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Gotcha, just didn't wanna kill the little fellers.

jeffhasapond #482104 11/03/17 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
GREEN SUNNIES!!!! I likes my green sunnies. Can you tell that I'm the third member of the Green Sunfish Fan Club?

Like DIED I have sunfish soup in my pond. I purchased my property with an existing old pond. There had never (as far as I can tell) been any pond management of any sort. My pond had Large Mouth Bass (stunted) and Green Sunfish in it already. I have what I would call a healthy population of GSF.

I agree with DIED, pound for pound, I think GSF have got to be one of the most agressive fighting fish. They will hit a lure like a freight train and fight like crazy. Mine love a "bumble bee" top water lure or a "Rooster tail" lure. Compared to other sunfish of a similar size they have HUGE bass-like mouths.

My pond is a perfect illustration that the GSF by itself will not provide a forage base sufficient to support a healthy bass population. The bass will stunt. That is exactly why I added Bluegill and RES. Actually I added the BG for forage base and the RES to eat the annoying snails.

What will the effect of trying to maintain GSF, BG and RES in a pond with LMB? I'll tell you in a couple of years. I posted my concerns about hybridization and it seemed to me that the general consensus was that since the various sunfish spawn at different temperatures and as long as your water was not completely murky the likely hood of genetics destruction is not very high. Seems like common sense. Could there be some hybridization - - sure, will this cause each of the populations to deteriorate into a mongrel fish - - unlikely. But I'm no expert so don't quote me. I'm just a numbers monkey trying to have fun with my pond. laugh


To show the intensity of just what GSF genetics will do in a pond, the first picture below shows the intense heat being generated around the gills as this fish exhibits its anger at the audacity of me catching it. And this is not even a pure GSF, but a hybrid with some much more docile BG genetics.

But I talked it down before something really bad happened to me. I told the angry sunfish that its picture would be proudly displayed in the hallowed halls of the Pond Boss Forum.

The second picture showed the intense gill heat subsided, allowing me to angle another day with all my fingers and limbs intact.

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I think the brighter color means that it is trying to sucker you into putting a finger close enough to bite.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
snrub #482110 11/03/17 08:10 AM
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When that guy gets a little bigger, you'll be wishing for chain mail gloves on both hands when you unhook him.

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Look at that face! I think if you bent down a little closer it would jump up and slap you! Was it feeding time? I look similar when I'm pulled away from a meal...it's obvious its been eating well. lol


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"Their more elongated shape make them pretty easy for bass to control. Now, in a sunfish only pond, it goes back to your goals. "

Many years ago I had permission to fish a large ranch in Oklahoma. The ponds on the ranch that I fished all had GSF and none that I fished had bluegill. Most ponds also had large populations of small bass. A typical green sunfish was comparable in weight to a typical bass or perhaps a bit heavier. There was one pond (about 1/3 acre) that had no bass. Even so it had many harvest size GSF greater than 8". This would never happen in a bluegill only pond but 8" GSF have a large enough gape to consume 2" YOY GSF. Maybe equivalent to a 6" bass for gape but having much greater weight (and consumption needs). With enough of them, GSF can control themselves.

Here is the catch. If you harvest them, the average size of the population will decline. At least that was my experience where I had great fishing for a year or two before the big ones were not replacing themselves sufficiently to control recruitment. I realized it was my harvest that caused the decline and I sought to correct it by moving a dozen 8-10 in bass in the fall. The next Spring those bass had grown to ~ 13" and were much larger than the average bass of the pond from which they came. I released all bass that day and it was the last time I fished that pond due to moving to another state. Today I would bet that it is more like the typical pond in the area where there are small bass and nice GSF. That seems to be the trend with the combination in that neck of the woods. These are very productive fisheries however and it isn't bad combination if one likes to keep LMB 10+ " and 8" plus GSF for eating. These ponds are able to sustain heavy cropping of these classes of fish and are fun to fish.


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Been giving some thought as to perhaps why GSF might make growing trophy LMB more difficult in combination with BG. They might reduce the efficiency of the food chain when they consume YOY BG. GSF might only gain 1 oz for every 5 oz of BG. That 1 oz when the GSF is eaten by a LMB will only grow ~ .2 oz of LMB. They might highjack the food chain so to speak (like a production tax) reducing the efficiency by which the BG can feed the LMB.

GSF are able to consume GSF YOY at much longer lengths than BG can consume BG YOY. This may be at least one reason as to why BG are better producers of food for LMB. GSF can also spawn multiple times but at 2" don't exceed the gape of 7" GSF. On the other hand, I have observed 2" BG just hanging around >9" BG with no apparent fear. In comes a LMB of the same length and they keep their distance.

With panfish as a goal they might not interfere if LMB are able to recruit well enough to keep the LMB size structure concentrated with <12" LMB. I've seen LMB recruit in high numbers in the presence of GSF but the ponds were weedy and that may be the difference. One of the best BG ponds I've ever fished is right below my Dad's house in OK. I have never fished it that I didn't catch at least 2 BG or BG X GSF that exceed 10". So at least in its case, GSF might improve panfishing for BG.

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/27/18 01:18 AM.

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A gsf is a cross or mutt. I like them. They only spawn once per year and, especially in the presence of bass are unlikely to over run a pond. They can’t keep up with bg multiple spawns and cause damage.

I’ve often asked what happens when this mutt back crosses, over several generations, with other sunfish? Do they also only spawn annually?

A couple of years ago I caught a huge one, probably 11 inches, and that guy/gal is the biggest sunfish I’ve ever caught. The only gsf I saw in it was the green area on the jaws. The rest was pure bg. They fight, when hooked, differently than bg.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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I've heard multiple times that GSF only spawn once a year, and that may be true, but what I see in mine is their spawn doesn't seem to be influenced as greatly by moon fazes like BG. I've got GSF on beds that have been there since the first part of May. I've only seen them move off twice, and both times was due to the shallows cooling off. As soon as it warms back up, they're right back on the bed. At this rate, theyll spawn all summer.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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I've always liked fishing for GSF so I would have to say that I like the fish as well smile. As to multiple spawns, I have read conflicting information about it. I think it can depend on climate, fish condition, and water condition. I finally settled that it might be common in the South when I read this from the Texas Parks and Wildlife.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild/species/greensunfish/

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/10/24 09:07 AM.

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I agree jpsdad. I put three 10-12" LMB in my mutt pond a month or so ago. NOT because I wanted to raise big bass, but as a control measure against overpopulation. I see them regularly harassing the "perch" and expect that they will eventually get to a size that warrants removal. Hopefully, the GSF will allow at least minimal recruitment of LMB so I don't have to restock larger ones later. I hope if I can somewhat control the perch #s, I'll benefit with decent sized BG, GSF and RES.

Time will tell I guess.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Count me in the minority - I like the GSF. I now have a pond full of mutant GSF/RES crosses....jury is still out on the growth potential but they sure are fun to catch.


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Much easier to catch than pure RES too.


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Mike,

You only transferred 3 LMB so LMB recruitment depends in part on whether you have both sexes. Alot will depend on whether the panfish harass a spawning attempt sufficiently to ruin it. Here is what I can assure you of. If you do nothing from here and those 3 bass are all females, you will grow some huge bass. You may be reporting lengths of 18" next year this time and high RW. Harvest one of them and in a 1/4 acre pond you might grow one of the two remaining to >10 lbs.

With large panfish as a goal, a few more LMB might improve the chances of an LMB spawning success next year.

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/27/18 10:18 AM.

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Originally Posted By: dlowrance
Count me in the minority - I like the GSF. I now have a pond full of mutant GSF/RES crosses....jury is still out on the growth potential but they sure are fun to catch.

Originally Posted By: snrub
Much easier to catch than pure RES too.



I am curious as to what works best as fishing methods to catch this cross. Some literature describes them still retaining a tendency eat snails and also utilizing the pelagic areas. dlowrance, I would very much like to see a color photo of your hybrids so I might understand what they look like in color.


Illinois did some research on RES male X GSF female as parental stocking and the results were remarkable blowing away all prior attempts to maximize harvest yields. I seem to have lost the link (though have the paper) ... I found the link here at pondboss and it may have been ewest that posted it.

Just located it ... numerous websites sell it but it is public domain ... some authors expressly forbid their papers to be resold.

https://tinyurl.com/yalrwns6

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/27/18 12:46 PM.

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I know it's possible that they all be ladies, but I've got a 33.36% chance that one of them is male...lol. I waited until after the spawn to get them on purpose so they could feed up and get acclimated well before next spring. I see the largest of them regularly. It looks really good and appears to be even broader than when I put it in the pond already. I plan to add maybe 3 more between now and early fall, so my odds of getting a male in the mix goes up a little bit. As I said, they weren't stocked to be trophies, I already have an 8# LMB and 7-2 SMB on the wall. They're strictly crowd control. So far they're doing a fine job. I don't intend to let them get too big as their purpose in life is to thin out the little ones so the bigger perch can get even bigger.

Last edited by Mike Whatley; 06/27/18 11:46 AM.

.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Mike, I originally suggested some odds based on sex probabilities but I was sure that I was wrong so I edited it out. After thinking about it I think the approach would be to determine the probability that all fish are the same sex (either male OR female). If 1 fish the probability is 100%, if 2 fish the probability is 50%, for 3 fish the probability is 25%. The probability that the 3 fish sample is two sexes then is the remaining probability. So even with only 3 fish you stand a 75% chance that you have two sexes. If you add 3 additional fish the probability will increase to ~96.8% that you have both sexes and those are excellent odds smile.

It will be interesting to know how big your original stockers get by this time next year.

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/27/18 12:11 PM.

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wow! an eleven year old thread! awesome

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Some excellent work in this thread on GSF.
















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Originally Posted By: Mike Whatley
I've heard multiple times that GSF only spawn once a year, and that may be true, but what I see in mine is their spawn doesn't seem to be influenced as greatly by moon fazes like BG. I've got GSF on beds that have been there since the first part of May. I've only seen them move off twice, and both times was due to the shallows cooling off. As soon as it warms back up, they're right back on the bed. At this rate, theyll spawn all summer.


One spawn pre year does not mean only one spawning time. Some may spawn in May and others in June but different fish. The are good studies on BG that were followed and studied both visual (boat or wading) and underwater (by by divers). Sometimes we refer to rolling spawns and there are several threads using that name.

Also fish may be driven off the beds (deferred spawn)and retain eggs and spawn later. That is still one spawn.

Last edited by ewest; 06/27/18 01:16 PM.















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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Originally Posted By: dlowrance
Count me in the minority - I like the GSF. I now have a pond full of mutant GSF/RES crosses....jury is still out on the growth potential but they sure are fun to catch.

Originally Posted By: snrub
Much easier to catch than pure RES too.



I am curious as to what works best as fishing methods to catch this cross. Some literature describes them still retaining a tendency eat snails and also utilizing the pelagic areas. dlowrance, I would very much like to see a color photo of your hybrids so I might understand what they look like in color.


Illinois did some research on RES male X GSF female as parental stocking and the results were remarkable blowing away all prior attempts to maximize harvest yields. I seem to have lost the link (though have the paper) ... I found the link here at pondboss and it may have been ewest that posted it.

Just located it ... numerous websites sell it but it is public domain ... some authors expressly forbid their papers to be resold.

https://tinyurl.com/yalrwns6



In my little pond the answer to 'what will catch them' is darn near anything. They don't have much in the way of predators yet (WE is the only predator I stocked, but unfortunately I had one LMB spawn....so there's a bunch of small LMBs). They definitely still focus on 'snail' type shapes, just ask my kids when they swim in there - moles and nipples are just beat UP if they float for more than a few seconds.

I'll do my best to take some pics this weekend - ewest asked me for some weeks ago and I've been slacking in that area. I'll start a new thread with a bunch of pics ASAP.


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Originally Posted By: snrub
Much easier to catch than pure RES too.


No doubt about that! They're a TON easier to catch....and their growth rate seems better than either species alone. So far I'm really liking that cross. Except when I go swim in the pond.....need to start wearing a wetsuit....


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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Originally Posted By: dlowrance
Count me in the minority - I like the GSF. I now have a pond full of mutant GSF/RES crosses....jury is still out on the growth potential but they sure are fun to catch.

Originally Posted By: snrub
Much easier to catch than pure RES too.



I am curious as to what works best as fishing methods to catch this cross. Some literature describes them still retaining a tendency eat snails and also utilizing the pelagic areas. dlowrance, I would very much like to see a color photo of your hybrids so I might understand what they look like in color.


Illinois did some research on RES male X GSF female as parental stocking and the results were remarkable blowing away all prior attempts to maximize harvest yields. I seem to have lost the link (though have the paper) ... I found the link here at pondboss and it may have been ewest that posted it.

Just located it ... numerous websites sell it but it is public domain ... some authors expressly forbid their papers to be resold.

https://tinyurl.com/yalrwns6


I fish 90% of the time for BG (or hybrids or GSF), maybe 5% for RES and the rest for bass. Probably half to two thirds of the time I fish for pan fish this is the bait I use.
Berkley Gulp Alive Waxie

John F turned me on to these. Occasionally I will use white or the Gulp maggots or worms just to switch it up, but most of the time these waxies pull in one BG right after another. 1/32 or 1/64 oz jig for a hook (they do not swallow the jigs as bad as regular hooks). I catch RES on these too.

As far as hybrids biting this is my experience. GSF and hybrids with GSF genes are more aggressive than BG towards biting something on a hook. If the bite is difficult I will catch a disproportionate number of GSF and HBG. As soon as I start fishing a spot it is not uncommon that three fourth of the first several fish caught will be HBG or GSF. Then I go to catching almost all BG.

If a person fished my pond and stopped at 6 fish he might swear all I had in the pond were HBG and GSF. But in reality they probably comprise less than 5%. They are just that much more aggressive to bite.

I like HBG. If it is a bad fishing day (rare but I do have them) the HBG and a few GSF will nearly always oblige.

Last edited by snrub; 06/27/18 04:22 PM.

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Jpsdad,
I had to read your post on percentages 3 times before I caught your logic (I was about to call you out for using common core math!). I do plan on adding at least a couple more LMB before fall in hopes of an at least minimally successfull LMB spawn so those minor leaguers can be kept in their place.
To answer your question about how big they'll be by this time next year is...over 15" is getting culled. I may change my mind by then tho if this biggest bass shows tendencies to become a bruiser. But I won't keep but 1 BIG fish. They'll eat all my better perch.

Eric,
I was considering a rolling spawn as I knew not all fish go on the bed at the same time, but I swear I've been watching at least 5 males guarding for over 6 weeks now. It's a good thing they at least sample some of the feed I throw at them. I lost one of my biggest GSF recently because he wouldn't eat ANYTHING. I'm guessing it was at least 7". That being said, I do have a new crew of playboys doing their thing as well, but they're smaller fish. I can keep a close eye on most of them as my spawning area is really limited and visibility is around 3'. I'm not sure just how deep either species will spawn, but the GSF have an affinity for having their dorsal fins breaking water. Both GSF and BG right next to each other. This bunch of BG appear to be mostly around 4". My bigger bulls must have decided to sit this full moon out.

Last edited by Mike Whatley; 06/27/18 04:50 PM.

.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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I can attest to the aggressiveness of GSF too!! I just got thru feeding and my 10" common snapping turtle decided he was gonna stroll thru the spawning ground, just looking for a missed pellet here and there. That was a BIG MISTAKE on his part. Poor guy got seriously abused. I mean "In your face" abuse!!!


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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