Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Water chemistry Low PH

I've done some preliminary PH test in my new 1/3 acre pond. The PH seems to be around 5.75. I was wondering if adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) would help or be detrimental in any way.

I would suggest ag lime.

Joe,
If you are comfortable with the accuracy of your measurement, determine the approx. amount (acre/feet) of water you have in your pond and get with an ag lime supplier for the amount needed. With ag lime its really hard to put too much.
Charlie

I'm not familiar with ag lime. Is this agriculture lime? Would this be the same stuff I get at tractor supply for my garden which is pulverized lime?

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/nalcbrite-hi-calcium-lime-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005

Same stuff but instead of 280.00/ton, bulk is about $12-15/ton OR about $35-40/ton delivered and spread. Usually requires a min. amount of around 6 tons, but you can put what you need in the pond, and the rest in the water shed areas above pond

Thanks guys for all your help.

First thing I'm going to need to do is get some accurate measurements to determine just how much water is this pond.

Thanks again!

Is there fish in the pond?

Hydrated lime is much more effective per pound but can shock the fish.

I don't think there are many. A family of river otters have moved in and decimated the population. I've seen a school of 50 or so small bluegills but all attempts have hooking anything in the pond have turned up nil.

The wife is giving me grief about shooting the otters or they would be gone already. Something will have to give soon but I have some work to do on the pond before I stock it so I guess it's not hurting too much to let them be for a short time. Their burrow looks to be in a side bank and not the dam.

Muck issues, PH issues, otter issues, turbidity issues, yea... I got some work to do.

I dumped 400 lbs of powdered farm lime in a few spots around the pond. Not sure if this will be enough but I figure it will be a good start. I'll check the PH in a week or two and report back any changes.

JoeF you will likely discover that with a pH of 5.7 you need at least 1 ton of lime as a starting point. Once you get the alkalinity increased, a lime application will be needed every 3-4 yrs similar to many agricultural fields where farmers have to maintain good pH for crops.

Thanks Bill,

It's good to have a ball park figure like that to start working with. I need to get an accurate measure of volume of the pond so I can get good recommendations from you experts. I'm working on that.

I'm only able to take loads of bagged lime down to the pond in small trips but I thought a little at a time is better than nothing. Plus, I still have not got as in depth of water analysis as I would like yet but I was sure it would need some lime at least. I have some water samples from before the lime and an API Pond care Master Liquid Test Kit on order to get a more in depth idea of the water balance.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002DJNN0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'll be sure to report back my findings.

Thanks again for the tips. You guys Rock!

After about a week after dumping the lime I retested the water and at the time of testing it's looks to be up to a ph of around 7. I used a TDS meter and had a ppm of 47 so the PH is most likely varying quite a bit.

Here are the results from the test kit. From my limited knowledge the rest of the tests seem to be a sign of good water quality but would appreciate a second opinion.

I do plan to dump more lime at some point in the near future and would also like to do a better PH test where I take samples at morning, noon, and dusk.

We have a pond full of Catfish with heavy clay soil. After the big winter rains in California it was looking very turbid. In the past we have had great success adding Liquid Alum to clear things up. This time unlike many treatments before our Ph dropped like a rock to around 6. We know that is a common result with non buffered Alum, but this one caught us by surprise. Killed some fingerling size and shocked the bigger ones so much, it took them a week or more to start eating again. 6 weeks later Ph still low 6.4ish, after reading about our options we bought Sodium Bicarbonate dry to try and bring it up to more normal levels. Has anyone used this to raise ph? If so, did you apply it dry or make a slurry( we have a jon boat with a tank sprayer)? Is there a general rule for how much to add water volume to product? Thanks!

The first lime you add will do the most good. So even adding a partial amount will be beneficial. Then as you add more and get closer to the ideal amount the additional amounts add decreasing benefit.

At least that is the way it works when we lime fields. For example if a field requires 4000 pounds per acre of a given ECCE, even if a person can get 1000 pounds on that year it is very beneficial. Then the return on investment decreases as you approach the ideal amount for the remaining amount added.

Don't know if that made sense or not, but the point is even if you can only get a partial amount applied to your pond the very first you apply will do the most good.

Pondgirl, recommend you use ag lime instead of Sodium Bicarbonate. Take accurate measurements of your pond, including depth at numerous locations so you can get an idea of the volume of water you're dealing with and get back with numbers so the experts on here can make recommendations.

We already bought the Sodium Bicarbonate(can't return it) because we had read fish could be sensitive to the Lime and did not want to stress them anymore any harm to be done to go ahead and use it? We can buy Lime and add next...

Had the water tested by outside lab after Alum treatment and Ph fall 6 weeks ago:
Turbity 26.4
Alkalinity >10
Phosphorus 63.6
Ph 6.2(its up a little now)

Thanks!

Now trying to find liquid lime on the west coast, but no luck.
Does anyone know the type of industry that its is most used, to help narrow down the search? I have only been able to find powdered bagged here, which I am sure is messy and less able to spread evenly...

Pondgirl, How big is your pond? Have you calculated the surface acreage and average depth?

One liquid lime product, Calcis, is made by BioSafe specifically for ponds. Five Gallons equals one ton of Ag Lime derived from Calcite Limestone.

It is supplied in 2.5, 5, 30, 55, and 250 gallon containers and weighs almost 16 pounds per gallon and is shipped direct from the manufacturer.

Thanks, called them waiting for answer back, if it might already be available in Cali.

You're welcome,Pondgirl. I was just passing info that Rainman gave me when I was thinking about using liquid lime.

Why not use ag lime. Used by lots of farms.

Talked with Tom Warmuth, the guy marketing Calcis for BioSafe. He confirms that 5 gallons of the stuff equals 1 ton of ag lime. Ag lime is cheap, but difficult & expensive to apply. Calcis is expensive, apparently, but relatively cheap & easy to apply. You can even DIY applying calcis, if you don't mind work (heavy stuff).

Tom said that they are working with local outfits such as Windfield Solutions and Lochow. I'll get in touch with Lochow and see exactly how costly it is. My pond still needs some lime remediation with pH around 6.5, alkalinity/hardness in the 40s despite 4 tons ag lime per acre before it filled.

Pondgirl, I don't know if they have distributors in California, but it sounds like BioSafe is pushing nationwide. You might check with Tom about it.

Tom also mentioned that application needs to be pretty even across the entire pond surface to have the best effects. Try to apply during dry spells so it can settle to bottom undisturbed. Apparently Calcis starts working immediately, unlike ag lime. But unlike hydrated lime, tends not to shock fish with too abrupt changes in water chemistry.

Tom pointed out that liming not only helps phytoplankton & plants, it also benefits fish. Better disease protection & superior egg hardiness.

Anyway, I'll check on this and maybe give it a try. Should be interesting...

I am interested in knowing how 1 ton of ag lime can be concentrated into 5 gals of a liquid. Anyone have any unbiased info on the process/results/testing.

Good point. Somehow, 80 lb of liquid lime equals effectiveness of 2,000 lb of ag lime. Would be interested myself in how they do it, and testimonials from users. Calcis has only been available for one year, according to Tom Warmuth.

The equivalent in the ag industry is that the grind is so fine and the calcium pure that the immediate results is the pH raising capacity of that much ag lime. What they do not say is what acid neutralizing capability it has in a month, six months or a year.

It has been 20 years so memory fades but there were some similar claims for soil amendments for lime. But there was no longevity to them. The extension service did some testing on them and basically said they were very good products that cost way too much for what they did. Better to buy ag lime. That was for soil application.

Ag lime, in soil at least, breaks down over time. The finest particles do their job the quickest then the slightly larger particles keep helping the pH in acid soils over time.

We used to get a lime product that was actually a byproduct of cutting rock. It was fine like talcum powder. If you stepped off into a truck load of it you would sink up to your waist. It had a very high ECCE (effective calcium carbonate equivalent) and was a very good lime but it did not have the longevity of regular ag lime. The finer the grind and the less impurities in the limestone rock, the more effective the lime will be in changing the pH short term.

Quote for Calcis is $25 per gallon and we need a serious amount of gallons. Waiting on a price for pelletized Ag Lime to compare...no local delivery of Ag lime by truckload. Does anyone know how long it would take to see Akalinity rise with an Ag Lime product, Calsis rep says months?

My experience with ag lime was that it took months. In fact, full effect didn't occur for a year. But your mileage may differ, depending upon different soil & water conditions.

Interestingly, Calcis rep told me that they recommend adding 5 gallons per acre every year after the first large dose. Probably doesn't last as long as ag lime, if I had to guess.

I'm pretty sure it lasts a lot longer than lime dust, though. Very dense, twice that of water, so sinks to the bottom. Don't know what impact this may have on bedding fish...

That sounds right for ag lime on farm ground. We always figured months before we got much good and a year at least to see full effects.

Generally ag lime has a wide range of particle size. It goes through a grinder then sieves to sort anything out that is above a certain particle sizes. The ag lime remaining ranges from the finest particles up to the size of the sieve size. The very finest particles should do some immediate good with the larger particle size taking longer to get the good out of it.

I'm not sure how it works with pond water, but with ag land the natural progression is for ground to get more acidic over time (lower pH) for numerous reasons such as nitrogen application, etc. We always figured a land lime application was good for 6-8 years before the pH got to a point where it was economically needed again. The finest particles of the lime made the nearby correction and as the particle size increased it took care of longer term needs.

If that holds true for ponds then I would expect a product that was very active in the short term would likely need additional "shots" of it as time goes by, whereas ag lime with more capacity to buffer long term pH changes might not need to be done for years. This kind of makes sense if the liquid product suggests adding some each year.

Ag lime is nothing more than ground up rock. Limestone. The liquid stuff is something likely a lot more refined.

Ag lime will work immediately upon contact with the water for a small % of its effectiveness. My guess about 10% within a week using common ag lime (not pulverized powder but also not larger grains). The big effect ramping up over the next 6-8 mths with a bell curve of about 18 mths. It does depend however on the chemical traits of your water/land.

Eric, I am doing before and after water chemistry analysis on the 250 Gallons of Calcis I applied.

Here is the guaranteed minimum values off the label.....

Guaranteed Minimum Analysis
Calcium Carbonate* (CaCO3)................................72.5%
Magnesium Carbonate (MgCO3)..........................0.74%
Calcium (Ca)............................................................26.9%
Magnesium...............................................................0.3%
Calcium Carbonate Equivalent (CCE)....................73.3%
Calcium Oxide Equivalent (Ca)............................37.66%
Effective Neutralizing Value (ENV).......................73.3%
Suspended Solids.....................................................>70%
*Derived from: Calcitic lime - 1 gallon = 15.66 lbs,
contains 11.6 lbs of calcitic lime or 4.64lbs of Ca
Net Weight: 15.66 lbs per gallon
Particle Size Information
Percent solids passing –
200 mesh screen......................................................100%

Quality of Agricultural Limestone


Effective Calcium Carbonate (ECC) is evaluated on its ability to neutralize soil acidity, that is, to effect a change in the pH of the tillage layer of the soil within a specified time. Generally a three-year base is used.

The criteria used for determining quality of ag lime are:

1. Purity — neutralizing power as percent calcium carbonate.
2. Fineness of grind — measured by percent passing 8 and 50 mesh sieves.
3. Water content — does not directly influence ECC but it does influence the amount of material to apply.

Purity is determined by an A.O.A.C. (Association of Official Agricultural Chemists) procedure in the laboratory by finding out how much hydrochloric acid is needed to neutralize a known amount of liming material.

Fineness is determined by sieving an oven-dried sample through standard 8 and 50 mesh sieves.

1. Material coarser than 8 mesh — 10 percent effective.
2. Material passing 8, but held on 50 mesh — 40 percent effective.
3. Material passing 50 mesh — 100 percent effective.

Calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is not very soluble in water. One acre inch of water will dissolve about 100 pounds of lime. In order for calcium from lime to replace the exchangeable hydrogen on the soil complex, calcium cations must be in the soil solution. Equation 8 and Equation 9 show calcium coming into solution from lime and the replacement of H+ on the soil clay and organic matter particles.

Solid CaCO3 + 2H2 (dissolved) - Ca++ + CO2 + H2O (8)

Clay 2H + Ca-- --> Clay Ca + H- (9)

The rate at which lime goes into solution depends on surface area of the applied lime and the degree of incorporation into the soil. Research has shown little if any advantage to grinding lime material to pass sieves finer than 50 or 60 mesh. It costs about four times as much to grind material so that 100 percent will pass a 50 mesh screen than to grind so 50 to 60 percent passes a 50 mesh screen. The grinding expense is what makes fluid lime cost more. For equal amounts of ECCE (exchangeable calcium carbonate equivalent) lime, fluid lime material will usually raise the pH slightly faster initially; however, after the second year, there is no difference in pH increase. Remember, the quantity of lime (ECCE) to change the pH of a given soil is still the same, regardless if it is 60 percent ECCE ag lime, fluid lime or pelletized lime.

Water content must be considered when using byproduct or refuse liming materials and ag lime produced from “soft or porous” limestone. Sugar refuse lime may contain 30 percent water when it appears to be dry. Ag lime produced from soft rock may contain 10 percent water, especially if stockpiled for several months. Ag lime produced from hard rock seldom contains more than 2 percent water, even when stockpiled for a long time.

Ag lime laws have been passed by Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri and Kansas. These are basically labeling laws which require the vendor to guarantee the E.C.C.E (effective calcium carbonate equivalent) and moisture. Missouri also requires a guarantee of calcium and magnesium content. Ask for an analysis sheet before you buy lime. For information on Nebraska’s lime law, contact the State Department of Agriculture.

http://passel.unl.edu/pages/informationm...=9&maxto=10

Great explanation, Rainman. Thank you.

Keep in mind that you are treating the dirt (pond bottom ) not just water. The lime that is not absorbed by the water initially will improve the pond bottom ph and later the water. It looks like 1 gallon of Calcis = 15.66 lbs of ag lime. How does cost compare ?

Another tidbit of information is that once particle size gets much above what Rainman talks about the effectiveness almost completely vanishes. I don't remember what that size is. Lime has to be finely ground up to work.

We have several quarries within driving distance. The ones near us in Missouri tend to have higher ECCE ratings for two reasons. Those quarries grind finer and the rock tends to be more pure. The stuff we buy in Kansas will have some small gravel size rocks left when you throw it in the water. These particle sizes are innefetive as far as lime goes but if some piles up in an area the fish love it for bedding.

Lime in the Kansas quarries is somewhat of a byproduct of creating graded chrushed rock for black top highways and concrete. They grind the rock then sieve out the lime and fines for different grades. If they have more demand for lime they will grind harder or run material throuh the grinder additional times.

AB3, a common driveway rock, is about 1" stuff with fines left in (so it will pack). I don't know the percentage but I estimate it contains about 10% ag lime in the fines. I like to dump it out in piles near the shore. The lime portion helps the water and the gravel and larger size rocks the fish work up into beds. The same quarry provides all different sizes and grades of product all the way from the very fine lime up to shot rock. It all comes from the same limestone rock. Ag lime is just fine ground up calcium based rock that has been tested for effectiveness.

Excellent reminder, ewest...that is why I tell clients their water is just a reflection of the soils under and around it...

I’m confused. One post says 1 gallon of Calcis is equal to 400 lbs of Ag Lime



Another post says 1 gallon of Calcis is equal to 15.66 lbs of Ag Lime



That is a huge difference. Which number is correct?

BioSafe says that 5 gallons are equal in effectiveness to one ton of ag lime. In other words, 80 lb of Calcis has same impact on pH and alkalinity as 2,000 lb of ag lime.

How that is, I do not know.

Anthropic, most low grade Ag Limes only have about 100 pounds of total Calcium Carbonate and High grade Ag lime may have as much as 600 pounds. Unless the Ag Lime can pass 100% though a 50-80 mesh screen, it is not 100% available (a 100 mesh is more realistic for 100% available). To grind Limestone that fine would more than quadruple the price of "typical" Ag Lime. So, cheap Ag Lime that is only 40% effective may have as little 40 pounds of usable, available Calcium Carbonate in a full 2000 pounds of rock. Of that 40 pounds of available Calcium, only 5-10 pounds may actually have any neutralizing ability and you can double those available amounts in a ton for a "good" grade of Ag Lime, or 10-20 pounds of effective nuetralizing material per ton of Ag Lime.

As stated on the Label, Calcis passes 100% through a 200 mesh screen (200 holes per square inch). There is 58 pounds of readily available Calcitic Lime with 23.2 pounds per 5 gallons Calcium available, the neutralizing material.

Calcis also has a tremendously larger amount of surface area compared to Ag Lime, that is open to releasing anions to take the H out acids....Calcium itself does not neutralize, it's the metal oxide or carbonate that dissolves into water to produce an anion that attaches to a H+, Hydrogen ion to reduce acidity.


How Lime Works

So what is lime and how does it work? Liming materials are typically oxides (O2-), hydroxides (OH-), carbonates (CO32-) or silicates (SiO44−) of calcium (Ca) or magnesium (Mg). Some examples (with their chemical formulae) are calcitic lime (CaCO3), dolomitic lime (CaMg(CO3)2, quick lime (CaO), and hydrated lime (Ca(OH)2).

Many people mistakenly believe it is the calcium or magnesium that works to “lime” a soil (i.e. neutralize acidity), but this is not true. It’s the oxide, hydroxide, carbonate or silicate that removes the H+ ions from solutions and raises the soil pH. The lime reaction is a two-step process, where first the lime dissolves in solution (Eq. 1) producing an anion.

In the second step, the anion reduces the concentration of hydrogen ions (H+) in solution forming a water molecule.

Eric, current MAP (minimum advertised pricing) is as follows...

Priced Per GAL

2014-2.5 39 LBS 2.5 GAL...... $26.46
2014-5 78 LBS 5 GAL.......... $24.81
2014-30 470 LBS 30 GAL....... $23.74
2014-55 861 LBS 55 GAL....... $23.10
2014-250 4015 LBS 250 GAL.... $20.98

Here in Missouri, a lower mid Grade Ag Lime (Missouri legal minimum of 60% passing a 40 mesh) runs $28.50/ton, While a high grade Dolomite (80% passing a 60 mesh) out of Springfield MO runs 78.75/ton....both are FOB prices....Free delivery of the cheaper stuff with a 25 ton minimum, and a $10/ton spreading charge.....The High Grade stuff was $1200/30 ton delivery to my client....Plus renting a spreader truck, front loader, etc...

FWIW, Calcis is shipped for free for 60 gallon or larger orders

With travel, spraying 8 acres, multiple water testings, etc, total applied was $6300 for 250 gallons.

I'll add, it took about 3 hours to slowly cover the 8 acres while spraying....Had I washed in 50 ton of conventional Ag Lime from the barge at about 1200 pounds per run, it would have taken at least 2 full days to do, maybe 3. And, there is no comparison to the coverage consistency of the Calcis versus Ag Lime, since the Calcis readily disperses throughout the water column as it is sprayed and sinks.....Ag Lime will often get blasted into the water in spotty patches as it gets hit by the water spray, and there is no way to know exactly where each Ag Lime load stops and starts when applied.

Rex thank you for the great info. I'm gonna need to study this some more but it gives a lot of insight. The other thing I think I have seen you post was the equivalent of the bag lime to the ag lime. Showing it takes less tonnage of bags. So not all pricing is created equal. I need to lime mine so this is good timing.
I have seen pelletized in bags. Is the something to look for if I decide on going the bagged route? I haven't checked around yet but with all the rain and road work ag lime may be harder to find for a while.
Thanks
Dave

What do you guys think about this stuff? Says 2 1/2 gallons per 1 surface acre for pond use.

http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/cal-fl...M5C3hoCMqjw_wcB



Pretty descent price with the free shipping.

Thanks so much for the clear explanation! I think I'll go with Calcis, especially since part of the pond is flooded shallow wood that would be tough for a larger boat to navigate.

I'm gonna read this all again and several other good posts and don't want to hijack but my main objective would be to raise my alkalinity and I know these are related. But will this give comparable results in raising this as it does on ph? Most info is on raising ph.
Thanks
Dave

I had to LOL when reading this....since I carry 3 spare props with me on every job, and my skeg is almost non-existent.....

Rainman, you need a jet or mud motor.

I'd hate to think how expensive that would get, considering what the chemicals I spray do to trash pumps. I also install 2 or 3 engine water pumps a year....Hydrated Lime is not real friendly to impellers or seals...

The "Fine Print" from the Cal-Flo label under "Warranty and Disclaimer (final line).............

Statement for North Carolina: 2849 pounds of CAL FLO Liquid Limestone is equivalent to
2000 pounds of dry liming material (10.4 dry ponds/gallon).

...........An application rate can be whatever a company wants it to be, but the company clearly states that this is considerably less effective, pound for pound, than Ag Lime.

I'm pretty sure mud motors are air cooled. No water pump.

Ha Ha I had not read this all yet but at least they are honest...
but since I am wanting to use this in Missouri...

It says dry liming material. I wonder if they are referring to hydrated lime. If they're talking about AG lime the stuff would be more than worthless and no where near capable of the PH changes they claim.

Comparing the labels of Calcis and Cal Flo they seem to be comparable:

I found this as well that might add to the discussion. There are 2 parts.
http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/different_types_of_limestone_to_increase_substrate_ph

Correct.

Rex, did you get the water test results back yet? What were they?

As I have searched I also found this... http://www.profileevs.com/products/hydra.../neutralime-dry

Now I have been checking my PH and alkalinity, my PH is around 6.8 or so in the evening however my Alkalinity barely registers as I check it so I believe it is below 20.
I am working to get some ag lime in place but have not gotten there yet.
Is this product mentioned above more related to the Hydrated lime in such it will shock the system and have little affect on the alkalinity?
I know Rex has recently used the liquid lime but didn't know where this might fall.
Thanks
Dave

Compare ag lime to the products before you try one.

Just an update to my original post.

I dumped another 800 pounds of powdered lime in the pond a few weeks ago for a total of 1200 pounds. Had to bag it in as there are no quarries who supply lime within a hundred miles of here. Tested the PH on the far side of the pond and it tested with a PH of 7.25.

I'm sorry I've seen the charts before but can't seem to find them now. What's the optimum PH level for fish health?

IIRC 7.4 is the pH of fish blood and is the ideal # (average blood pH of 7.4 for fish as per SRAC). See -
https://srac.tamu.edu/serveFactSheet/112

Here are the charts. Focus on alkalinity not pH as alkalinity buffers large ph. swings while pH changes during the day.

I run a hydroseeder and use it all the time, so if you do a search under hydroseed supplies it might come up

how would I do the jar test with liquid lime or determine how much to spray on my pond since I have access to the seeder