get one next spring, to see now my 2017 stockers are progressing.


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Temps are still up at a point I don't like to handle fish if possible but when it gets down to upper 60's this is an option.
Our highs are forecasted in the mid 70's next week with lows into upper 40's so that may happen sooner than I thought.

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Ive been watching this last round of storms down there. Hoping a couple of those big rains slid east of you.


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We had another 1.5 2 nights ago but missed the big stuff.
Pond did come up about 6" but that's normal. I don't see much for rain in extended forecast but highs in the low 70's and low's down in the 40's forecasted so not sure how my tilapia will fair. I don't think I'm going to need to worry about FA again this year, water was 72 yesterday evening..

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Kansas has taking a beating this year with all the massive rains. Hopefully you will have a good turn out and not have lost many. Good luck I hoping for a mild winter myself.


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The big rains missed us again today. Not a drop fell here. Low ponds. We did get enough small rains last week to re-green the hayfield and lawns that were browning. We have not had any rain with run-off since June 24. Some places relatively nearby have had over 6 inches in the past two weeks. The weather site I belong to acknowledged we could be in a rain shadow.

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If it starts to sprinkle here they put up flash food warnings. The ground has been pretty soaked all summer. No where for the water to go. I have a small creek in my backyard. It normally is dry most of the year. It has had running water for months now.


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This is the creek that for most of the year is dry. This year it has been from 3 inches to 4 feet deep and never been dry.

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Had my first day of Fall sample 2019 today. Set Trap net last night and run 277 fish across measure board and scale today. Was interesting to see so many fish, almost too many for myself to handle.
Had some YP of all sizes present from about 3.5-14".. WR's ave about 98. High on smaller fish, a bit low on the 10"+ size.
Got a surprise of a 13-3/4" SMB that was 107% and several smaller.. SMB ave is well over 100% so looks good there.
Some real good Male BG averaging slightly above 100% WR and RES with some decent growth but the larger they are the lower the WR so not as many as I had hoped utilizing pellets.
Took 3 BCP out that were accidental stockings last year. They made it to 12-13" in that year and those minnow eating machines are in the freezer now. Got 1 Saugeye at 18-1/2" and above 110% WR. Lots of YOY RES, YP and SMB with 2 6" GSH and hundreds of crawdads.
WT 58 and falling, low of 34 forecasted for tonight.
I can see after 1 sample that my larger forage items are lacking, the larger the fish, the lower the WR with exception of SMB.
I've removed several hundred YOY YP and can tell I haven't dented the population but those guys are denting my FHM's. I believe I need to be more aggressive on removing mid-size perch as well. Part of this may be from the flood and loosing most of my vegetation.
6 nights to go so prelim here, just thinking out loud.

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What type of trap setup do you use?

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Fyke nets roundy. I have a 4'X 5' alum frame Fyke with 30' lead net I really like for the small pond stuff, much easier to handle than our larger, steel-frame fykes.

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Those are some serious setups! When I was younger I run hoop nets and catfish baskets in the river. I always assumed you needed a bit of current for the hoop to work. Guess that is what the feeder wings are for. Thanks for the info.

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Wow, that's great info. This is going to be so informative for me to follow. Thanks for all of the work and time that allows us all to learn.

Interesting you had luck catching SMB in the fyke net. I've had my fyke out dozens of times and have yet to catch a SMB.


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C, that's how it was for me last fall at my pond. We have similar results with SMB in large impoundments/Lakes. SMB seem to be pretty sly and in observations it's been noted how unique their behavior really is, smart fish.
I got a pretty decent mix of SMB today, #'s still ave. above 100 WR so I'm impressed with my Smallies overall.
YP is Mixed in WR's, I got a 14.5" today that figured out to 106 WR, yet most of my YP above 10" are 95-96 ave.
BG look good, RES aren't looking the best, ave WR is 92 after 80+ fish in 2 days. Something missing for them to do well, just not sure what.
I did notice something today after folding up nets after drying.. I decided to take my 3' fry net and buzz the shoreline. Lots of minners from fry to 3" but noticed most are shiners.. had to look "real hard" to find an actual FHM. Also found high numbers of RES from 1/2" up to 2".
I'll run the full 7 nights but I think I can plainly see a trend..
ps, ice on the top of a bucket this am...ooooooh!
WT 56

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You don't suppose the RES struggling is due to your tilapia reducing the FA do you? Seems RES always thrive in environments when there is an abundance of vegetation and/or FA.


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I think the RES are struggling in Snipe's pond likely due to too much competition with BG and YP for natural food items. I assume his RES are not pellet trained and this means the adult RES have to survive on natural foods. As evolved, RES are best or well adapted to eat small mollusks and when these items are scarce the RES are not real competitive with other better adapted invertebrate predators.

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I believe there is merit to both comments and it looks like the easiest fix is to remove all of the BG I can. I stocked only males but I've also lost nearly all of my vegetation due to the flood, which with it went billions of aquatic invertebrates and I have no foodmart left.
I'm planning to remove about 75 6-7" YP and all of the BG I net, here on out. It's a large move but one I feel is needed due to the lack of supporting vegetation, hence other more abundant foods no longer available.

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You don't think the vegetation will return in short order? I was presuming most of that would return next year, but have no idea.

BTW, I love the single sex BG plan. That's gonna be fun to watch.

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Flood was Aug 10th I think.. I had hoped some veg would show back up but never has. I'm sure that has to make an impact on forage base, nowhere to hide, nothing left to reproduce FHM-wise. I did get some fry yesterday that was 1/4-5/16" I brought home to try and identify-I can't for sure but I believe they are Shiners and am guessing a week or less old, so could be FHM-possibly.
Day 3 in the bag.. Pretty much the same as 1-2 but 75% of the fish today were YP-166 to be exact with 1 oddball RESXBG-but 8.5".
Using 3 tanks for this, 1 for electrolytes, 1 for salt dip and 1 with fresh water before return to pond. This is a 2-man operation with this many fish, gotta find some help!

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Thinking out loud here, one of the things I was looking forward to this sample season was collecting some recruits from the Tilapia. I've caught 3-4 between 2-3" and 21 about 1/2" (1/2" in fry net). Not seeing what I thought I would there. I was going to hold some over winter inside but maybe they've been preyed upon heavily??

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Interesting on the tilapia. Whats your water temp? Maybe tilapia are fyke net savvy?

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I think they are fairly savvy..I've watched them walk with a pectoral fin on their side in an inch of water to get to an algae patch.
WT 54.

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Bill, is it possible to have a lower number of male only BG with RES and establish more normal growth rates with a slightly more aggressive culling of YP once my vegetation reestablishes?
Or would it be smart to pull all BG possible, continue the plan to cull quite a few 5-7 YP and see how that turns out-if anything changes with RES.
WWBCD?

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Kenny I'd harvest every single BG you can manage, weather permitting, all year long. Seining, trapping, angling...either than or drain, seine, remove your desirable species, lime nuke and refill. Provided you have a way to fill the pond, you'd really only need to move your fish for a couple weeks.


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I stocked about 70 male only BG early this summer so I'd think I would stand a chance of removing most. I have already removed 31 in the last 2 days. I pulled 43 5-7" YP today as well.
I'll see how many BG I get in the next 4 days and report.

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A not-so-quick report of my fall net samples..
Using 1 trap net with 7 sets at the same locations as last year, here's my numbers. Please keep in mind I have a certain percentage of recapture but as with all sampling this normally provides a better view over-all.
I've converted back to nearest inch for clarity as it makes more sense to most but actual samples are mm and grams.
To start with SMB.
135 fish Total with confirmed recruitment., ave. WR 145.02% Fish above 10" ave. 109% WR.
Largest SMB 14.25", 111% WR.

YP-397 fish total with confirmed recruitment., ave. WR 104.35% Fish above 10" ave. 100.23% WR.
Largest YP 15-1/16", 98% WR. Noted YP at 248.4mm (9.78") and above start to trend to a lower WR- Seems to be something lacking for continued maximum growth but note SMB appear to have ample forage.

RES-299 fish total with confirmed recruitment. ave. WR 98.92%
Largest RES 7.75", 93.4% WR. Fish smaller than 6" are the highest WR and trends downward starting above 6.25" consistently.
Possible loss of most vegetation and associated aquatic life during flood may have impacted this figure.

BG-91 fish total, no recruitment noted at this time, no females noted.
ave. WR 107.44%, Largest BG 7-1/16", 104.1% WR.
68 BG removed, All below 150mm (6" roughly).

Additional fish-
3 SAE, 108.3% WR, Largest 18.45", 109.2% WR.
3 BCP, 105.1% WR, Largest 13-1/16" 102% WR. (all removed).
7 HBG, RESXBG and 1 BGXGSF, All above 5" & Removed, no data taken.
1 CC, 26.5" Removed.
27 GSH, ave 5.75". Very obvious GSH recruitment in very large numbers from 1" up to 2.75".
Not 1 single FHM confirmed in fry nets.
Numerous sunfish not identifiable from 3/8" to 1.25" sampled.
Possible BGXRES or straight RES. Plan to monitor over time.

To pull this data all together, on the YP I'm going to need some input from the YP experts as it would appear I'm loosing growth nearing the 10" mark indicating required forage size is low, yet SMB are consistent through the same range and well above std weight.

#2, RES are not thriving here and with my flood this summer and being the first full year, I have nothing to compare to and can only speculate on the loss of vegetation and how it may have affected them. The loss of vegetation may have also exposed forage items and possibly caused the high WR's for SMB and I plan to monitor that.
Naiads, mostly paddle tail, were present as were large numbers of aquatic worm vessels before filamentous algae was flushed out from flood.

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I think the SMB are out competing the YP for needed foods which is why the YP growth seems to be slowing at 9+". IMO the 9" YP and 9-10" SMB are eating the same foods. If the YP were eating pellets and getting more food the growth would be better for the larger YP.


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Beings only 75 of the 7-8" YP were feed trained before release, which is about 1/3 of total stocking, I removed 45 <5" and 10 9-11".
I also pulled every SMB less than 7" which was 86 fish- majority in 4-5" range.
Do you have suggestions going forward, Bill?
I should add I had more of a large perch fishery in mind in the begining and had planned to pull (harvest) substantial numbers of 6-10" fish.

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Very interesting Snipe. I have nothing to add (because I don't know much) but just wanted to say I applaud your detail to management and am following to see if there is anything I can glean for SMB management in my RES/SMB pond.

Looks like your SMB had no problem recruiting.


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snrub, SMB have responded better than anticipated.. My growth was a little more than I figured I would get.
I wish I could have more stable conditions, veggie wise, and that would help.
I'm fixing my flood plain so the high water events can't influence the pond as much as it did this summer.

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Snipe - I don't know much about the biology, food web, and ecosystem of your pond other than some of the things that you have mentioned on the forum. Based on your fish sampling results, I suspect the YP growth is as good as can be expected based on the species present and their respective population structure and density. You should be able to produce some decent YP, although it may take a little longer compared to pellet fed perch or perch in a pond dominated by minnows(FHM, BNM, etc), a strong invertebrate community, and crayfish.

For making the YP a primary panfish in a pond, one has to focus on having less competition from other species and or focus on increasing the percentage of pellet trained YP. More numbers of pellet trained YP helps a lot to insure those fish get ample food each day despite the lack of natural foods and an increased interspecies competition. As our mentor BobLusk says "every day a fish does not eat is a day it does not grow". The only thing I would add to this is the fish not only has to eat but it has to daily eat significantly more than a maintenance diet otherwise RW is reduced and growth is slower. Reducing competition usually results in better body condition and improved growth rate of remaining fish.

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I think I understand in general, I need to reduce numbers more yet.
I have to do some thinking out loud here so my thought process is understood.
I put 5 Saugeye in to help control expected recruitment of YP. 75 of 110 YP stocked were feed trained with the thought of continued growth and less pressure on natural items. I'm feeding at twice the recommended rate per acre (per Dustin) and it's being consumed quickly. I've also confirmed heavy YP feeding-by far more than any other species present.
Thinking out loud again here-I need to find other forage minnow types.. The GSH are obviously doing well but with differences in habits I can't help but think other species, chubs, emeralds, blunt nose, etc, would add more options in different areas of the water column. Aquatic growth will come back, balance will be achieved.
I also feel strongly that a fish should have everything it can eat-every day- to make this work the best, also the reason I feel I may need to remove some forage eaters and better control those numbers.
With that being said, I believe I will reset traps and pull higher numbers of YP and SMB out before winter sets in hard.

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You may have to allow time for the fish removal adjustments to influence the RW values before removing lots more fish. If YP are the main fish for your harvest plans then I would focus on removing SMB rather than YP. How big is the pond?


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.630 acre Bill.
About 3.55 ac ft of water.
3.5 months after 12lbs of adult FHM I put 20 3-4", 15 6-8" YP because that was the number available.
At that time I stocked another 15lbs of fhm.
1 month later, 175 res, 2-4", 45 2" smb and 2lbs of crawdads.
on Oct 29 I stocked another 15lbs of fhm.
on Nov 9 I stocked 450 3 to 3.5" gsh.
April, 2019, 25 7-8" & 100 4-5" YP, 75 7-8" in cage for 15 days to feed train then released.
on aug 28, 19, I stocked 67lbs of fhm from a grow-out pond clean out.
EDIT: and I can't find a single FHM....

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With all the FHM that you have added and now see or trap few if any,,, suggests to me, that there is too much predation pressure for the YP to have a higher RW. This is evidenced by the 9"+ YP showing reduce body condition. Your sample showed
above 10" an ave. 100.23% WR. Largest YP 15-1/16", 98% WR. Compare this with a 12.5" YP I caught today that weighed 1.25lb and a RW of 110 with 40 grams of body fat(7% of total weight). Actually I think my fish had too much fat. I think your perch are still considered in good body condition at 98% and average of 100.23%. I would sample a few YP and check for the amount of body fat. Female YP at this time of year are carrying egg sacs for the spawn next spring. Ample body fat allows for good healthy egg development and reduced forage intake during winter. Reduced fat content means this fish has to consume enough natural foods during winter to produce healthy eggs. Egg mass at spawning can be 30% of the total body weight and significantly contributes to their total body weight - RW. The 12.5" YP I mention above had an egg mass of 13.5 grams and close to the size of my thumb.

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Right or wrong, in the last 3 days I've removed 70 YP, 106 SMB and 81 BG.
Now, I'd like to find some chubs, emeralds and any other form of minnow available to see how dynamic of a population structure I can obtain going forward.
The lack of different forage minnows available has me wondering if it's not feasible to raise them or do they just not produce well.?.?.?
I'm about to a point of confusion where I'm half tempted to raise either different forage types only or go with YP only.
One year and 3 months was not what I had in mind but some very obvious things happened in that short amount of time that made it very clear my stocking plan was a mistake.
I've almost talked myself into a YP pond only..
Thinking out loud here.. I'm sure I'll change my mind tomorrow.

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My thinking indicates that when one's focus is trying to raise YP or any fish specie on natural foods one has to keep the predator density low enough so lots of forage fish are available so the target fish can always be getting enough food for optimum growth. As overcrowding occurs overall growth rates tend to be reduced.

This is where starting with all pellet feeding perch becomes important. Thus when natural foods are lacking the YP can still be fed pellets to produce optimum growth. When too many predators are present they limit the amount or recruitment of YP. There will always be some recruitment YP that do not learn to eat pellets and this is when it is important to have goodly amounts of natural forage to keep this version of YP actively growing. Even with this method the YP numbers have to be kept at a relatively moderate density or poundage (harvest) so the pond does not develop too high of a carrying capacity that in itself probably reduces the best growth rates.

Snipe - Initially I think in your case it would be wise to focus on removing SMB rather than too many perch. I think the SMB as a group are consuming a larger percentage of the natural forage items compared to the food percentage consumed by perch as a group. I think the smallie is a more aggressive and more successful predator in limited forage habitats compared to YP.

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I'm removing as many of the new recruit SMB as I can get trapped, really any less than 5". If I have some slow growers from original stockers they probably need removed anyway. The problem I see is the outlandish number of 4-5" perch.
If one SMB was successful in nesting, and based on size there could have been 2500-3500 eggs. If 5% made it to 3", that could be 150 fish?? If the fry survived predation due to my large amount of riprap that number could possibly be higher. I'm estimating my hatch date and with that said, my new recruits are growing at a higher rate than my original stocker SMB but I feel the diversity of my forage base was better for the new recruits but I don't feel that way now. I have very high numbers of GSH-I'm as dumbfounded by their numbers as I was by the FHM earlier this year. I had confirmation of YP fry long before I seen any smallie fry. I think I was behind the curve before I ever recognized it. If 2 SMB spawned successfully, well.. Maybe that happened but somewhere the entire system blew up and the forage base got hit hard-especially the easy targets.
I'm close to 100 smb less than 5" removed so maybe I should stop here.
EDIT: another item of interest that I want to add is my fall samples were 7 net sets, 1 per day. I decided to pull perch and smb so I set 2 per day for 2 nights. so in 11 net sets I collected 4-1/2 5gal buckets full of crawdads and I've removed every one of them. I stocked 2lbs a year ago and removed probably 35-40lbs now.

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I bet there are guys out there that would have loved to have your discards. grin

Buying 5" SMB fingerlings ain't cheap. Or always easy to get.

I have a bunch this year too. Moved about 50 to my main pond.

The smallies sure like to bite. Half hour fishing in my main pond, where the only SMB are the ones I have moved over from my RES/SMB pond, and I caught 4 SMB 12-14" long. Caught one CC and 4 hybrids in that time. So for the SMB being a very minority fish in that pond, they sure do bite aggressively.

Now it is funny though, in the RES/SMB pond they often will not bite my offerings. I think the difference is in the main pond they have heavy competition from BG and HBG so they have to work for a living. In the SMB pond the RES probably give them little competition. Plus I feed them pellets. So there is little need to hustle for food.

Having three main ponds and a couple small ones sure makes it interesting in the ways fish act differently under different conditions.

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Originally Posted By: Snipe
... another item of interest that I want to add is my fall samples were 7 net sets, 1 per day. I decided to pull perch and smb so I set 2 per day for 2 nights. so in 11 net sets I collected 4-1/2 5gal buckets full of crawdads and I've removed every one of them. I stocked 2lbs a year ago and removed probably 35-40lbs now.


I find that very interesting as IIRC crawdads are preferred forage for both SMB and YP.make sure you put me on the invite list for that crawdad boil!

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: Snipe
... another item of interest that I want to add is my fall samples were 7 net sets, 1 per day. I decided to pull perch and smb so I set 2 per day for 2 nights. so in 11 net sets I collected 4-1/2 5gal buckets full of crawdads and I've removed every one of them. I stocked 2lbs a year ago and removed probably 35-40lbs now.


I find that very interesting as IIRC crawdads are preferred forage for both SMB and YP.make sure you put me on the invite list for that crawdad boil!

That's exactly why I stocked 2 lbs.. I knew there would be no predation the first year but I had no idea they would explode like that. I have feaky pictures of them coming up the bank after pellets when I feed. I have no vegetation left, they were even starting to consume my water hyacinth.
When the flood flushed my FA out, it changed everything, no doubt.

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John, I have all the cages and pens to save these for transfer! grin
Augie got about 70 of my YP today and I sold 55 smb yesterday.
I can fix ya up! smile
Also, if anyone has doubts about my complete saturation salt solution, Augie got to see this in practice today.. when they float to the top and look dead, move them back to straight water.. works great!

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Originally Posted By: Snipe

Also, if anyone has doubts about my complete saturation salt solution, Augie got to see this in practice today.. when they float to the top and look dead, move them back to straight water.. works great!


It's true. I saw it with my own eyes.

Into salt water, float, into fresh water, swim away like nothing happened.

Those fish spent eight hours traveling across Kansas and Missouri and were released into my pond late Sunday evening.

Monday evening some of them came out for pellets and a giant shiner mugging.

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Time to revisit this... Funny what actually showed it's ugly face with the crawdads this summer.
Part of what I want to share as an observation here-in part-is in regards to the article Bill Cody wrote a few years back, "Growing the best smallies", which has become a bible for me as I refer back to that very frequently. What I'd like to share in particular is something I have continued to observe through this summer.
Early this year I did observe 2 monster batches of YP eggs that I left and a few batches of much smaller ribbons in which I removed. I fished some after the first of May and did catch some really nice YP, RES and quite a few SMB of different sizes.
I have not seen a single YP since the end of May but had a few days where I couldn't wet a line without a 4-7" SMB smacking it. I did catch several SMB from 11-14" so I started removing the SMB less than 7", which ended up being about 110 fish in June. 70 of those fish were picked up by the State of Kansas and utilized in another community lake stocking where we decided to try something different than the traditional LMB-BG situation. Our western regional director now considers me a bad influence on my regional Biologist but that's ok, it's outside the box thinking.
At my pond about a week or so after we moved the SMB I caught something in a fry net that was not easily recognized and I realized it was a SMB post larva. About 15-18mm size. what I wasn't seeing was any number of minnow fry-very few. Last summer as totally different in netting fry-literally thousands in 1 swoop of the net.. Not this year. So, as the summer has progressed, I've seen several of these small SMB, maybe 6-8 each time I've walked around the pond. Today I seen 5-6, and in 2 months they are still less than 2" long (the problem), which brings me back to Bill's article indicating the lack of available food tends to show up in what I am seeing. Why are my BGxRES and RES present from 1" up to 2.5" in really good numbers and appear healthy? Scads of GSH, the water is literally moving with life-insect larva, small inverts, other fish, etc.. WHAT-IS-Going-on?? I seen these small SMB last year but didn't see them for long because they grew-up to 8" by fall last year.
My Perch supplier also raises FHM and after catching and caging the SMB prior to transfer, I done some horse trading for 105lbs of FHM ….85lbs went into my pond, 20lbs went into 2 other newly filled ponds.
I can't find a FHM in a fry net, again.
I know a 2 month old 2" SMB indicates a problem but I can't manipulate forage anymore than I have. Removed over 400lbs of craws that obviously reproduced, small fish everywhere, culling high numbers of most numerous sizes of SMB to make room. Extensive aquatic habitat work that has produced about a 15% area of nursery for YOY.
What am I missing?

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Quote
.... So, as the summer has progressed, I've seen several of these small SMB, maybe 6-8 each time I've walked around the pond. Today I seen 5-6, and in 2 months they are still less than 2" long (the problem), which brings me back to Bill's article indicating the lack of available food tends to show up in what I am seeing. Why are my BGxRES and RES present from 1" up to 2.5" in really good numbers and appear healthy?

Snipe, it is normal for LMB growth (even fry survival to advance fingerling) to be greatly diminished by the presence of large numbers of juvenile lepomis (especially bluegill). It is probably also true of SMB. So I think you have a bumper crop of RES and BGxRES at the same size as your SMB YOY. It is competition that is slowing the growth of YOY SMB. These YOY both SMB and RES serve as food for your larger SMB and so I would think the story surrounding your mature SMB is probably a very good one.

This may sound odd, but I do think that crayfish also compete with juvenile fish by denying them organisms of the benthos they would either actively forage or have opportunities for when emerging. Your efforts this year on crayfish removal will serve you next year. It may need to be an ongoing effort in combination with a slot to allow a population of large SMB to develop. These larger SMB should not be harvested as they will be control for your crawfish population. You may consider single sex, very large > 5lb CC as crawfish control as well. One thing I will mention that I might receive criticism for, is that for an ecosystem to work at its greatest efficiency, all the participants need to be working hard for their living. For example, if CC dominate at feed time and are getting sufficient nutrition from feed, it is not likely they are functioning well as a crawfish predator. Let them be a little hungry ... and they will hunt ... this I can assure you.

Quote
I know a 2 month old 2" SMB indicates a problem but I can't manipulate forage anymore than I have. Removed over 400lbs of craws that obviously reproduced, small fish everywhere, culling high numbers of most numerous sizes of SMB to make room. Extensive aquatic habitat work that has produced about a 15% area of nursery for YOY.
What am I missing?

I don't think you are doing anything wrong but would suggest that you are experiencing a normal progression that deals with the population dynamics of your panfish and crayfish population. IMHO it will be through management of the panfish and predators that will best serve your goals. There are a number of players in the ecosystem and so isn't as predictable as it could be with a simpler food web. But you have considerable knowledge and very good sampling data, so we are the students and you are teaching us.

We like variety in our ponds and this generally greatly increases the opportunity to grow larger predators. But in small bodies of water, larger predators are usually a sign of diminished growth per individual forage fish than is possible. So having large predators usually comes at the sacrifice of having large panfish, especially over the long haul. The vice-versa can also be said. I think what we want (and try) to do is have the best of both worlds and not sacrifice anything. I would just say that the conditions that favor the growth one population or another are very strong and difficult to overcome. For LMB growing under similar conditions, they are able to achieve trophy sizes because they live a long time. LMB at 4 years age may only be 14" long and may have been only 4" long at the end of the first year, however, they live long enough to "turn the corner" and be a predator of the prey they competed against in the first years of their life.

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Snipe it is very interresting that you bring this up, because for about 5 years my SMB seemed to unable to pull off successful reproduction. I blamed it on the ridiculous number of FHM in my pond consuming all of the zooplankton and outcompeting SMB fry for food. But for whatever reason last year I had a bumper crop of SMB with no apparent reduction in FHM. So I'm interested to follow this and find out what you learn.

Hope all is well friend.


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NEDOC, got sidetracked and didn't return to this quick enough but I do have something to add.. since posting this about the smb, I have seen a few in the 4-5" range but a LOT in the 2-2.5" range right now/ I've been playing with the smaller smb that hang just at the edge of my new dock. I'm trying to get them to attack #2 Optimal starter and I've had a few takers and it's been fun if nothing else.
This cold system that set all sorts of new records here has caused some unforeseen issues. 104 high on Sunday to 29 low with heavy snow Tuesday. My water temp went from 83 sunday eve to 51 by Tuesday eve. Today I measured temp thru water column and fond less than 1 deg spread in 12ft. Needless to say, the algae crash caused a domino effect that ended up killing a lot of fish. I've been involved in another community project in Colby, ks that had a massive crash and subsequent kill as well that just showed up this am. The smb that we stocked there are from culling 70 juvies from my pond. Kyle, the parks director there, (also a pondBoss mag subscriber and lurker of these forums) found fish piping and beyond that this am, including 15-20" CC at his location as well.
Not sure what to do.. sure has been a tuff 2 years.

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104° to 29° in two days. That is crazy weather. Mother Nature needs to lay off the Red Bull for awhile.

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Sure having fun when I'm able to get a bite or 2.. Thought I'd share another BGxRES and decent BG from this eve..
I believe the hybrid is a female based on operculum difference between this specimen and another cross with a very long, dark flap posted earlier this year.

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Splendid fish Kenny.
That's some long pectoral fin on the hybrid.

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[quote][/quote]Great BG and Hybrid Kenny. Your water looks a very pretty shade of green in those pictures.

Originally Posted by NEDOC
Snipe it is very interesting that you bring this up, because for about 5 years my SMB seemed to unable to pull off successful reproduction. I blamed it on the ridiculous number of FHM in my pond consuming all of the zooplankton and outcompeting SMB fry for food. But for whatever reason last year I had a bumper crop of SMB with no apparent reduction in FHM. So I'm interested to follow this and find out what you learn.

NEDOC, you've piqued my interest. Can you tell us more about your SMB and FHM experience in the thread on SMB? When I read this post I can't help but notice that FHM have persisted with your SMB in large numbers for 5 years.

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Beautiful bluegill right there.

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Originally Posted by Snipe
This cold system that set all sorts of new records here has caused some unforeseen issues. 104 high on Sunday to 29 low with heavy snow Tuesday. My water temp went from 83 sunday eve to 51 by Tuesday eve. Today I measured temp thru water column and fond less than 1 deg spread in 12ft. Needless to say, the algae crash caused a domino effect that ended up killing a lot of fish..

One of the worst things for fish is sudden temp changes. That alone can kill fish and some species are less tolerant than others. When looking at fish and temperatures its not just their max and min lethal temps that are measured but also their ability to withstand sudden temp change. Remember fish are cold blooded and unlike us do not regulate temps as well.

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Net samples for 2020 have began. Set nets last night and the first run today is in the books.
Day 1 doesn't usually tell much except today I caught 3 of my "small" saugeye...23" 24.75" and a 3rd just shy of 27"
wasn't expecting to see those!
I won't bore anyone with numbers but had many nice YP from 5 to 13.75" and still stuck in that 89-94 WR range.
My BG and BGxRES are pushing up to 9.25" and all Lepomis from today averaged 122% WR.
No big GSH, only 2 crawfish.
4 SMB from basically 12'-14.25". Wr on these is still showing high 110's
A few HSB stocked early spring but no specimens in nets yet.
6 days to go so anything can happen. I'll post any surprises and total data compilation of end of sets for thos besides myself that find this interesting.
A couple of picks to follow.

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snipe, I'm impressed. smile


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Snipe I'm always interested in your data. Your insight is very useful. Unfortunately im just not smart enough to respond to them. Just want you to know we always like reading you info.


The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
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New observation the last several days.
I notice some larger fish utilizing pellets the last few days and the pellet attack was fast enough I couldn't confirm what it was.
Last night I got my answer.. Standing on the corner of the dock throwing a small jig into basically the exact spot numerous times, I caught a SMB every cast for 10-11 casts. Every one of those SMB were regurgitating pellets. Fish were all 8-16" and I was very pleasantly surprised by this because until now, I was unable to prove that was occurring. Very happy to see that.
Before I left I managed to latch into a nice YP-also was unloading a few pellets. 15-1/8" and 701g, so 2 ozs over state record on YP.
I've been trapping with Z traps, running them before sunset and again around 8am. I'm pulling about 50 1-3" BG out everyday and moving 20-25 YP 3-6" every day also..

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Haven't posted for some time on this so time for an update..
Last August I performed an Alum treatment after a small fight for 45 days or so with algae.
Pond is completely ice-free today and the vis is nearly 5' and it is painfully obvious I need some new/better/more habitat. I can see so much...of missing items of structure/habitat, but the last time I had this type of view was as I was filling it. I'm not 4 yrs in yet but I think 3 big floods was a bit hard on things, so thinking about a redo now that I have a berm around inlet side and no more field run-off can occur. I think it best to wait another year or so as the fish farm needs to be established first, and... we have caught 14 YP well over the KS state record now, I think 11 of those were late October and November. Unfortunately, It hasn't been somebody's kid or a friend that doesn't fish much or we would make it official. Funny thing is our Region 1 biologist caught 1 and said there was no way he could claim it so on we go. The largest we've caught so far was well over 1lb over the record so if a kid does get that piece of paper, it's going to stick for a long time.

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Snipe - that is great news and thanks for the informative update. Great fish pictures too!. Thanks. Alum must work well in your water type. Who says you shouldn't and can't stock yellow perch in ponds because they will not do and grow very well? I say phooey on that old fashioned idea.

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You're absolutely correct Bill, and you have a fantastic memory because that's exactly what I was told going into this.. YP won't do well in your area they said.. They've done better than anywhere else in the State!

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Hello.

Nice Yellow-perch.

There is Yellow-perch in Florida why not in Kansas.
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Just the mentality of it, azteca.. YP in FL are a much different strain but you are correct. Concerns here were water temp in summer but what wasn't really considered was my altitude. We cool off enough at night that my temps will max at 80 daytime with about 4 degs lower on bottom. usually see about 78 average and my Northern YP from NE Colorado have done extremely well. The one thing I still see (but less of this last year) is YP struggling through the 10-12" stage but once you get on to 13-13.5" they are back up at 100% WR and above.

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Hello.

If it's possible, it would be interesting to see after how many generations the Yellow-perch could adapt completely to warmer temperature.

That you could possibly sell Yellow-perch in southern Kansas.

Notice, it may be a dream.
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Compare this with above.. I'd say she's gravid..
This fish caught today, was 10ozs over current State record. In fact, we caught 3 today all at least 5oz over record.. one day a kid will be the one on the other end..

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Snipe - Keep doing what you are doing and in a year or two those perch will be 15" or maybe 16" long. Then the old state record will be long ago in the rear view mirror. Your established high performance brood stock is proof this can happen.

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If he has the correct genetics, it they will be 17" long.
Cody Note - some of his YP brood stock were 19" long. I am eagerly awaiting the rest of the story as the saga continues.

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I am hoping Snipe's genetically superior YP can stand some slightly higher temperatures. If I can get my YP pond built this year, I will try to stock some next spring.

However, I am farther south in Kansas AND at a lower elevation. I think my average temperature is about 5-6 degrees F warmer than his operation. I might have to perform some delicate aeration operations to keep the DO and temperatures just inside of the tolerable range.

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does your state recognize home grown hand fed YP from a private pond as an official state record? Maybe it is only in MI where recognized records only come from public bodies of water?

Last edited by canyoncreek; 02/14/22 02:28 PM.
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Snipe Offline OP
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Originally Posted by canyoncreek
does your state recognize home grown hand fed YP from a private pond as an official state record? Maybe it is only in MI where recognized records only come from public bodies of water?

Yes. It's a fair entry by KS standards. This was the 16th to best it and they just keep growing. I've had a few friends fish here but all but 1 of the 16 have been caught by me. The 1 fish, caught by my friend who is our region 1 NW Biologist, is also the gent that said smb and yp probably won't work here. He has very much changed his mind and I have sold some smb to them for other community projects in my region.

Last edited by Snipe; 02/14/22 02:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by azteca
Hello.

If it's possible, it would be interesting to see after how many generations the Yellow-perch could adapt completely to warmer temperature.

That you could possibly sell Yellow-perch in southern Kansas.

Notice, it may be a dream.
A+
I think this summer and next summer for Augie will tell a bit about these fish and how they will fair in slightly warmer waters.
I also think if stocked as 3-4" fish they have a better chance of adapting than stocking 8-10" fish, but I may be wrong.

Last edited by Snipe; 02/14/22 03:07 PM.
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I am waiting on ice-out with great anticipation.

With the exception of the one corner where I'm running a shallow ring diffuser, my pond has been under ice since the weather snapped off cold the 1st of January.

We had a couple warm days last week which melted the 7"-8" of snow that was on the ground. All of that runoff coupled with cold nighttime temps has actually
caused a substantial increase in the thickness of the pond ice.

Air temps are all over the place this time of year in Misery. The ice might all be gone by the weekend, and it might hang around until mid-March.

Either way, I will be ready to begin some hook and line sampling as soon as I have open water.

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Originally Posted by Snipe
Originally Posted by canyoncreek
does your state recognize home grown hand fed YP from a private pond as an official state record? Maybe it is only in MI where recognized records only come from public bodies of water?

Yes. It's a fair entry by KS standards. This was the 16th to best it and they just keep growing. I've had a few friends fish here but all but 1 of the 16 have been caught by me. The 1 fish, caught by my friend who is our region 1 NW Biologist, is also the gent that said smb and yp probably won't work here. He has very much changed his mind and I have sold some smb to them for other community projects in my region.

Biologists who adapt their thinking push innovate ideas forward.

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