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Yeah you are not kidding!! We went up last year for a week at Christmas. We got there on December 20th and there was probably 3-4' on the ground. I have heard the Water Resources Depts around there are starting to freak out. It makes for an easier year for the fish to survive but not an accurate representation of what I would be facing in an average year.


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This is definitely a learning curve project. You will not find a lot of experienced experts for your specific project. My opinion is for your size of 'pond' it is better to use the larger compressor to circulate more water for a shorter period each day. The diffusers in the deepest water will move more water volume per diffuser due to height of the rising water column compared to a similar sized diffuser in shallower water.

It does not surprise me that the windmills are struggling to maintain open water which helps a lot to explain why your trout have been dying each winter.


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Got it. Thanks, Bill!


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So here is what has been going on for the last couple weeks. I am attaching one pic of current conditions and an older pic for a reference of where all diffusers are placed.

For some reason now it seems like the single and dual diffusers are struggling to cut through the ice (except, inexplicably, the one single open in the pic).
-The quad has a great hole open every day (~20' deep).
-The dual diffuser hole, left of the quad hole, now seems to only make it to the slush stage every day. It has not made it to open water since 12/21. (~16' deep)
-The single diffuser that has the open hole in the pic was barely able to open a small hole earlier this month and now it has opened up considerably. Maybe coincidence but it seemed like this single diffuser starting making a better hole AFTER some more snow accumulated on top of the ice. (~8-10' deep)
-There are still two other single diffusers running that aren't even making the snow gray anymore. (One in back left of pic 6-8' deep and one in middle right of pic next to the quad ~16' deep)

Another confusing development. In the foreground of the pic, there is an area of graying snow that seems to possibly indicate some of that air is affecting the ice far from the diffusers. Same thing is going on even more so in the far back left of the pic.

We have had several VERY windy days up there. A few of them were consecutive. 30-40mph winds and the windmill diffusers aren't showing any evidence of progress of being able to open a hole. In the same windy scenarios last year at a MINIMUM some gray snow would start to show up and that was when we had a ton more snow.

I am assuming the colder water temps is making it harder for the diffusers to cut through the ice??? I am assuming the lack of snow on top of the ice this year is adding to the colder water temps? Can't explain why the one single diffuser is working so well and the dual, in deeper water, can't clear the slush and the other singles are showing no effect in the snow.

Current pic


Diffuser placement. Two closest diffusers are windmills.

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/28/17 09:03 AM.

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Very interesting progress. One of a couple things may be happening to allow the single diffuser to produce an open hole each day. 1. This diffuser may be receiving more air than other diffusers and more air means more bubbles, more bubbles means more water movement. 2. The air line to other diffusers has air blockage thus more air is forced to operating diffusers. If the check valve on the diffuser is leaking water will drain into the airline and when the airline is full of water an ice plug will freeze at the water line. If airline is not below ground freeze depth condensation could collect in a valley of the airline and freeze a plug. No snow early in the winter means deep frost in the ground.

If the quad diffuser operates all winter and trout survive, IMO minimally, you need only to operate it and another diffuser all winter. Low amounts of air to other diffusers may indicate they do not have enough water movement to keep open water. It also possible the other diffusers are not operating???

Do you regularly clean the windmill diffusers each fall?. If check valve on the diffuser leaks ice plugs freeze in the airline. Do you have freeze controls with alcohol on your windmills?. Do you have pressure relief valves on the windmills?


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I was wondering also if he needed so many fusers running? The main goal here is to keep a 20 plus or so foot open area correct? He really doesn't need 6 of them. A good backup to the main quad though like Bill said would be a good idea for sure. In your situation you got to have a backup!! So glad it's working for you that pond and land is SOOO cool if you can get fish to survive the winter it's all cake from there!! smile Great Job WB



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IIRC you reported water temp not long ago. Do you know what the water temp profile looks like now?

Just curious...Do you know if there is permafrost in the area? If yes, how deep does the active layer (the soil that thaws in the summer) go?

Last edited by Bill D.; 12/28/17 08:24 PM. Reason: After Thought

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Bill Cody-Thanks for the input!

RC - I used to think the main goal was to keep a hole open, but the number I have heard a few times is 10% of the lakes surface needs to be open water! Not sure if that is accurate or not. At this point, I am not sure if just keeping a hole open will get the fish through the Winter or not.

Bill D - glad you asked!!! I actually do have a little info on the water profile now!!!

My buddy actually went up to the cabin today. Due to the lack of snow, he was able to drive his Polaris Ranger all the way to the lake!

May have figured out part of the problem. We had a lot of built up condensation in the lines. He blew all of the condensation he could get to come out of one of the unused valves. Maybe that gets us through another 6 weeks or so and he can get up there to do it again. He did say the plume from the quad looked like it had improved after he drained the line. Maybe the pics over the next couple days will show some holes reopening. I had thought most of the condensation would push on through to the lake. I guess I have a bigger dip in the line than I realized. Next Summer I will have to re dig the last part of that line and put it on grade all the way into the lake. That should permanently solve the condensation issue.

He did not have any tools up there to pull lines off the valves to see if any were frozen up. He will be headed back up in a week or so though.

On a positive note, he grabbed the DO meter and got some data!! He chainsawed two holes in the ice to measure. One hole right off the peninsula which is fairly close to the diffusers. A second hole on the far end of the lake closest to the cabin which is as far away from a diffuser as you can get. Both holes produced almost exactly the same numbers!

Peninsula - 6.63 PPM and 34.7 degrees @ 4' deep
Far end of lake - 6.65 PPM and 34.9 degrees @ 6' deep

I don't like the fact that we have dropped from 8.7 in early November to 6.6 in late December, but maybe that is to be expected.


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
.....

Just curious...Do you know if there is permafrost in the area? If yes, how deep does the active layer (the soil that thaws in the summer) go?


I added this question above as an after thought so you might have missed it.


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
.....

Just curious...Do you know if there is permafrost in the area? If yes, how deep does the active layer (the soil that thaws in the summer) go?


I added this question above as an after thought so you might have missed it.



Sorry Bill, I didn't see that. There is no permafrost up there that I know of.


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody

Do you regularly clean the windmill diffusers each fall?. If check valve on the diffuser leaks ice plugs freeze in the airline. Do you have freeze controls with alcohol on your windmills?. Do you have pressure relief valves on the windmills?


Bill, sorry I forgot to answer this part. I clean the diffusers when I get there in July and clean them again in September just for good measure. I do not have freeze controls on the windmills. So far it has never been an issue up there for my windmills or the other windmills on the mountain. Maybe this year is just different because of the lack of snow. Both windmills do have pressure relief valves.

Here is an interesting pic from yesterday. My buddy said that around the peninsula, near the aeration, the ice was only 4-5" thick. The ice on the far side of the lake was much thicker. Here is the piece they cut out.



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For the quad diffuser or any diffuser to keep open water with that much ice thickness is testimony for how well aeration helps during ice cover. The diffuser at 20 ft deep not only adds some DO to the pond and spreads it long distances, it provides some open water. Open water results in clear ice when the diffuser is not operating. Open water and clear ice allows microscopic algae (phytoplankton) to photosynthesize and make DO. That amount of DO can equal or exceed the DO produced by the bubbling of the diffuser. If the winter aeration can maintain at lease 4ppm DO in all the pond the trout will survive well.


Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/29/17 01:44 PM.

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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Bill Cody-Thanks for the input!

Peninsula - 6.63 PPM and 34.7 degrees @ 4' deep
Far end of lake - 6.65 PPM and 34.9 degrees @ 6' deep

I don't like the fact that we have dropped from 8.7 in early November to 6.6 in late December, but maybe that is to be expected.


Bill - What do you think about these numbers? The ~2.0PPM drop in DO is bothering me. Do you think it is acceptable/expected?


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Literature indicates that 4ppm DO is stressful for trout. However when the water is below 40F trout respiration decreases and IMO they can/will survive well in water at 4ppm and sometimes less due to the lower cold temperatures. Spring thaw will tell the rest of the story.

I think the trout from ice cover to late December will move throughout the pond and "recognize" the DO is slightly higher near the diffuser and open water. This should provide a DO refuge that is recognizable by the trout. I suspect when DO in the remote areas of the pond becomes stressing, the trout will collect or gather around the influence of the quad diffuser.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/29/17 01:51 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
...... Open water and clear ice allows microscopic algae (phytoplankton) to photosynthesize and make DO. .....



Bill,

Is this process affected as water temperature drops and approaches 32?


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I have some results from my buddy draining the condensation from the line. When he got there yesterday the PSI guage on the pump was reading over 20 PSI! He didn't think to check the PSI guage after he was done draining the line, but he will be back up there again in a few days. We do have some results though. So far, the pump is using 25% less power today than it was yesterday. Was averaging ~1,500 watts before and is at ~1,100 watts today! The remote cam pic is in as well and shows some big improvements in the diffusers that were struggling! Built up condensation had to be the problem.

As a temporary solution to get me through this Winter I am going to get him up there once every 30 days to drain the line again. I am hoping getting the pump back up to normal operation will raise our DO back up or at least stop the decline.

I can't get Imgur to upload todays pic. I will post an updated pic when available.

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/29/17 04:02 PM.

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On each trip when the lines are drained, have him take along 3-4 bottles rubbing alcohol (91% Walmart). Iced lines can be cleared of ice by pouring about 1/2 to a cup of alcohol into the line and allowing it to soak for several minutes. That small amount of alcohol will not hurt the pond ecology. Rubbing alcohol is what is used in the windmill freeze control tanks. The mechanism on the tank releases a little bit of alcohol into the airline when an ice plug forms.

Lot of species, especially those in the groups Chrysophyta (golden browns) and Bacillarophyta (diatoms), grow well in cold water. I've seen a bloom of Chrysococcus occur in 34F-36F water when the aerator was operating keeping water open.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/29/17 08:14 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
...
Lot of species, especially those in the groups Chrysophyta (golden browns) and Bacillarophyta (diatoms), grow well in cold water. I've seen a bloom of Chrysococcus occur in 34F-36F water when the aerator was operating keeping water open.


Thanks Bill!

I was wondering whether the drop in DO could be partially attributed to reduced phytoplankton activity with the water temp now down to 34+ F. Sounds like that is not the case.

Absolutely awesome thread! I am always looking forward to updates. WbuffetJr IMHO you have to do a PBM article! smile


Last edited by Bill D.; 12/29/17 09:38 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
On each trip when the lines are drained, have him take along 3-4 bottles rubbing alcohol (91% Walmart). Iced lines can be cleared of ice by pouring about 1/2 to a cup of alcohol into the line and allowing it to soak for several minutes. That small amount of alcohol will not hurt the pond ecology. Rubbing alcohol is what is used in the windmill freeze control tanks. The mechanism on the tank releases a little bit of alcohol into the airline when an ice plug forms.
I will definitely get him to do that! Thanks for the all the info!

Originally Posted By: Bill D.

Thanks Bill!
Absolutely awesome thread! I am always looking forward to updates. WbuffetJr IMHO you have to do a PBM article! smile
Thank you for following, Bill. Brian and I are going to put something together for sure!

Here is yesterdays pic. Already a lot of improvement in this pic.
After looking real close it looks like the quad hole got a little bigger as well. Todays pic will hopefully show more improvement.


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Increased air volume and more bubbling action definitely make a difference which is why I suspected the other diffusers were getting reduced air flow. I am very interested to see how low the water temperature gets this winter in the well aerated pond. The data will provide lots of good baseline information.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/30/17 11:57 AM.

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Sorry, I am trying not to post too much, just excited! We are destroying some ice! Ton of progress in only two days after draining the line! Even the windmills seem to be kicking in. I will have updated DO and Temp data next week.


Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/30/17 04:54 PM.

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Post away. The forum has been half dead lately with posts in the right "recent posts" column staying there sometimes a day.

Yours is an interesting project because it is so different challenges than most of us face. Because we do not often reply does not automatically mean we are not following along.

Last edited by snrub; 12/30/17 05:13 PM.

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wb jr - It is very educational that you are providing good documentation for your solar aeration project in harsh winter conditions.


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
wb jr - It is very educational that you are providing good documentation for your solar aeration project in harsh winter conditions.

Originally Posted By: snrub
Post away. The forum has been half dead lately with posts in the right "recent posts" column staying there sometimes a day.

Yours is an interesting project because it is so different challenges than most of us face. Because we do not often reply does not automatically mean we are not following along.


10-4. Thanks fellas. Just don't want to be a "Recent Posts" hog.

Pic from today. After a few more really windy days in a row the big windmill is finally kicking in (the big wet spot in the foreground of the pic). Thinking maybe a lack of aeration in that spot let the ice get really thick. Maybe close to as thick as the chunk they cut out. Must've just taken a certain amount of sustained wind to finally cut through the ice. Either way, hopefully it stays for a while. Seeing more progress in the solar diffusers as well. The plume from the quad is actually visible in the pic. Still expecting the area around the quad to break open more. There is a dual diffuser to the left of the quad hole and a single to the right.


Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/31/17 03:28 PM.

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My buddy went up to the lake again this morning. Drained the line and said almost no condensation came out. That's great BUT it has only been one week week. Good thing is the pump is still drawing ~25% less power than before he drained so everything is working better. He got this pic around 9am so diffusers had only been running for one hour and hadn't cut through the ice yet.



This is the remote cam pic at 12:09pm and it appears the quad is through the ice, but hard to tell for sure. Notice the complete lack of snow!! Supposedly have some snow on the way. We will see if it amounts to anything.



I did have a total of 9 Vertex discs running. I had him shut off one of the single discs so that the other discs would receive more air. I think the quad will absorb most of the extra air and I am fine with that. He took DO readings from two spots again. This time he walked 10 yards out off the far shore and drilled a hole. He said the ice there was ~18-19" thick. Ice by the peninsula was still only 4-5" thick. With him reducing the aeration run time by one hour last trip, I felt better about having each diffuser getting more air now to hopefully chew through the ice easier. He is planning to go back up around February 10th to drain the condensation from the line again. If we need to we can close off another single diffuser at that time. Will definitely be increasing aeration run time by at least one hour for a total of 6 hours at that time as well due to more available sunshine/energy for the solar.

On to the data. After one week with the pump producing correctly again we had a slight decrease in water temp and a very small increase in DO. Will be interesting to see DO numbers from February with a full 4-5 weeks of unimpeded aeration.



Last edited by wbuffetjr; 01/04/18 04:45 PM.

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